The Islamification Of Europe

[Oleg Bach]

Letting Muslims internally displace the population of Europe is like being a kind host and having a crack head move into your house - It might be the right thing to do as far as compassion - but you lose your security and home in the process. What is worse is that Muslim males know how to breed - and European males are getting to the poing where they don't know if they are male or female. Just listen to some EU media - all the men sound like passive little hetro-phags..Europe as we once knew it is doomed.

[DogOnPorch]

The reason Western women aren't having 12 babies each is that they have equal rights and easy access to birth control. They generally don't want to be baby-making slaves to severe bearded men...so sexy.

[Oleg Bach]

The reason Western women aren't having 12 babies each is that they have equal rights and easy access to birth control. They generally don't want to be baby-making slaves to severe bearded men...so sexy.

Severe bearded men? _ that's why I keep mine nicely trimmed...I don't want to be mistaken for a severe type or worse a homeless unwashed jerk.. Most of our partying young look at the idea of having a child as very similar to catching aids... My mother had five children and probably a dozen abortions..my sister had so many abortions that she was rendered incapable of conception due to scaring....There are woman who have ten children who are perfectly healthy and in one piece after all is said and done. Western woman should have 4 children....one girly boy per family will not serve us well. But of course the child will be conditioned into looking at breeding as a disease - we have socially evolved ourselves into a position of potential extinction - and the Muslims know it...

[DogOnPorch]

Severe bearded men? _ that's why I keep mine nicely trimmed...I don't want to be mistaken for a severe type or worse a homeless unwashed jerk.. Most of our partying young look at the idea of having a child as very similar to catching aids... My mother had five children and probably a dozen abortions..my sister had so many abortions that she was rendered incapable of conception due to scaring....There are woman who have ten children who are perfectly healthy and in one piece after all is said and done. Western woman should have 4 children....one girly boy per family will not serve us well. But of course the child will be conditioned into looking at breeding as a disease - we have socially evolved ourselves into a position of potential extinction - and the Muslims know it...

I'm sure your slave will be keen to squeeze out four more in your honour.

[Oleg Bach]

I'm sure your slave will be keen to squeeze out four more in your honour.

No her tenure as supplier of prodical sons and daughters is over...the "slave" is out to pasture as we speak. There may be some other sucker out their with a fresh uterus who wants offspring with certain qualities - some woman are very smart in those regards..my former loved music - so she made sure she got some from me---now she has adult children that provide live music after a family dinner - she's happy with that and sings along ....The "slave" got exactly what she wanted....some woman know what they want - others do not... It had nothing do do with paying tribute to me or my "honour" - I carry the genetics from a long line of creative people - perhaps the next woman wants a daughter who will delight her with great piano in the morning _ I am more than willing to keep supplying product to the "slaves"..

[jbg]

I totally agree with your comments. Every word. However there are some on this forum who do engage in sweeping negative generalizations about an entire people-that I challenge.

I'm one of those who you have alleged "engage in sweeping negative generalizations about an entire people". The facts are the facts.

Jews are more likely than Muslims to be engaged in serious financial frauds. Bernie Madoff is not Muslim and he ruined many people's lives. I do not say that all Jews or even most Jews are virtuous.

What I do say is that the pathology that infects Islam the most is violence. Obviously, probably 98% or more Muslims are personally quite peaceful. It's the lack of group condemnation and marginalization of the carnage and those responsible for it that are the problems.

I also challenge anyone of any religion or culture for the exact same reasons-and that is if they try use their religion or culture to promote intolerance and hatred.

I really don't think anyone here is trying to do that.

[Michael Hardner]

jbg,

Jews are more likely than Muslims to be engaged in serious financial frauds. Bernie Madoff is not Muslim and he ruined many people's lives. I do not say that all Jews or even most Jews are virtuous.

What I do say is that the pathology that infects Islam the most is violence. Obviously, probably 98% or more Muslims are personally quite peaceful. It's the lack of group condemnation and marginalization of the carnage and those responsible for it that are the problems.

If you were performing such 'ethnic analysis' objectively, as if it were some kind of science then there may be a point to it. Unfortunately, it's just not possible to do so.

