Guest American Woman Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 Absolutely incorrect. This happens in other cultures too. Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings Although Sikhs and Hindus do sometimes commit such murders, honor killings, both worldwide and in the West, are mainly Muslim-on-Muslim crimes. In this study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84 percent) were Muslims, with only a few Sikhs and even fewer Hindus perpetrating honor killings; in Europe, Muslims comprised an even larger majority at 96 percent while Sikhs were a tiny percentage. In Muslim countries, obviously almost all the perpetrators were Muslims. With only two exceptions, the victims were all members of the same religious group as their murderers. The stats seem to be well sourced/documented. However, just because it's predominantly carried out by Muslims doesn't mean it's a "Muslim thing," as most Muslims by far condemn the practice. Quote
Guest Peeves Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings Although Sikhs and Hindus do sometimes commit such murders, honor killings, both worldwide and in the West, are mainly Muslim-on-Muslim crimes. In this study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84 percent) were Muslims, with only a few Sikhs and even fewer Hindus perpetrating honor killings; in Europe, Muslims comprised an even larger majority at 96 percent while Sikhs were a tiny percentage. In Muslim countries, obviously almost all the perpetrators were Muslims. With only two exceptions, the victims were all members of the same religious group as their murderers. The stats seem to be well sourced/documented. However, just because it's predominantly carried out by Muslims doesn't mean it's a "Muslim thing," as most Muslims by far condemn the practice. Very true, just as FGM. It's not in the religion, it's usually a chauvinistic cultural practice committed when a man feels his honor has been besmirched. Quote
fellowtraveller Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 Worldwide Trends in Honor Killings Although Sikhs and Hindus do sometimes commit such murders, honor killings, both worldwide and in the West, are mainly Muslim-on-Muslim crimes. In this study, worldwide, 91 percent of perpetrators were Muslims. In North America, most killers (84 percent) were Muslims, with only a few Sikhs and even fewer Hindus perpetrating honor killings; in Europe, Muslims comprised an even larger majority at 96 percent while Sikhs were a tiny percentage. In Muslim countries, obviously almost all the perpetrators were Muslims. With only two exceptions, the victims were all members of the same religious group as their murderers. The stats seem to be well sourced/documented. However, just because it's predominantly carried out by Muslims doesn't mean it's a "Muslim thing," as most Muslims by far condemn the practice. The whitest of whitebread Westerners routinely kill their spouses for the suspicion or actuality of infidelity. Are these crimes included in your stats as honour killings? Quote The government should do something.
Wild Bill Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 The whitest of whitebread Westerners routinely kill their spouses for the suspicion or actuality of infidelity. Are these crimes included in your stats as honour killings? Yes, I hear they do. Both of them! I love how people will make mice nuts and mountains morally equivalent. Quote "A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul." -- George Bernard Shaw "There is no point in being difficult when, with a little extra effort, you can be completely impossible."
