Harper Neocons favour ideology instead of data

[Sir Bandelot]

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Pr...3147/story.html

The Harper government has ignored reams of research and conclusive evidence about prison policy in favour of slogans and pandering. They promise to get tough on crime. Problem is, crime rates have been dropping across Canada, so in order to win public support, the government has had to rely on emotion rather than facts. And the government is happy to admit it. Critics "try to pacify Canadians with statistics" Prime Minister Stephen Harper told an audience last year. "Your personal experiences and impressions are wrong, they say, crime is really not a problem."

Empirical evidence should matter to policy-makers. Crime rates are one piece of evidence about what is and what is not working in the corrections system. Ignoring research and statistics is a formula for producing bad policy.

Among the key recommendations the government has adopted is ending "statutory releases" after prisoners serve two-thirds of their sentences, in favour of earned parole that is tied to following a corrections plan.

Instead of being supervised in the community, prisoners would serve longer and then be dumped into communities with no conditions. Ending a program that might be perceived as offering early release to prisoners may be good optics, but is it good policy?

Releasing prisoners with no conditions and no support might actually make the public less safe than earlier release that comes with conditions and support.

The Harper government would move the country's correctional system closer to the U.S. model, which would see more prisoners incarcerated for longer periods, thanks to mandatory minimum sentences and the elimination of gradual release. The plan would see the construction of U.S.-style super prisons.

But is the U.S. really any safer as a result of its jam-packed prisons?

----------------------

It's become quite clear that Harper is a poster boy for the US based International Republican Institute. These are the people who, for whatever reason, have great disdain for scientific facts and research based evidence. They can't be reasoned with. They can only be replaced.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[blueblood]

It's become quite clear that Harper is a poster boy for the US based International Republican Institute. These are the people who, for whatever reason, have great disdain for scientific facts and research based evidence. They can't be reasoned with. They can only be replaced.

If our system of revolving door justice is perfect, may I suggest moving to a neighbourhood where there are ex cons out of jail and where crime is rampant.

If its for private prisons with prison labour contracted out to various companies I'm all for it.

Edited October 15, 2009 by blueblood

[Sir Bandelot]

If our system of revolving door justice is perfect, may I suggest moving to a neighbourhood where there are ex cons out of jail and where crime is rampant.

No one in their right mind would want that, no matter what political leanings they have. So that kind of rebuttal is sheer nonsense, a waste of space. Why even bother posting such silly propositions.

Besides, even in a perfect Neocon world the prisoners WILL be released eventually. Think about how they should be released, when, and what happens to them once they're out.

Thats right... exercise that mental muscle a little more... it only hurts for a while. You will eventually get used to THINKNG.

->If its for private prisons with prison labour contracted out to various companies I'm all for it.

Well then, maybe you should move to the US...

Edited October 15, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[Michael Hardner]

If our system of revolving door justice is perfect, may I suggest moving to a neighbourhood where there are ex cons out of jail and where crime is rampant.

If its for private prisons with prison labour contracted out to various companies I'm all for it.

Blueblood's post, vis-a-vis the subject line, is an example of the oversupply of irony around here.

[ToadBrother]

If our system of revolving door justice is perfect, may I suggest moving to a neighbourhood where there are ex cons out of jail and where crime is rampant.

If its for private prisons with prison labour contracted out to various companies I'm all for it.

Because it's worked so well in the States:

http://www.crin.org/violence/search/closeup.asp?infoID=19646

[myata]

Harper's bringing this agenda to fun out fear and given reason to exist to his idelogical, neo concervative policies. It's just too bad that nobody's there, at all (flip-flop Iggy? cooperative Jack? anybody?) to expose it as such.

[Pliny]

Canadians have voiced their opinion that we need to get tougher on crime and criminals. I think the Conservative party is responding to this outcry in a manner that obviously doesn't meet everyone's approval.

Do you have a better solution to appeasing the public's demands?

Statistics do not make good arguments unless someone knows nothing about statistics, especially when a reporter interprets them or just accepts them without any critical analysis. A cue needs to be taken from Mark Twain regarding statistics. Research scientists have their political preferences too. They know where their bread is buttered.

[fellowtraveller]

Paul Bernardo has paid his debt to society.

[Pliny]

Harper's bringing this agenda to fun out fear and given reason to exist to his idelogical, neo concervative policies. It's just too bad that nobody's there, at all (flip-flop Iggy? cooperative Jack? anybody?) to expose it as such.

What's "fun out fear"?

What's a "neo concervative"?

Sorry, can't figure out what you are talking about here. But I guess it doesn't matter since words and definitions aren't important. Are they?

[Pliny]

Paul Bernardo has paid his debt to society.