When you say "Jews" you likely mean Jews of a certain background, likely American. Why are you not talking about the pathology of "Americans" ? Why are you not talking about the fact that so many crooked billionaires came from Wall Street ? The first step in this investigation, such as it is, was likely the identification of someone's religion from a newspaper article over any other factors. But that's not an objective selection process, or a scientific way to narrow down root causes.

I'm not trying to paint you as prejudiced here, but rather I'm showing how anyone brings their natural bias to such a conversation.

Sometimes when we look at issues of culture it appears as if we're being objective, but it's nearly impossible to be objective in those situations because all of us come from a culture of our own. Even if you could discount that, then you could never separate the effects (in the group you're examining) of their culture from other environmental factors. I have argued here many times that it's ridiculous to lump Canadian-born Muslims with those who come from another culture, especially when it's not done with other religions.

Of course we know that groups behave differently overall, and that certain groups are more likely to engage in certain behaviors than others. It may not be PC to say that, but it's reality. But the question is, what are you going to do at the end of your process, after you identify (and I would say vilify) a group of such people whose behavior you want to change ? Are you going to punish the group as a whole or are you going to apply resources to the problem ?

[Shady]

In the meantime, who do so many idiots still buy into this silly notion that Islamic terrorists hate our freedom?

Because some of them do. Except, when you read some of the radical Islamic websites, they spell it freedumb. It's quite disturbing.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Shady

[ToadBrother]

Because some of them do. Except, when you read some of the radical Islamic websites, they spell it freedumb. It's quite disturbing.

Read any kind of radical site and you'll see disturbing stuff. Look at some of the Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists down in the States, and you'll see guys with some downright scary beliefs. And not all of those guys are nuts living in stockades, either. Howard Ahmanson Jr. is an extremely wealthy guy who funds all sorts of Christian Fundamentalist-oriented groups. He was a good buddy of a real nutjob, R. J. Rushdoony, and while he has somewhat distanced himself from that lunatics views, Ahmanson and your average Muslim Fundamentalist would find a lot to agree on.

If you judge any kind of movement, religious or otherwise, by the fringes, then I can't think of any movement that would pass muster. There's no doubt that there has been some radicalization of Muslims, particularly younger Muslims, over the last decade or two, both in Muslim countries and in Western countries where many have immigrated to. There are problems to be overcome, but to assume that every Muslim advocates we all live under Shariah Law, or has nail bombs strapped to their chests is prejudicial and can only increase the radicalization.

[Shady]

Read any kind of radical site and you'll see disturbing stuff. Look at some of the Christian Reconstructionists and Dominionists down in the States, and you'll see guys with some downright scary beliefs. And not all of those guys are nuts living in stockades, either. Howard Ahmanson Jr. is an extremely wealthy guy who funds all sorts of Christian Fundamentalist-oriented groups. He was a good buddy of a real nutjob, R. J. Rushdoony, and while he has somewhat distanced himself from that lunatics views, Ahmanson and your average Muslim Fundamentalist would find a lot to agree on.

If you judge any kind of movement, religious or otherwise, by the fringes, then I can't think of any movement that would pass muster. There's no doubt that there has been some radicalization of Muslims, particularly younger Muslims, over the last decade or two, both in Muslim countries and in Western countries where many have immigrated to. There are problems to be overcome, but to assume that every Muslim advocates we all live under Shariah Law, or has nail bombs strapped to their chests is prejudicial and can only increase the radicalization.

I was referring to Islamic Terrorists specifically.

[Argus]

I think your're playing "Engrish hard too me"

I guess when you have no logical or coherent answer then sticking your tongue out serves as your rebuttal. Hey, it worked in junior kindergarten, and it's not like your mind seems to have progressed much since then.

[M.Dancer]

I guess when you have no logical or coherent answer then sticking your tongue out serves as your rebuttal. Hey, it worked in junior kindergarten, and it's not like your mind seems to have progressed much since then.

To offer a logical answer, a logical question premise helps. You misread what I wrote, you misread a lot of posts. I'm sure there's a good reason why you misconstrue simple english so often, I just don't really care what it is until you make an effort to correct that.