Boges Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) The whitest of whitebread Westerners routinely kill their spouses for the suspicion or actuality of infidelity. Are these crimes included in your stats as honour killings? I think those are generally crimes of passion and involve revenge. For example if you caught your wife cheating on you. Women could be equally as prone to this. It's certainly not something found only in Western cultures. It's also not like they are trying to purify their family in the eyes of God. Also in Muslim countries women can be killed for being the victim of rape. I don't see this happening in the west. Edited January 30, 2012 by Boges Quote
Guest American Woman Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 The whitest of whitebread Westerners routinely kill their spouses for the suspicion or actuality of infidelity. Are these crimes included in your stats as honour killings? "Routinely?" You got any proof of that? At any rate, they aren't "honor killings" - they don't do it thinking they have the right or that it should be allowed/above the law - and it isn't. Furthermore, they are acts of anger - not "honor." But out of curiosity, surely you don't think "infidelity" is comparable to "expressing a desire to attend college, have careers, live independent lives, have non-Muslim friends (including boyfriends with whom they may or may not be sexually involved), choose their own husbands, refuse to marry their first cousins, or want to leave an abusive husband?" Because while it's normal to be angry over infidelity, it's not to normal to have the same reaction to the reasons given for honor killings. In other words, do "whitebread westerners routinely" kill their spouses and children for "expressing a desire to attend college, have careers, live independent lives, have non-Muslim [fill in the blank] friends (including boyfriends with whom they may or may not be sexually involved), choose their own husbands, refuse to marry their first cousins, or want to leave an abusive husband?" - thinking it's within their rights to do so? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 However, just because it's predominantly carried out by Muslims doesn't mean it's a "Muslim thing," as most Muslims by far condemn the practice. Indeed. I just read about a case which seemed to be carried out by a Canadian of European descent. I would never make assumptions about his culture or his religion being behind it. I would assume that anger is a big part of it, though. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
cybercoma Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 There has to be some proof of mental abuse, too. If every parent of every teenager who said they were afraid of their parents and/or that their parents were mean/abusive were investigated solely on the claim of the teenager, social services likely wouldn't have time to do anything else. It's all too easy to see these things in hindsight, but if every parent who ever had words with their teenagers or ever spoke ill of them out of anger had social services show up a their door, I'm sure there would be a lot of objection to that. I'm not defending the father by any means, but as I said, hindsight is 20/20 - and there has to be a basis for social services to intervene. It's snowing in hell again. I agree with AW. The irony to Boges's demand is that he would probably be the first person to say that the CAS is being too intrusive if they began taking away more children. He would criticize the government as being overly agressive interfering with parents' rights to raise their children as they see fit, etc. Quote
fellowtraveller Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 "Routinely?" You got any proof of that? At any rate, they aren't "honor killings" - they don't do it thinking they have the right or that it should be allowed/above the law - and it isn't. Furthermore, they are acts of anger - not "honor." But out of curiosity, surely you don't think "infidelity" is comparable to "expressing a desire to attend college, have careers, live independent lives, have non-Muslim friends (including boyfriends with whom they may or may not be sexually involved), choose their own husbands, refuse to marry their first cousins, or want to leave an abusive husband?" Because while it's normal to be angry over infidelity, it's not to normal to have the same reaction to the reasons given for honor killings. In other words, do "whitebread westerners routinely" kill their spouses and children for "expressing a desire to attend college, have careers, live independent lives, have non-Muslim [fill in the blank] friends (including boyfriends with whom they may or may not be sexually involved), choose their own husbands, refuse to marry their first cousins, or want to leave an abusive husband?" - thinking it's within their rights to do so? I do not see any substantibve difference in the not-so-different cultural reasons for killing a woman for her sexuality. The only difference is in degree, in perception. The result is the same. Very interesting that people think killing a woman for supposed infidelity is somehow substantively diffferent from killing a woman for expressing her sexuality by wearing revealing clothing. It doesn't make any difference at all to the woman, she is dead. Yet one is an 'honour killing' and the other is a routine occurence in every Western city and is a 'crime of passion'., Honour killings are equally passionate and both are equally reprehensible. Quote The government should do something.
