H1N1 "Pandemic"

[Topaz]

Mass confusion out there about this vaccine and this report probably won't help but here's a report from Europe that started with their swine flu shots and how some people have died from the vaccine. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=27733

[Bryan]

Mass confusion out there about this vaccine and this report probably won't help but here's a report from Europe that started with their swine flu shots and how some people have died from the vaccine. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=27733

Several serious reactions to the vaccines here in Winnipeg this week, and they've only been doing the vaccinations for a couple of days. This kind of falls into the "why do they say that when it's so obvious to prove false" category since many public health officials have been matter-of-factly stating that adverse events are in the order of less than one in a million.

[bush_cheney2004]

Let me get this straight...

Are you suggesting that you can have an immunized person touch a surface containing a virus, then touch another surface, leaving the virus there to be picked up by someone (without ever getting sick themselves)?

Yes.....

Direct and indirect contact transmission

Direct contact transmission involves skin-to-skin contact (such as hand-to-hand) between an infected person and a susceptible person.

The proportion of influenza virus transmission caused by direct or indirect contact remains unknown; however, transmission by these routes can occur.

Influenza viruses can live for 24 to 48 hours on nonporous environmental surfaces and less than 12 hours on porous surfaces (see References: Bean 1982), indicating that transmission can occur when hands that touch contaminated surfaces subsequently come into contact with oral, ocular, or nasal mucosa. Fomite transmission appears to be rare

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/i...luoverview.html

[Wilber]

From the other articles I've read, that appears to be the point they are actually trying to make. Not that they have any knowledge that the flu vaccine is bad, rather that it's impossible to have the kind of certainty that public health officials are telling us that they have.

Actually they should be pretty certain about this one because they are targeting one particular strain.

[segnosaur]

Mass confusion out there about this vaccine and this report probably won't help but here's a report from Europe that started with their swine flu shots and how some people have died from the vaccine. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=27733

Ok, before we get concerned, keep in mind that the original source of this article was from the infowars site, run by Alex Jones. Jones is a conspiracy nut, who makes claims about things like 9/11 being an 'inside job' and other such conspiracy nonsense. As such, I would be very hesitant to trust the validity of anything that comes from that source.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ok, before we get concerned, keep in mind that the original source of this article was from the infowars site, run by Alex Jones. Jones is a conspiracy nut, who makes claims about things like 9/11 being an 'inside job' and other such conspiracy nonsense. As such, I would be very hesitant to trust the validity of anything that comes from that source.

Hey....I wonder if Alex Jones got vaccinated.

[maple_leafs182]

guys, alex jones isnt a nut

We're looking to medicine to make us healthy, medicinal doctors know nothing about getting healthy. You get sick because either you're not getting enough nutrients, or you're getting too many toxins. Health is a choice.

[bush_cheney2004]

guys, alex jones isnt a nut

We're looking to medicine to make us healthy, medicinal doctors know nothing about getting healthy. You get sick because either you're not getting enough nutrients, or you're getting too many toxins. Health is a choice.

I agree......it's important to have a good bowel movement each day.

[Wilber]

I agree......it's important to have a good bowel movement each day.

But for some it doesn't come from their bowels.

[maple_leafs182]

k, so you think medicine will make you healthy..

and eating healthy has no role in being healthy.

health is a choice.

[Smallc]

and eating healthy has no role in being healthy.

As is taking the shot. Living well won't save you from everything...and neither will medicine. Together they can save you from a great deal for a long time though.

[Wilber]

k, so you think medicine will make you healthy..

and eating healthy has no role in being healthy.

health is a choice.

There are great benefits to leading a healthy lifestyle but I have out lived a lot of people who have lived a lot healthier lifestyles than I.

[wyly]

There are great benefits to leading a healthy lifestyle but I have out lived a lot of people who have lived a lot healthier lifestyles than I.

as my Cardiologist friend said to me once when we were discussing the merits of running to stay healthy...."you can run three times a week until your knees wear out and die at 80 without functioning knees, or you can not run and die at 80 with functioning knees"

[Oleg Bach]

My did works in a fancey place where all the racket ball guys and tennis pros are ALL crippled...to hell with that - take a walk once in a while - Your body is a machine and it wears out - why help it along in these regards.

[Dave_ON]

what stats dave, those you make up? the CDC is saying flu deaths are up over normal numbers. Pediatric deaths where type of flu was confirmed H1N1 deaths are 4 times those of Influenza A...in fact there are three types of "seasonal" flus and numerous subtypes and H1N1 appears to be killing more than all of them combined...

CDC seasonal flu

Trends in the southern hemisphere disagree and the death toll was substantially less than expected. While not a perfect model there is little reason to believe it would be different here, that is except the media has had time to whip everyone into frenzy.

