Topaz Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Poll taken has more Canadians wanting out military to return to "peacekeeping" rather than enter into a "seek and kill" mode we have in Afghanistan. BTW, I just heard on the news, that a US General is saying that Afghanistan is looking more like a losing battle. The blame has to go to Bush and his gang for pulling out so early the first time and going into Iraq. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090920/...afghan_cda_poll Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 US foreign policy for the last 30 years might be blamed for the mess in Afghanistan, but it was a mess well before Bush sent the troops there and he really didn't make it any worse than it already was (i'm not defending Bush I just don't think you understand what it's like there) Culturally, Afghanistan is about 10,000 years behind the rest of the world. For longer than history has been written, it's been a stinkhole country full of warring tribles with a literacy rate lower than a Canadian kindergarten class'. The place is an absolute mess. It's been that way longer than anyone can remember. Nothing we've done lately has made it worse, it's just it might be well beyond saving. If Pakistan would clamp down on its militant north and police its own borders, things would be about 500x easier than it is now. Unfortunately, it doesn't. The international force there now is facing the same problems the Soviets did in the 80's. To pacify Afghanistan you'd have to move in to Northern Pakistan, and I don't think anyone's too excited about that prospect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Poll taken has more Canadians wanting out military to return to "peacekeeping" rather than enter into a "seek and kill" mode we have in Afghanistan. BTW, I just heard on the news, that a US General is saying that Afghanistan is looking more like a losing battle. The blame has to go to Bush and his gang for pulling out so early the first time and going into Iraq. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090920/...afghan_cda_poll A lot of Canadians are ignorant and stupid about anything to do with the military. They've been soaking in that gushy liberal propaganda about us as the noble peacekeepers for a generation, and a lot of the dumber ones actually believe it. Fact is that peacekeeping means being willing to kill people who don't keep the peace. The days of us being observers between states which have called in the UN to police a truce they've agreed upon are long gone. Now the UN tries to keep failed states from completely disintegrating along the Somalia model, and there is no one there who cares if you wear a blue beret and have noble intentions. That's why Canadian "peacekeepers" wound up being chained to bridges in Yugoslavia, why the UN intervention there was a joke until the Americans threatened to bomb the hell out of the Serbs. Only then, only when there was a legitimate fear of force being used did the atrocities come to an end. The morons who want us to return to being "observers" don't even know what they're talking about. There are very few conflicts anywhere today which have much use for such people. One of the columnists said the other day, of Afghanistan, to paraphrase "In a conflict between people whose primary concern is their IRAs and RSPs and people who glory in the death of their sons, offered up to Allah in suicide attacks, there can be no doubt about the eventual winner." Many, perhaps even most in the West, have no stomach for a fight. That does not bode well for the future. The Muslim world is very young, and growing both in numbers and in fanaticism, while the West is older, its numbers shrinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 A lot of Canadians are ignorant and stupid about anything to do with the military. They've been soaking in that gushy liberal propaganda about us as the noble peacekeepers for a generation, and a lot of the dumber ones actually believe it. I doubt it, I think what's really happened is that most Canadians have come to realize that virtually everything they have heard is exactly that, propaganda, from all angles of the political spectrum. I think the idealists amongst us would still like to think there is something worth believing in within all the high falutin' rhetoric that gets dished out but the level of skepticism and cynicism is just to great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I doubt it, I think what's really happened is that most Canadians have come to realize that virtually everything they have heard is exactly that, propaganda, from all angles of the political spectrum. I think the idealists amongst us would still like to think there is something worth believing in within all the high falutin' rhetoric that gets dished out but the level of skepticism and cynicism is just to great. I am an idealist. Which is why I am never satisfied with anything. The idealist in me says that we're going to try and save Afghanistan from becoming the same sort of shithole as Somalia is. I suspect that if we lose there we'll lose Pakistan, and eventually, the only thing the West will be able to do is establish some sort of cordon sanitaire around much the Muslim world, enforced with robot drones that kill anything that tries to move across its borders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 .... The blame has to go to Bush and his gang for pulling out so early the first time and going into Iraq. Really? You mean that Bush prevented Canada from saving the day by deploying more troops, armour, airlift, tactical aircraft, ROVs, etc. ? And spending more billions and lives than the Americans? And waving the magic "peacekeeping" wand? Maybe you should have taken the Iraq deal instead of the political glory and refuge of Afghanistan while shortchanging your own troops. You might be home by now. Bush is gone....the only one left to blame is yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 US foreign policy for the last 30 years might be blamed for the mess in Afghanistan, but it was a mess well before Bush sent the troops there and he really didn't make it any worse than it already was (i'm not defending Bush I just don't think you understand what it's like there)Culturally, Afghanistan is about 10,000 years behind the rest of the world. For longer than history has been written, it's been a stinkhole country full of warring tribles with a literacy rate lower than a Canadian kindergarten class'. The place is an absolute mess. It's been that way longer than anyone can