Scotty Posted January 30, 2012 Report Posted January 30, 2012 Indeed. I just read about a case which seemed to be carried out by a Canadian of European descent. I would never make assumptions about his culture or his religion being behind it. Cite? Name? Quote It is an inverted moral calculus that tries to persuade the world to demonize one state that tries its civilized best to abide in a difficult time and place, and rides merrily by the examples and practices of dozens of states and leaderships that drop into brutality every day without a twinge of regret or a whisper of condemnation. - Rex Murphy
capricorn Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I do not see any substantibve difference in the not-so-different cultural reasons for killing a woman for her sexuality. The only difference is in degree, in perception. The result is the same. Very interesting that people think killing a woman for supposed infidelity is somehow substantively diffferent from killing a woman for expressing her sexuality by wearing revealing clothing. It doesn't make any difference at all to the woman, she is dead. Yet one is an 'honour killing' and the other is a routine occurence in every Western city and is a 'crime of passion'., Honour killings are equally passionate and both are equally reprehensible. I too don't see a difference insofar as prosecuting is concerned. Life/lives lost at the hands of one or more perps. Murder plain and simple, and most foul. In the Shafia case, the point was made that the Crown didn't have to prove motive to determine guilt. Yet, raising the element of "honour killing" went to unearthing, in the Crown's view, why the convicted trio resorted to murder. It's an element piled on to the evidence. So as you raise, in the case of murder because of infidelity, the same would apply. Once it is proved through evidence that the perp(s) committed the murder, motive is rather secondary in a finding of guilt, but if motive can be ascribed it serves to solidify a prosecutor's case. As someone said in an interview, the element of "honour killing" tied the whole case together. Edited January 31, 2012 by capricorn Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Guest American Woman Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) I do not see any substantibve difference in the not-so-different cultural reasons for killing a woman for her sexuality. The only difference is in degree, in perception. The result is the same. Of course the result is the same, but come on - being angry over infidelity and being angry over a woman wearing a pair of jeans, wanting a job, a daughter/sister wanting to wear jeans, wanting her own life? The man was wronged in the first instance, and women commit "crimes of passion" too - and they are generally not premeditated. Infidelity would anger anyone - a woman wearing jeans, not so much. Furthermore, they realize they have no right to kill - they don't expect the law, or their 'community,' to understand and allow/overlook it as their right and/or duty. There is a difference and if we do not recognize and address it, then we cannot help prevent it. Very interesting that people think killing a woman for supposed infidelity is somehow substantively diffferent from killing a woman for expressing her sexuality by wearing revealing clothing. There is a difference in the behavior, and if you don't recognize that, I have to wonder why. No one is saying one woman deserves to die more than the other, but premeditated murder is different from crimes of passion - and anger to the point of killing a woman for wearing jeans or wanting a career or not wanting to live under a burka - and thinking one has the right to kill, for honor, is different. The reasoning, the emotions, the planning, the mindset - all different. It doesn't make any difference at all to the woman, she is dead. And a victim who is killed is dead all the same whether it's first degree murder, second degree murder, or manslaughter - yet there is a recognizable difference between such acts. Yet one is an 'honour killing' and the other is a routine occurence in every Western city and is a 'crime of passion'., Honour killings are equally passionate and both are equally reprehensible. Of course both are equally reprehensible - who has said otherwise? - but they are not "equally passionate." If you would be just as "passionate," ie: angry, about a wife wanting a career, a daughter wanting to wear jeans/wanting to marry the man of her choice, not wanting to wear a hijab/burka, etc. - as a spouse cheating on you, I have to wonder where you are coming from. Edited January 31, 2012 by American Woman Quote
capricorn Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 There is a difference and if we do not recognize and address it, then we cannot help prevent it.[ Ah. Here is where I agree with you AW. But I'm thinking about this outside the criminal justice realm. Aren't we speaking here of outreach to women who are most likely to be suffering from isolation and cruelty due to extreme, culturally based male and family domination? There is so much to be done in that sphere I don't know where to begin. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