You seem to have missed THOSE stats there were posted on this very thread on several occasions. I believe you dismissed them as a “copy n’ paste”. I would suggest if you want people to take you seriously that you curtail the snide and flippant aspersions.

as demonstrated by your lack of research into stats you make it up as you go along or dig up the info from blogs that are as ill informed as you...the answer was already given in the thread but you weren't able to pick up on it...

I’m still waiting on you to quote me where I cited a blog or provided a link to one on this thread. The only links I have ever provided are from legitimate news sites that are quoting legitimate medical personal. Heretofore you’ve provided raw statistics from the CDC that has a small sample and very little data to go on to date. Nothing in the CDC report suggests there is any need to have the level of panic the media is inciting. What it does suggest is that this year’s “seasonal” flu is H1N1 and that due to heightened media awareness “reports” are up. The fact that is reported does not necessarily indicate that overall instances are up as not everyone who gets the flu reports it.

I noticed you completely ignored the article on the CBC I posted that shows how divided the medical community is on the matter and that many of them believe that even without the vaccine, we would not be in dire straits or even in the vicinity of it.

I think this quote sums it up nicely.

But Dr. Wright says that even considering a worst-case scenario, using that as the rationale for vaccination now makes no sense since this current vaccine probably wouldn't work against a future strain in any event.

He says the world's seen H1N1 play out in Australia, Argentina, and New Zealand and that it's clear the swine flu isn't that bad.

"We're giving the vaccine for something that isn't that severe and we don't know if it is effective. That's the story."

Dr. Alison McGeer, the head of infection control at Mount Sinai Hospital in Toronto, agrees about the flu not being that bad.

But I suppose you'll accuse both of these doctors of not knowing what they're talking about and "pretending to be all mature sophisticated adults"

you precieve hype where there is none then pretend to be all mature and sophisticated adult keeping calm in the storm...

I'm not pretending to keep calm, I am calm and with good reason. Considering that there is now a shortage of vaccine be it temporary or not it is highly unlikely that everyone or even the majority of the population will be vaccinated before we're smack dab in the middle of the flu season.

Medical experts have come out stating that the vaccination isn't even necessary, yet the media chooses to focus on and sensationalize every bit of information that comes out about swine flu. That's causing undue panic, and given the shortage this will only be exacerbated. Even in the highly unlikely event that this does turn into a real emergency, panic will not solve the issue yet there are those that insist on whipping others into frenzy.

[Oleg Bach]

Like I said- the war on terror has lost it's charm. So now it seems that the plague will have to do to jerk the peoples mind with fear - some ass hole knows this and will take advantage of it - Just like the Bushites did - I can't stand ass holes that manipultate the masses and get a boner doing it... sure there is disease - but the disease of fear is worse than any black death - real or imagined.

[M.Dancer]

Mass confusion out there about this vaccine and this report probably won't help but here's a report from Europe that started with their swine flu shots and how some people have died from the vaccine. http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=27733

According to that spurious news site, there hasn't been any proof the deaths are a result of the shot.

[M.Dancer]

guys, alex jones isnt a nut

But his clientel are...

[segnosaur]

Trends in the southern hemisphere disagree and the death toll was substantially less than expected. While not a perfect model there is little reason to believe it would be different here, that is except the media has had time to whip everyone into frenzy.

You're right... the death toll in places like Australia was a lot lower than expected. And, I agree that there is no need to panic. However, keep a few things in mind:

- Australia, New Zealand, etc. had few problems, but their flu season started a lot closer to the time the virus first appeared. In addition, they are geographically isolated from Mexico, the suspected source of the infection. Now that we're starting our influenza season, we might have it a little rougher, because we've got closer ties to mexico, and the virus has had several months to become entrenched prior to the full outbreak.

- Even if H1N1 turns out to be no worse than an 'average' seasonal flu, people will still die from it, others will get sick, and at least some of those sicknesses and deaths will have been prevented had we had widespread immunization.

I noticed you completely ignored the article on the CBC I posted that shows how divided the medical community is on the matter and that many of them believe that even without the vaccine, we would not be in dire straits or even in the vicinity of it.

I think this quote sums it up nicely.

But Dr. Wright says that even considering a worst-case scenario, using that as the rationale for vaccination now makes no sense since this current vaccine probably wouldn't work against a future strain in any event.

"We're giving the vaccine for something that isn't that severe and we don't know if it is effective. That's the story."

First of all, keep in mind that a quote from one doctor doesn't necessarily mean the "medical community is divided". Heck, the CBC could have looked high and low for the one competent doctor who had that opinion. And even if a lot of doctors did think the vaccine wasn't needed, your family MD is not necessarily an "expert" in epidemiology. They may be competent practicioners in medicine, but they don't spend their time looking at disease transmission through populations.

A news organization may want to present "both sides of the story", but sometimes "both sides of the story" don't exactly have equal standing.