If you have difficulty with the above, please don't hesitate to ask for clarification

[bush_cheney2004]

I suspect more people are killed every year by weapons exported by countries like Germany, France and the US than are killed in terrorists attacks.....

More people die in traffic accidents and natural disasters too....so what?

[jbg]

Of course we know that groups behave differently overall, and that certain groups are more likely to engage in certain behaviors than others. It may not be PC to say that, but it's reality. But the question is, what are you going to do at the end of your process, after you identify (and I would say vilify) a group of such people whose behavior you want to change ? Are you going to punish the group as a whole or are you going to apply resources to the problem ?

Answer:

Use the information to profile effectively. I believe it is futile and wasteful to force grandmothers from Queens to take off their shoes and belts at airports, and force everyone to snake through long lines. Search the people that obviously need searching.

And as for financial frauds, do infiltrate and investigate Jewish charities. If this had been done Madoff's predations would have ended far earlier with far lower losses.

[kimmy]

Severe bearded men? _ that's why I keep mine nicely trimmed...I don't want to be mistaken for a severe type or worse a homeless unwashed jerk..

If it's any consolation, Oleg, I bet you probably bathe almost every month.

-k

[Michael Hardner]

jbg,

Answer:

Use the information to profile effectively. I believe it is futile and wasteful to force grandmothers from Queens to take off their shoes and belts at airports, and force everyone to snake through long lines. Search the people that obviously need searching.

And as for financial frauds, do infiltrate and investigate Jewish charities. If this had been done Madoff's predations would have ended far earlier with far lower losses.

Is that what it's about ? Saving me 15 minutes at the airport ? I'd rather force everyone to do it so nothing gets missed.

Investigating charities ? I don't understand... do you mean planting spies in social groups so that they can rat on citizens ? What specifically are you proposing ?

[JB Globe]

Your parallels...aren't! First off, previous immigration involved religious groups that for the most part already embraced the principle of separation of church and state.

Not really - in the early 18th century the Irish immigrants who came to the US saw their faith as one of the defining aspects of their identity, and thus valued it above state allegiance. This is a result of the British dominance of Ireland, which was seen as a Protestant Imperialist venture by the Catholics.

Combine that with an American xenophobia towards Catholics and the discriminatory policies that ensued and the result is a lot of early Irish immigrants to America put more stock in their faith than their state, because their state wasn't exactly allowing them to contribute and become a full member of society. That's why if you read historical accounts written by Americans about the Irish at the time they keep making comments like: "The Irish will ultimately only obey their king in Rome"

This changed over time as the community settled down in the US, and the xenophobia relaxed (or rather, started to focus on more-foreign seeming or different groups) and the US didn't fall apart as many of its xenophobes had predicted.

I would agree that perhaps the majority of Muslims are no threat to changing our culture, particularly politically. However, those aren't the folks we need to worry about! One fundamentalist with a bomb is more dangerous than thousands of those who, for lack of a better word, are civilized!

Frankly I believe this threat is overblown. I am far more scared of driving on the 401 than I am of dying in a terrorist attack. I'm happy to let CSIS & the RCMP do their job and not worry much about it. Especially after reading the case against the Toronto 18 - what a bunch of amateurs. Most of them were kids and their plans read like a 14-year-old's adolescent fantasy.

For some perspective, zero people in Canada have been killed by terrorist attacks from Islamic extremists. How many have been killed from the acts of radical Quebec separatists? And what did we do to deal with that problem? We worked WITH the folks in Quebec to root out the radicals in their midst because we convinced them it was not in either of our interests to have them running around.

Bringing the hammer down on a marginalized community doesn't actually work as you know, and I defy anyone to cite me an example where it did.

For it is not the religion of Islam that we should fear. It is really the culture of SOME primitive, fundamentalist Islamic countries!

True, I've always said that the best counter to Islamists is Islamic Scholarship - the vast majority of scholars are unified in condemning terrorism (See: the Amman Message)

Still, it is not "Islamophobia" (I really hate that term! As much as 'homophobia'. It is very poor English with a meaning totally different from the word 'phobia' itself. Both terms grate on me like the word 'irregardless'!) to fear and to take steps to protect ourselves from MILITANT, fundamentalist Islamists! It is just simple prudence!