Guest American Woman Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 ...I'm thinking about this outside the criminal justice realm. Aren't we speaking here of outreach to women who are most likely to be suffering from isolation and cruelty due to extreme, culturally based male and family domination? There is so much to be done in that sphere I don't know where to begin Yes, that's it exactly. People who are in the position to help need to be educated, need to know what signs to pick up on/look for, how to draw women out - gain their trust - and know how best to protect them. The message that such a mindset will not be tolerated in our countries needs to be put out there. I do fear that the concern over being PC/offending people is hindering this from happening. Recognizing the problem while recognizing that it's not a "Muslim practice" and getting that message out there too, is, I believe, necessary. We all need to stop walking on eggshells; our nations do not tolerate such a mindset and we should not fear dealing with this issue head-on. Quote
capricorn Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Yes, that's it exactly. People who are in the position to help need to be educated, need to know what signs to pick up on/look for, how to draw women out - gain their trust - and know how best to protect them. You'll be interested to read what the Toronto District School Board is doing to assimilate immigrants into Canadian society. The Shafia trial, like the Parvez trial before it, has produced calls for more “assimilation” and “integration” by Canadian immigrants — Muslims, in particular. This is part of a larger backlash against multiculturalism that gained force after 9/11. Stephen Harper’s Conservatives spoke for the majority when they rewrote the Canadian citizenship guide to specify that “Canada’s openness and generosity do not extend to barbaric cultural practices that tolerate spousal abuse, ‘honour killings,’ female genital mutilation, forced marriage or other gender-based violence.”But “assimilation” and “integration” are just words. Immigrants do not instantly adopt modern liberal notions of gender equality just because we ask them to. Nor will women who feel anxious and isolated in a new country throw off their veils and report their abusive husbands just because they see a well-intentioned public-service announcement in Arabic or Urdu. Calls for “assimilation” aren’t of much use unless they are accompanied by an understanding of how immigrants actually learn and adopt Canadian values. For many immigrant women, as it turns out, integration comes through their four-year-old children. Which is to say: Their first regular interaction with wider Canadian society often is the daily trip to and from the local public kindergarten, where they come into contact with teachers, school administrators and other parents with different backgrounds and skin colours. ....con'd http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2012/01/30/jonathan-kay-on-assimilating-immigrants-one-tale-from-the-front-lines/ This type of endeavor pays dividends. Quote "We always want the best man to win an election. Unfortunately, he never runs." Will Rogers
-TSS- Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 It speaks volumes that I couldn't find this news story anywhere on the Finnish media. I wonder why. Because it paints the muslims in a bad light? However, the whole concept of honour killings is just insane. The correct term would be coward killings. Quote
William Ashley Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) who CARES!! a white guy killed someone stored them in their freezer and munched on them from time to time, are we still talking about it today? no. next thing you know we'll be blaming honour killings on the missing babies. fact is rednecks do this sort of thing all the time.. oh my wife tattled on me beating her I'm going to go blow her head off syndrome. This isn't any different. It just takes a different turn when the boyfriend and his daughter both get shot for sleeping in his bed and leaving the door unlocked. Fact is from those mulsims I talked to, the guy is often punished too but it doesn't leave the father feeling any less shamed, and adultury often meets with murders here. IT IS NOT DIFFERENT GET OVER IT... if this wern't a muslim you wouldn't care GROW UP! Oh look here an honour killing by some white waspy dude? http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/84883437.html?page=1 ITs A FREAKEN FELONY IN THE LOWER LANDS. Then people on here claim America is SUPERIOR CULTURALLY.. fact is that here in canada indictments mean they are desrving of capital punishment that is where the whole indictment thing originates from.. that is what a friggen felony is! look Google rank #3 for shot wife for adultery is "honor killing" http://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=shot+wife+for+adultery&oq=shot+wife+for+adultery&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=0l0l0l9497l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=7320b5f67b1fc46a&biw=1280&bih=695 #2 is the taliban stoning and #1 is the mentally diseased white guy who did it caues he was a victim of his wife screwing around on him. RIGHT RIGHT.. honour doesn't matter, right your honour? Edited January 31, 2012 by William Ashley Quote I was here.