Secondly, I have no idea who this Dr. Wright is. Unlike so many anti-vaccination 'quacks', he seems to have a reputable background; however at least some of the statements he's made (such as no double-blind studies being done) are out-and-out wrong. It does make me question what exactly is standing is in the research community.

I'm not pretending to keep calm, I am calm and with good reason. Considering that there is now a shortage of vaccine be it temporary or not it is highly unlikely that everyone or even the majority of the population will be vaccinated before we're smack dab in the middle of the flu season.

You're right, there are shortages....

But Influenza season runs from November to April. Even if you're in the low priority group and don't get vaccinated until December, you will still have protection from that strain of flu for more than 2/3rds of the influenza season (plus any post-season outbreaks.) To me, being protected for 2/3rds of the season is better than being protected for 0/3rds of the season.

Medical experts have come out stating that the vaccination isn't even necessary,

I would question the ability of any 'medical expert', and try to find the reasoning why they think the vaccination "isn't necessary".

Many people label themselves as "experts", but they're primarily known as being medical frauds and quacks. Others may have respectible backgrounds, but their information or reasoning may be faulty.

[Wilber]

Like I said- the war on terror has lost it's charm. So now it seems that the plague will have to do to jerk the peoples mind with fear - some ass hole knows this and will take advantage of it - Just like the Bushites did - I can't stand ass holes that manipultate the masses and get a boner doing it... sure there is disease - but the disease of fear is worse than any black death - real or imagined.

Some things should be feared. I don't know if this is one of them but I am going to make use of the precautions that are available. It just seems like common sense to me. How many black death events have you experienced in your lifetime? While we are not invulnerable, we do make mistakes and we can't expect 100% success at everything, I would suggest the reason that the developed world has not experienced events that used to be a common occurrence is largely due to advances in medicine and hygiene.

During the nineteenth century there were 29 epidemics in North America, yellow fever, cholera, smallpox, typhus, influenza, measles and a few others. Since 1900 there have been nine including HIV/AIDS, a Dengue fever outbreak in Cuba and the present H1N1. Since 1900 there have been four in Europe. Most of us have never experienced one so we have a tendency to think they cannot happen. I would say that our greatest danger is complacency, not fear.

The single biggest killer epidemic in history was "just the flu".

Edited October 30, 2009 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

....Since 1900 there have been four in Europe. Most of us have never experienced one so we have a tendency to think they cannot happen. I would say that our greatest danger is complacency, not fear.

Does impetigo from city pools count? We had that in the 1960's. Perfectly natural event...just like this one. Setting the expectation of invulnerability was the first mistake. People die every day from a myriad of causes.

[Wilber]

Does impetigo from city pools count? We had that in the 1960's. Perfectly natural event...just like this one. Setting the expectation of invulnerability was the first mistake. People die every day from a myriad of causes.

Flu is a perfectly natural event and every once and a while one turns up that is particularly lethal. The 1918 bug was a strain of H1N1, it is not unreasonable to be concerned that the present strain could possibly morph into something similar if steps are not taken to control it. Maybe it is a waste of time and effort, but then again, maybe not.

[bush_cheney2004]

Flu is a perfectly natural event and every once and a while one turns up that is particularly lethal. The 1918 bug was a strain of H1N1, it is not unreasonable to be concerned that the present strain could possibly morph into something similar if steps are not taken to control it. Maybe it is a waste of time and effort, but then again, maybe not.

Well, don't get me wrong, take all the steps desired to continue the false sense of "safe".....I prefer to just keep score with probability and statistics. 'Course now, I am old and jaded, having survived scares from polio, diphtheria, whooping cough, swine flu #1, HIV/AIDS, ebola, Y2K, anthrax in the mail, e-coli in my Whopper, and the Loch Ness Monster.

[Wilber]

Well, don't get me wrong, take all the steps desired to continue the false sense of "safe".....I prefer to just keep score with probability and statistics. 'Course now, I am old and jaded, having survived scares from polio, diphtheria, whooping cough, swine flu #1, HIV/AIDS, ebola, Y2K, anthrax in the mail, e-coli in my Whopper, and the Loch Ness Monster.

Who says I expect to feel safe? I'm just taking the steps available to me in order to mitigate whatever risk there is. I'm not stupid enough to think I am safe, it is nothing more than risk management. There is a difference between keeping score and playing the game.

[bush_cheney2004]

Who says I expect to feel safe? I'm just taking the steps available to me in order to mitigate whatever risk there is. I'm not stupid enough to think I am safe, it is nothing more than risk management. There is a difference between keeping score and playing the game.

That makes sense to me.....never get caught up in the behavioral hype. There are better reasons to have lots of duct tape than a possible NBCR warfare atack. But if we are facing a 1918 redux, I have inflated my wheel barrow to help move the bodies to the curb for pickup.