Harper Neocons favour ideology instead of data

[Remiel]

Day may be a little differenrt at times ,but he is the most honest hardworking politicion we have.

Actually, that designation supposedly goes to Ted Menzies this year. Not Day.

[Jack Weber]

Harper Conservatives... now they're getting tough on imaginary crime! Given the crime rate is at a 30-year low... that violent crime is in steady decline, (with exceptions being a rise in drug offences and impaired driving attributed to improved police enforcement), the Harper Conservatives see a need to spend $9 billion on new prisons without being able to provide any substantiation - other than "unreported crimes"! Oh my...

just listen to Stockwell Day in the media scrum... stunningly stoopid!

Ya'know....

If we put our official Tin Foil Hat Society head gear on....

(adjusting hat for comfort...Ah....That's better...)

Maybe this census stuff was a smoke screen to take us off the trail of what they Con's really want to do in the future...

Imprison anyone who does'nt agree with them!!!!

Clearly,there really is'nt a need for the cell space,at least on the scale they're talking about....So why the necessity for more prisons????

Perhaps Mr.Falange is correct and we are headed for a Fascist dictatorship in our midst and we cannot see the conspiracy!!!!!

(removing hat)

That's just crazy talk...

Edited August 4, 2010 by Jack Weber

[Sir Bandelot]

Clearly,there really is'nt a need for the cell space,at least on the scale they're talking about....So why the necessity form prisons????

It's not a dumb question. To paraphrase my favorite a-hole manager- (clears throat) "In this time of fiscal restraint..."

Why spend money to build prisons, who are we building them for, when there are other priorities that need the cash, that would arguably serve the public far better. We would like an intelligent answer, Mr. Minister. Oops, sorry no point in asking you.

Hey maybe they are doing it to boost the Canadian economy. Part of a grand scheme to invigorate it by creating a whole new industry, American style Prison-Pharmaco-Military-Industrial complex. Shut up and take your pills, or go to jail. It's all for our betterment, really!

[Bonam]

Hey maybe they are doing it to boost the Canadian economy. Part of a grand scheme to invigorate it by creating a whole new industry, American style Prison-Pharmaco-Military-Industrial complex. Shut up and take your pills, or go to jail. It's all for our betterment, really!

What are you talking about? Take pills or go to jail? Are you talking about mentally ill patients who have the taking of certain therapeutic drugs as a condition of their release from a mental institution? Or are you just being ridiculous like in the mosque thread?

[Wild Bill]

The really weird part is that Day does not seem to get that you cannot lock up people that are not reported. You build prisons for the prisoners you have, not for the ones you think there ought to be.

If we stop shaving up to 2/3 off every sentence, would that not mean we would need more cells because more prisoners are staying the full term?

[Molly]

If we stop shaving up to 2/3 off every sentence, would that not mean we would need more cells because more prisoners are staying the full term?

Yes it would. If we apply mandatory minimums, to force longer sentences than any sensible judge would levy, that, too, will result in a need for more prisons and prison space.

However, Mr. Day chose to cite unreported crimes instead, and when folks pointed out that it made no sense at all, by golly, he stuck to his guns.

[waldo]

If we stop shaving up to 2/3 off every sentence, would that not mean we would need more cells because more prisoners are staying the full term?

why... yes, it would - of course, it also does nothing to address one of the real issues behind pre-trial reduction, like, uhhh... a justice system that deems it 'acceptable' to imprison individuals for inordinate periods of time without trial or follow-up sentencing.

as for related costs, well... that's certainly another thing... another thing the Harper Conservatives are less than transparent on - ya think?

Truth in Sentencing Act to cost billions

New legislation limiting the credit given to prisoners for time served in custody before and during their trials will cost taxpayers $1 billion to implement and billions more to maintain, the parliamentary budget officer said Tuesday.

The construction of new correctional facilities alone will cost about $1.8 billion over five years, parliamentary budget officer Kevin Page said in a report quantifying the implications of the Truth in Sentencing Act.

A further $618 million will be needed annually for capital appropriations and operations and maintenance costs.

"I knew incarceration was expensive," Page told reporters Tuesday morning. "When we do the simple math in terms of longer stays, which means higher head counts and we know how expensive … incarceration is, you get to big numbers in a hurry."

Page and his team used figures from 2007-2008 to derive their rough estimates because the federal government was unwilling to provide specific data, the report said.

Public Safety Minister Vic Toews quickly dismissed Page's report, saying he didn't "know where

[Page] is getting his information from."

"If you indicate that he wasn't getting any information from Correctional Service Canada, he must be making this up," Toews said.

The act, which went into effect on Feb. 23, limits the credit judges can give prisoners for time served before sentencing.

Such limits have three major consequences, Page's report concluded:

* Inmates will spend more time in custody.

* Convicts whose credit might have kept them in provincial facilities will have to be transferred to federal prisons.

* Those convicted of lighter sentences who might have been directly released into community supervision will instead be sent to correctional facilities.

The act is expected to increase the number of inmates from 8,618 in fiscal year 2007-08 to 17,058, including 9,021 in community supervision, the report said.

But Canada lacks sufficient space for so many inmates, requiring construction of 13 new federal and provincial facilities at a cost of $1.8 billion, or $363 million per year for five years, the report said.

The additional facilities would include:

* Two low-security facilities with 250 cells each.

* Six medium-security facilities with 600 cells each.

* Four high-security facilities with 400 cells each.

* One multi-level security facility with 400 cells.