Debt to society? Ibelieve I am a member of society and I don't remember getting my share?

Edited October 15, 2009 by Pliny

[M.Dancer]

Paul Bernardo has paid his debt to society.

Did he die?

[myata]

What's "fun out fear"?

What's a "neo concervative"?

Sorry, can't figure out what you are talking about here. But I guess it doesn't matter since words and definitions aren't important. Are they?

I'm starting to feel mild levels of annoyance with these unasked for, but certainly highly thoughtful comments - they happen to obstruct my view of the thread, and the next time I see them, I'll have to let the mod to weigh in on the reason they had to be here.

[Michael Hardner]

Pliny

Canadians have voiced their opinion that we need to get tougher on crime and criminals. I think the Conservative party is responding to this outcry in a manner that obviously doesn't meet everyone's approval.

Do you have a better solution to appeasing the public's demands?

I don't think "appease" is the right word. I do think that the public needs to be continually told that crime is on the decrease. Fear mongering by politicians is too attractive an option to getting cheap votes, and we need to be wary of taking the low road like that.

Statistics do not make good arguments unless someone knows nothing about statistics, especially when a reporter interprets them or just accepts them without any critical analysis. A cue needs to be taken from Mark Twain regarding statistics. Research scientists have their political preferences too. They know where their bread is buttered.

People need to understand statistics better - that would both prevent their misuse, and also would allow us to use them properly.

EVERY time somebody brings up statistics, there should be questions about the methodology, who backed it, and what was concluded - especially if a faulty cause-effect relationship is implied.

That being said, there's no reason that the public should accept any violence in society at all and they absolutely have the right to expect punishment for violent offenses.

[Argus]

The Harper government has ignored reams of research and conclusive evidence about prison policy in favour of slogans and pandering

Most of this "research" was done by people who have an ideological belief that criminals are merely the victims of society, not really responsible for their own actions due to undue influences in their early childhood or adolescence. Have you ever been to a sociology department at a university? These are not people you should be trusting to give you information on which you would ever base public policy. Most of them are people who didn't know what to do in life, had no real ambition, and so gravitated towards subjects like Sociology because they were easy. Now they tend to infest Human Resources departments in various levels of government.

They promise to get tough on crime. Problem is, crime rates have been dropping across Canada,

I've never understood this kind of argument. Crime rates rose precipitously for decades, peaking in the mid nineties, then began to ease. Why? Well, because the number of young men in the general population also went down. So does this mean we should no longer care about injustice? Does it mean that upon hearing that a man who brutally murdered another was out of jail a year later we should shrug and say "Well, crime rates are dropping, so no big deal"?

Among the key recommendations the government has adopted is ending "statutory releases" after prisoners serve two-thirds of their sentences, in favour of earned parole that is tied to following a corrections plan.

Instead of being supervised in the community, prisoners would serve longer and then be dumped into communities with no conditions. Ending a program that might be perceived as offering early release to prisoners may be good optics, but is it good policy?

No. The idea was brainless in the first place. There's no evidence it ever did a single thing to ease recividism rates. Instead it tended to throw the entire system of criminal justice into disrepute (though many other factors aided in that). If someone gets ten years they should not guaranteed to be on the street six and a half years later.

Releasing prisoners with no conditions and no support might actually make the public less safe than earlier release that comes with conditions and support.

Because parole offers up such stringent oversight that we know when ex-cons are going bad, right? The fact is that parole supervision has always been a pretty poorly operated program.

The Harper government would move the country's correctional system closer to the U.S. model

Whenever the extreme left want to damn something they always throw up the US. "It's like the evil Americans!" they cry shrilly, eyes wide with horror.

But is the U.S. really any safer as a result of its jam-packed prisons?

The cause of the US crime rates are its inner city slums filled with an underclass of people who have never worked - not for generations - and have no anticipation of ever working. The same affect is not felt here.

[eyeball]

I don't think "appease" is the right word. I do think that the public needs to be continually told that crime is on the decrease. Fear mongering by politicians is too attractive an option to getting cheap votes, and we need to be wary of taking the low road like that.

I'd rather the public be continually told just how often and why so many politicians use completely unfounded fear to get elected. Perhaps we need some sort of independant Liar's Commission that calls bullshit whenever the public is being hosed down with it.

[ToadBrother]

I'd rather the public be continually told just how often and why so many politicians use completely unfounded fear to get elected. Perhaps we need some sort of independant Liar's Commission that calls bullshit whenever the public is being hosed down with it.

What we need is an educated populace that can recognize hype, spin and B.S. If politicians were punished for this behavior, rather than being rewarded, things might change, but psychology is against honesty. People are easily manipulated by fear.