Sure, but what steps are we talking about here?

When it comes to immigration it is a very naive notion to think that we have a duty to be fair to everyone of every culture, even if it means erring on the side of allowing some folks into the country that may be a risk.

Sure, but if we were going to make changes to the immigration system, it should have to go through Parliament, and it would have to be country-specific - after all, it wouldn't be fair or make sense to apply these laws to all Muslims: it's not as if Senegal or Guyana are terrorist hot-spots.

[JB Globe]

Islamic Terrorism attacks US on US soil, twice. Both times on the World Trade Centre. 1993, 2001.

Islamic Terrorism murders and kill a Dutch journalist in NDL, this was an Islamic Ritual Murder. 2 November 2004.

Islamic Terrorism bombs the train system in Madrid where 191 people were killed and 2,050 wounded, March 11, 2004.

Islamic Terrorism bombs the London train system where 53 are killed by four suicide bombers. Nearly 700 injured. July 7, 2005.

Islamic Terrorism is responsible for the plot to assassinate our PM, dubbed the "Toronto 18".

Islamic terrorism is behind a suitcase bomb plot that was thwarted by German police, luckily no one was killed.

I could cite many many more.

Terrorism is here, whether or not people choose to believe it or bury their heads in the sand in peoples free choice. Make no mistake, we are under attack.

How many Canadians die per year from Islamic terrorism?

How many Canadians die per year at the hands of a person who is mentally unbalanced and not receiving treatment?

How many Canadians die per year from traffic accidents?

If you're scared about terrorism, you should be petrified of driving.

Why are you pissing your pants about one and not the other?

[Argus]

To offer a logical answer, a logical question premise helps. You misread what I wrote, you misread a lot of posts. I'm sure there's a good reason why you misconstrue simple english so often, I just don't really care what it is until you make an effort to correct that.

If you have difficulty with the above, please don't hesitate to ask for clarification

I'm confident in my ability to understand the message as presented. If my understanding is not what you intended to convey I suggest you improve your clumsy efforts at written communication.

[Sir Bandelot]

If it's any consolation, Oleg, I bet you probably bathe almost every month.

-k

Whether he need it or not

[Sir Bandelot]

And as for financial frauds, do infiltrate and investigate Jewish charities. If this had been done Madoff's predations would have ended far earlier with far lower losses.

They don't have to. They got the other non-jewish ones doing the same sort of thing. Why would they want to investigate themselves?

You think that the Jews are to blame for the financial situation, and you are a Jew. Thats kinda sad. Are you ashamed of your Jewish-ness?

There is a psychological profile for someone like you, called Woody Allen

Edited October 16, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[Black Dog]

How do you know it's inherently false? What evidence are you relying on? Are there any nations on the planet right now which have a minority Muslim population of say, over 20% where there is not religious violence, terrorism, and a move for Islamic law for the minority? Even with their comparatively much smaller Muslim minorities the French, British, and others in Europe have had growing problems with Muslims, evidenced by rioting, terrorism, and no-go areas for local police. If the rioting is as bad as it is in France with 10%. What are things going to be like when the Muslim minority reaches 30%?

I think the onus is on you and your ilk to show that the violence and rioting is due to Muslims being Muslims versus other factors. I mean, there's U.S. cities that have the same problems you cite: what's your explanation for that?

Really? Well here's the odd thing about that. Europe is largely socialist. Socialist governments throughout Europe have bent over backwards to accomodate newcoming immigrants, to respect their cultures, to downgrade the importance of their own historic symbols and customs in order to not offend the newcomers.

Like when France banned the Napoleonic hijab? Or in Germany where citizens of Turkish descent are still referred to as “guest workers?” European approach has been far more assimilationist than you allege.

Oh, and those hate crime laws you talk about? Might have a bit less to do with being nice to immigrants and a tad more to do with this.

In other words, the Left has been SOLELY in charge of everything over there with regard to immigrants the last thirty years. The result is that in every European country, Muslim immigrants feel like outsiders.