The new facilities would increase the annual cost of caring for inmates — including operation and maintenance expenses as well as capital appropriations — by about $618 million a year, from the current $2.2 billion to roughly $2.8 billion, the report said.

The report was unable to project the financial impacts of the Truth in Sentencing Act for the provinces and territories because of a lack of current data.

However, using a simulation, it projected that annual costs of correctional services would more than double by 2015-16, from $4.4 billion to $9.5 billion, and responsibility for funding the majority of this would shift from the federal government to the provinces and territories.

so... I guess this is how we arrive at the $9 billion figure being bandied about... the PBO being forced to rely on "historical trends, intuition, probability... and simulation", in order to estimate related costs. One wonders what an actual Harper Conservative government estimate might be - if only they were cooperative in that regard - hey?

Mark Holland criticized the Conservatives for "a lack of co-operation and disclosure."

"The costs cannot be dumped on taxpayers and the provinces," Holland said. "The Conservatives must sit down with the provinces and territories to address their very legitimate concerns about how these initiatives are going to be funded."

on edit caveat! oh ya... these costs reflect upon existing policy and associated prisoner levels... they have no association to the Harper Conservatives plan to get tough on imaginary crime!

Edited August 5, 2010 by waldo

[Pliny]

I think they are acting on the supposition that every Canadian would like to have more than three marijuana plants.

[Wild Bill]

Yes it would. If we apply mandatory minimums, to force longer sentences than any sensible judge would levy, that, too, will result in a need for more prisons and prison space.

However, Mr. Day chose to cite unreported crimes instead, and when folks pointed out that it made no sense at all, by golly, he stuck to his guns.

Well, we've all seen a number of times before that Day is a man of faith more than of reason. He also doesn't seem to be that quick a thinker. I'm not saying he's dumb, just that he's not good at thinking fast.

Was it Butterbur the innkeep in the Lord of the Rings who was described as not a fast thinker but "he could see through a brick wall, given time."?

He seems to have done a reasonable job since he gave up the idea of being the leader in favour of being a "second lieutenant". Not amazing, but reasonable. It's hard to tell if ANY of Harper's crew are quick witted, given how he makes them all hide their talents under bushels.

Still just the best of some bad choices, Molly. The Liberals showed themselves to be all TOO quickwitted, given their scandals.

As for the NDP, they remind me of a hippy we all knew when I was growing up, who was convinced that if we just let him on stage with his bag of granola the positive vibes from the bag would radiate out and change the world!

Edited August 5, 2010 by Wild Bill

[Topaz]

The Tories want to spend just as much for these prisons as they do for the fighter planes! Then there's the cost for the upkeep for these prisons and to house one prisoner its up to thousands of $$. Why not spend more money on social programs to help say kids from 10 years up to PREVENT them from going to prison! As one DR. says in the senator meetings, most of the drug crimes are health issues and not criminal. Perhaps it time to bring the death penalty for murder and maybe that will stop some people from doing it. I also think they should made it a law, if you break the law, you have to serve 5 years in the military, I would think crime would disappear! I'm talking about break and enter etc.

[Bonam]

I also think they should made it a law, if you break the law, you have to serve 5 years in the military, I would think crime would disappear! I'm talking about break and enter etc.

Yeah because replacing our military of motivated volunteers with a military of indentured criminals wouldn't affect it's quality at all...

[eyeball]

Conservatives are sick twisted perverts...I mean, here's a party that pretends to really care about drug use and crime while also claiming to champion the cause of protecting unborn fetuses.

By some estimates one in four prisoners in Canadian jails were born with FAS. Here is a drug that physically leads to people becoming criminals before they even emerge from the womb by poisoning their brains and Conservatives think the same governments that sells the shit that poisons these fetuses should now lock them up for even longer once they're born and grown up.

They're disgusting, perverted and despicable. Conservative moral engineering makes the left's social engineering look positively benign in comparison.

[jdi]

Today on www.themarknews.com, The Mark is hosting liberal leader Michael Ignatieff in a live chat at 4:30pm EST. You can submit questions to the opposition leader as he travels cross Canada via The Mark's Facebook page, The Mark's website, or Twitter @themarknews. Submit your questions and comments ASAP!

[Alta4ever]

Today on www.themarknews.com, The Mark is hosting liberal leader Michael Ignatieff in a live chat at 4:30pm EST. You can submit questions to the opposition leader as he travels cross Canada via The Mark's Facebook page, The Mark's website, or Twitter @themarknews. Submit your questions and comments ASAP!

Get a life! We've got more important things to talk about then the failed political career of the convenient Canadian.

Edited August 9, 2010 by Alta4ever

[waldo]

Today on www.themarknews.com, The Mark is hosting liberal leader Michael Ignatieff in a live chat at 4:30pm EST. You can submit questions to the opposition leader as he travels cross Canada via The Mark's Facebook page, The Mark's website, or Twitter @themarknews. Submit your questions and comments ASAP!

hey now! Thanks for the heads-up... all this repeated MLW talk about the failings of Fearless Leader Harper have become, at times, too redundant.

[nicky10013]

Get a life! We've got more important things to talk about then the failed political career of the convenient Canadian.

Convenient Canadian? I guess that's the jealousy talking; that he's far more accomplished and easily far more respected than you'll ever be.

[PIK]

This is liberal justice ,where under harper plan this man would still be in jail where he belongs.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/time+killer+parole+goes+missing/3375436/story.html

[nicky10013]

This is liberal justice ,where under harper plan this man would still be in jail where he belongs.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/time+killer+parole+goes+missing/3375436/story.html

Doubt it.