[Michael Hardner]

eyeball,

I'd rather the public be continually told just how often and why so many politicians use completely unfounded fear to get elected. Perhaps we need some sort of independant Liar's Commission that calls bullshit whenever the public is being hosed down with it.

How often ? Often. Why ? Because it works.

Setting up central committees to tell us the truth doesn't work as well as informing ourselves of what it is. This is a do-ocracy, i.e. yo u have to do it yourself. Learn what bad statistics are and point them out, soon others will do the sam.

[Michael Hardner]

Toadbrother beat me to it.

I'm sure they used to blame things on eclipses before we smartened up.

[bush_cheney2004]

Because it's worked so well in the States:

Krikey...that sure didn't take long. But then again, they use toilet paper in the "States" too !

[Moonbox]

What we need is an educated populace that can recognize hype, spin and B.S. If politicians were punished for this behavior, rather than being rewarded, things might change, but psychology is against honesty. People are easily manipulated by fear.

Thank you. I've been saying this on this forum for over a year now. If people were smarter and cared more, good things can be done. Sadly they're largely stupid, uneducated and apathetic, and thus we are where we are now.

I don't agree with a ton of things you and other people say here on this forum, but at least I really respect that you're interested in your own fate and the fate of Canada in general.

Edited October 15, 2009 by Moonbox

[noahbody]

Problem is, crime rates have been dropping across Canada,

That's a misnomer. Crime rates have dropped because the aging of our population. Is crime going away? No. In fact, violent youth crime is on the rise.

Critics "try to pacify Canadians with statistics" Prime Minister Stephen Harper told an audience last year.

He was right.

Among the key recommendations the government has adopted is ending "statutory releases" after prisoners serve two-thirds of their sentences, in favour of earned parole that is tied to following a corrections plan.

I'm amazed people who believe in rehabilitation are complaining about this. Isn't rehabilitation about learning? Should our schools get rid of tests and graduate everyone after 12 years, not caring if they can read or write?

The Harper government would move the country's correctional system closer to the U.S. model

Before we started discounting sentences was our correctional system not Canadian? Put the American boogie man away. What do you think of the strict gun laws of New York state? Any opinion?

[jdobbin]

That's a misnomer. Crime rates have dropped because the aging of our population.

And abortion if you believe in Freakanomics.

Is crime going away? No. In fact, violent youth crime is on the rise.

So the Tories will support increased abortion?

[eyeball]

eyeball,

How often ? Often. Why ? Because it works.

Setting up central committees to tell us the truth doesn't work as well as informing ourselves of what it is. This is a do-ocracy, i.e. yo u have to do it yourself. Learn what bad statistics are and point them out, soon others will do the sam.

I simply meant we need something to provide a better reality check. I suppose that's the Fourth Estate's role but it seems more interested in what sells than what's real.

I agree that an educated informed populace is or was our only hope. That said how do we prod the poplulace to become that? We could make voters take issues comprehension tests and if people fail perhaps they'd be encouraged to smarten themselves up.

In any case I think its too late myself. There are just too many intractable problems piling up too fast for anyone to react appropriately i.e. intelligently.

[Moonbox]

And abortion if you believe in Freakanomics.

So the Tories will support increased abortion?

What does this have to do with anything Jdobbin? Are you trying to participate in the discussion or are you just plugging the Liberal slogan of the day? Thanks for stopping by.

[blueblood]

No one in their right mind would want that, no matter what political leanings they have. So that kind of rebuttal is sheer nonsense, a waste of space. Why even bother posting such silly propositions.

Besides, even in a perfect Neocon world the prisoners WILL be released eventually. Think about how they should be released, when, and what happens to them once they're out.

Thats right... exercise that mental muscle a little more... it only hurts for a while. You will eventually get used to THINKNG.

->If its for private prisons with prison labour contracted out to various companies I'm all for it.

Well then, maybe you should move to the US...

Why because the evil Americans did it, it's always wrong?

I don't get why private options are so toxic? Canadian food is privately processed and goes through rigorous CFIA inspection standards. Why not have private prisons that generate revenue, are federally inspected so no abuses go on there, and save the public tax dollars?

What the hug a thugs think is that the canadian jail system will automatically rehabilitate inmates automatically. To be rehabilitated, one has to want to be rehabilitated, i.e. you can't force someone to go into drug rehab and expect them to be fixed a month later if they don't believe they have a problem and want to get it taken care of. Back to my point, what about those prisoners who don't believe they have a problem, and after their sentance get out commit a crime and back in they go. At least with the private prison option, there would be funding to able to house inmates for longer, give the rehabilitation programs for those who it will work on the proper funding, and more funding to adequately house inmates.

With violent youth crime on the rise as was pointed out earlier, its far to big of a gamble throwing them in for a year, and hoping they are magically cured.