remember. Nothing we've done lately has made it worse, it's just it might be well beyond saving. If Pakistan would clamp down on its militant north and police its own borders, things would be about 500x easier than it is now. Unfortunately, it doesn't. The international force there now is facing the same problems the Soviets did in the 80's. To pacify Afghanistan you'd have to move in to Northern Pakistan, and I don't think anyone's too excited about that prospect. afghanistan was on it's way to joining the modern world when the USA decided to interfer with the soviet presence there by arming and training religious extremists to over throw a secular government determined to bring the country into the 20th century...the place is a mess now because of the cold war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Poll taken has more Canadians wanting out military to return to "peacekeeping" rather than enter into a "seek and kill" mode we have in Afghanistan. BTW, I just heard on the news, that a US General is saying that Afghanistan is looking more like a losing battle. The blame has to go to Bush and his gang for pulling out so early the first time and going into Iraq. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090920/...afghan_cda_poll If it's all Bush's fault for pulling out so early, how do you think a return to peacekeeping is going to solve the problem? Just how would that work if the problem exists because Bush ended the fighting there too early? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 I am an idealist. Which is why I am never satisfied with anything. I hear you. The idealist in me says that we're going to try and save Afghanistan from becoming the same sort of shithole as Somalia is. I suspect that if we lose there we'll lose Pakistan, and eventually, the only thing the West will be able to do is establish some sort of cordon sanitaire around much the Muslim world, enforced with robot drones that kill anything that tries to move across its borders. I think we'd be better off placing your cordon sanitaire around our own borders and let the world take take care of itself. Who said it's always the world's responsibilty to try and save a country from itself? Surely not those who say people have the right to fail and that governments should avoid trying to pick everyone up, especially those who refuse to help themselves and change their ways. Why not the same attitude towards countries? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 If it's all Bush's fault for pulling out so early, how do you think a return to peacekeeping is going to solve the problem? Just how would that work if the problem exists because Bush ended the fighting there too early? Excellent question......perhaps some believed that more massive engagements and killing on a much larger scale was the path to smooth and blissful blue beret "peacekeeping" with hardly a care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 afghanistan was on it's way to joining the modern world when the USA decided to interfer with the soviet presence there by arming and training religious extremists to over throw a secular government determined to bring the country into the 20th century...the place is a mess now because of the cold war... Actually it was the secular government that was overthrown by the Soviets, who place a new leader in charge of a new secular government. The insurgency against that soviet installed secular government was in full swing even before the US got involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Actually it was the secular government that was overthrown by the Soviets, who place a new leader in charge of a new secular government. The insurgency against that soviet installed secular government was in full swing even before the US got involved. Not nice to ruin the myths with facts.....shame on you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 (edited) Many, perhaps even most in the West, have no stomach for a fight. The west has no stomach for a fight that means nothing to them. It's natural that the conviction of someone fighting in their homeland against foreign invaders is going to be stronger. The resolve of the Canadian public for fighting in a shithole in the middle of nowhere is hardly surprising. That does not bode well for the future. The Muslim world is very young, and growing both in numbers and in fanaticism, while the West is older, its numbers shrinking. The cultural pre-eminence of the West is barely in its infancy and destroyed the Soviet Union and is steadily eroding the foundations of China, North Korea and others. The West isn't weakening, it's just the rest of the world is adopting our customs and catching up. The fundamentalist Muslim world is weakening steadily and the longer it holds out on democracy and civil rights the worse and further it will marginalize itself. The religion itself may be growing, but that's more a testament to how appealing fundamentalism is to people with low standards of living. Islam isn't the problem. It's fundamentalism and fundamentalism is rejected by a good portion of the Islamic world and by the vast majority of Muslims in Canada and the West. Edited September 21, 2009 by Moonbox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wyly Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Actually it was the secular government that was overthrown by the Soviets, who place a new leader in charge of a new secular government. The insurgency against that soviet installed secular government was in full swing even before the US got involved. one secular government overthrew the earlier one which had ousted the king...the soviets did not overthrow the government and there was considerable internal dispute in the Kremlin in regards to sending in troops but did so reluctantly at the request of the new socialist government of Afghanistan... the insurgency had little chance vs the soviets with out US military aid and training...the situation today Afghanistan is what the USA created... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 The cultural pre-eminence of the West is barely in its infancy and destroyed the Soviet Union and is steadily eroding the foundations of China, North Korea and others. Please...these are collpasing under the weight of their own inconsistent crap. The west should take a cue. The West isn't weakening, it's just the rest of the world is adopting our customs and catching up. The fundamentalist Muslim world is weakening steadily and the longer it holds out on democracy and civil rights the worse and further it will marginalize itself. The religion itself may be growing, but that's more a testament to how appealing fundamentalism is to people with low standards of living. Islam isn't the problem. It's fundamentalism and fundamentalism is rejected by a good portion of the Islamic world and by the vast majority of Muslims in Canada and the West. Religious fundamentalism is celebrated by many people in the west and politicians of all stripes can be found sucking up to it to get elected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 .....the insurgency had little chance vs the soviets with out US military aid and training...the situation today Afghanistan is what the USA created... This is ludicrous considering that the "insurgency" is quite capable against US and NATO forces today...they certainly had more than "little chance". The Soviets suffered much larger losses, with and without American intervention. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.Dancer Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 one secular government overthrew the earlier one which had ousted the king...the soviets did not overthrow the government and there was considerable internal dispute in the Kremlin in regards to sending in troops but did so reluctantly at the request of the new socialist government of Afghanistan...the insurgency had little chance vs the soviets with out US military aid and training...the situation today Afghanistan is what the USA created... Don't forget, the Soviets murdered the Afghan leader and they replaced him with another. And also, the Afghan Government forces were losing before the Soviets invaded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted September 21, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Really? You mean that Bush prevented Canada from saving the day by deploying more troops, armour, airlift, tactical aircraft, ROVs, etc. ? And spending more billions and lives than the Americans? And waving the magic "peacekeeping" wand? Maybe you should have taken the Iraq deal instead of the political glory and refuge of Afghanistan while shortchanging your own troops. You might be home by now.Bush is gone....the only one left to blame is yourself. "Pulling out too early" has been said over and over on US TV concerning how Bush, but really it was Cheney telling Bushy what to do. This has nothing to do with Canada because when it comes to military action the US will also insist on being in control. Face it, the uS left too early and the Taliban got back in and now, you have a really deadly mess in the Middle-East! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Poll taken has more Canadians wanting out military to return to "peacekeeping" rather than enter into a "seek and kill" mode we have in Afghanistan. BTW, I just heard on the news, that a US General is saying that Afghanistan is looking more like a losing battle. The blame has to go to Bush and his gang for pulling out so early the first time and going into Iraq. http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/090920/...afghan_cda_pollBush is gone....the only one left to blame is yourself. doubt it would have made a difference as 'conventional wisdom' says Afghanistan is not winnable - at any time. However, you too easily and quickly dispatch U.S. obligations associated with self-assigned World Policeman's rights/prerogatives... just because the neo-con pack had greater aspirations in Iraq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest American Woman Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 "Pulling out too early" has been said over and over on US TV concerning how Bush, but really it was Cheney telling Bushy what to do. This has nothing to do with Canada because when it comes to military action the US will also insist on being in control. Face it, the uS left too early and the Taliban got back in and now, you have a really deadly mess in the Middle-East! So I'll ask again. If "pulling out too early" created a "deadly mess," how is Canada's basically "pulling out" in regards to fighting, and returning to peacekeeping, going to make things better? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 Don't forget, the Soviets murdered the Afghan leader and they replaced him with another. With member countries either reluctant or unable to add military resources, NATO is now seeking assistance from Russia, its erstwhile Cold War enemy and one-time "evil occupier" of Afghanistan.Source Now that's what I call adding insult to injury. Just how many super-rogues will it take to put one stone-age culture out of its misery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 So I'll ask again.If "pulling out too early" created a "deadly mess," how is Canada's basically "pulling out" in regards to fighting, and returning to peacekeeping, going to make things better? I expect the article is generalized without regard to current engagements. In any case, Parliament has dictated the 2011 shift away from active combat - regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Moore Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 So I'll ask again.If "pulling out too early" created a "deadly mess," how is Canada's basically "pulling out" in regards to fighting, and returning to peacekeeping, going to make things better? The obvious answer: It Isn't We have a responsibility to resolve the conflicts we begin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 The obvious answer: It Isn'tWe have a responsibility to resolve the conflicts we begin. No it certainly isn't especially given that we can't get people to admit that our side even started any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bush_cheney2004 Posted September 21, 2009 Report Share Posted September 21, 2009 "Pulling out too early" has been said over and over on US TV concerning how Bush, but really it was Cheney telling Bushy what to do. This has nothing to do with Canada because when it comes to military action the US will also insist on being in control. Face it, the uS left too early and the Taliban got back in and now, you have a really deadly mess in the Middle-East! You either own your decisions or you don't...too late to whine now after smugly declaring your moral superiority for a mission in Afghanistan instead of Iraq. If you can/could have done better...then go for it. But we all know what the score is there.....and Canadian Forces paid the price...not you. Canada's self declared mandate ends in 2011....try to support your troops at least until then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.