Care to explain how the former led to the latter? Even if we accept your premise that the last 30 years have been a time of bureaucratic immigrant-coddling, you completely ignore the broader culture forces in play. What’s 30 years when compared to centuries of cultural and ethnic homogeneity and xenophobic nationalism that have been so much a fabric of European society? Those are the forces that the average immigrant is going to contend with on a daily basis, not some high minded bureaucratic regulation.

They have not adapted to the local culture, but have lived in ghettos, clinging to their "native" culture.

I think the same line was used in connection with Europe’s Jews from about, oh, 1492.

In country after country polls suggest huge numbers of people of the Muslim religion, even those born there, don't feel any particular kinship with their countrymen, but instead feel kinship with fellow Muslims elsewhere in the world.

And that would have nothing to do with the barriers facing immigrants in these places where the entrenched cultures have been white and Christian?

In North America, where we have not been as accommodating towards immigrants because our governments are more centrish/centre right, and because of a general feeling they ought to try and adapt to us rather than the reverse, immigrants, including Muslims, tend to feel more kinship and more national pride than in Europe.

Or because we never experienced the sudden depopulation and subsequent mass immigration post war/postcolonial Europe did and thus didn’t have to deal with the same issues.

I’d like to go on, but I have to dash. Overall, you're peddling some pretty slapdash stuff here.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Black Dog

[Argus]

I think the onus is on you and your ilk to show that the violence and rioting is due to Muslims being Muslims versus other factors. I mean, there's U.S. cities that have the same problems you cite: what's your explanation for that?

Me and my ilk? I don't feel under any special onus to prove that their behaviour is not due to some other factor, and there are no U.S. cities that have the same problems, so I feel under no obligation to "explain" that either.

Like when France banned the Napoleonic hijab?

France has been experiencing a backlash the last couple of years in large measure due to the behaviour pattern of its immigrant Muslim population.

Oh, and those hate crime laws you talk about? Might have a bit less to do with being nice to immigrants and a tad more to do with this.

Yeah, but not likely, or they'd have come out in the fifties or sixties.

Care to explain how the former led to the latter? Even if we accept your premise that the last 30 years have been a time of bureaucratic immigrant-coddling, you completely ignore the broader culture forces in play. What’s 30 years when compared to centuries of cultural and ethnic homogeneity and xenophobic nationalism that have been so much a fabric of European society? Those are the forces that the average immigrant is going to contend with on a daily basis, not some high minded bureaucratic regulation.

Oh, so you're saying all those bureacratic regulations are pointless and ineffective? So you're against such things here, I take it?

I’d like to go on, but I have to dash

More importantly, if you "went on" you might have to address why 10% of Canadian Muslims felt terrorist acts against Canada were justified, or why half of them wanted Sharia law. Fortunately since you had to "dash" you could just erase that part and ignore it.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

Frankly I believe this threat is overblown. I am far more scared of driving on the 401 than I am of dying in a terrorist attack. I'm happy to let CSIS & the RCMP do their job and not worry much about it. Especially after reading the case against the Toronto 18 - what a bunch of amateurs. Most of them were kids and their plans read like a 14-year-old's adolescent fantasy.

Not really much different than the "kids" who murdered all those pepole in the London subway.

For some perspective, zero people in Canada have been killed by terrorist attacks from Islamic extremists. How many have been killed from the acts of radical Quebec separatists? And what did we do to deal with that problem? We worked WITH the folks in Quebec to root out the radicals in their midst because we convinced them it was not in either of our interests to have them running around.

Bringing the hammer down on a marginalized community doesn't actually work as you know, and I defy anyone to cite me an example where it did.

Why yes, as a matter of fact, that would be ahhhh, Quebec separatists. We "worked with" them by instituting martial law and arresting anyone who even smelled like they might be a sympathiser or supporter of the FLQ, and throwing them in prison without trial. You don't think that was a hammer? For a half dozen terrorists we had thousands of armed troops on the streets of Montreal, Quebec and Ottawa.

[jbg]

Investigating charities ? I don't understand... do you mean planting spies in social groups so that they can rat on citizens ? What specifically are you proposing ?

Bernie Madoff used his connections in Jewish social and charity groups to bilk people out of billions. Law abiding people should have no problem with having shysters like him smoked out.