Michael Hardner Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Cite? Name? "Greenspan - The Case for the Defense" (Jonas and Greenspan) - The Coluccio Case - p55 "It only goes to show how difficult it is to judge individual behavior by the standards of a different culture. In many cultures distant from us... suicide for a proud and decent person could be a perfectly normal response to a perceived loss of family honour" Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
jbg Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Ironically enough honour killings are like acts of vengeance too. How so, against "Western imperialism" or the "Zionist entity"? Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
The_Squid Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 It speaks volumes that I couldn't find this news story anywhere on the Finnish media. I wonder why. Because it paints the muslims in a bad light? However, the whole concept of honour killings is just insane. The correct term would be coward killings. You get a lot of coverage about crimes that occur in Canada in the Finnish media? Quote
huh Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 who CARES!! a white guy killed someone stored them in their freezer and munched on them from time to time, are we still talking about it today? no. next thing you know we'll be blaming honour killings on the missing babies. fact is rednecks do this sort of thing all the time.. oh my wife tattled on me beating her I'm going to go blow her head off syndrome. This isn't any different. It just takes a different turn when the boyfriend and his daughter both get shot for sleeping in his bed and leaving the door unlocked. Fact is from those mulsims I talked to, the guy is often punished too but it doesn't leave the father feeling any less shamed, and adultury often meets with murders here. IT IS NOT DIFFERENT GET OVER IT... if this wern't a muslim you wouldn't care GROW UP! Oh look here an honour killing by some white waspy dude? http://www.620wtmj.com/news/local/84883437.html?page=1 ITs A FREAKEN FELONY IN THE LOWER LANDS. Then people on here claim America is SUPERIOR CULTURALLY.. fact is that here in canada indictments mean they are desrving of capital punishment that is where the whole indictment thing originates from.. that is what a friggen felony is! look Google rank #3 for shot wife for adultery is "honor killing" http://www.google.ca/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=shot+wife+for+adultery&oq=shot+wife+for+adultery&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=0l0l0l9497l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=7320b5f67b1fc46a&biw=1280&bih=695 #2 is the taliban stoning and #1 is the mentally diseased white guy who did it caues he was a victim of his wife screwing around on him. RIGHT RIGHT.. honour doesn't matter, right your honour? How many white families have killed 4 other women in their family because they behaved dishonaorably in their eyes and the eyes of thier religiion? Go ahead, I dare you, find one, now I know that being a liberal you are desperate to hold on to the multi cultural dream so its impossible for you to see the truth here, but go ahead if you can, find one other example that ticks off these boxes. This is nothing like one white guy killing his wife, keep trying, you're failing miserably. Quote
sharkman Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 Good grief William. 1)This has absolutely nothing to do with redneck hicks. 2)Use less double spaces. Interesting that the Mainstream Media in Finland didn't see fit to cover this. The truth needs to be told. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 How many white families have killed 4 other women in their family because they behaved dishonaorably in their eyes and the eyes of thier religiion? Go ahead, I dare you, find one, now I know that being a liberal you are desperate to hold on to the multi cultural dream so its impossible for you to see the truth here, but go ahead if you can, find one other example that ticks off these boxes. This is nothing like one white guy killing his wife, keep trying, you're failing miserably. I posted one above from 1980. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
GostHacked Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 I posted one above from 1980. Murder is murder, regardless of the reasons, and should be dealt just as that. Justice was served here and they all got life sentences. People are going to bitch either damn way. If they got off, our justice system sucks and they hate Islam, but if they got off, we would say our system sucks and justice was not served. Murder is murder and deplorable no matter what the circumstances are. Quote
cybercoma Posted January 31, 2012 Report Posted January 31, 2012 How many white families have killed 4 other women in their family because they behaved dishonaorably in their eyes and the eyes of thier religiion? Go ahead, I dare you, find one, now I know that being a liberal you are desperate to hold on to the multi cultural dream so its impossible for you to see the truth here, but go ahead if you can, find one other example that ticks off these boxes. This is nothing like one white guy killing his wife, keep trying, you're failing miserably. It's one case of family violence out of many. This one is particularly egregious, but something this bad is rare. That's why the media has been covering it so thoroughly. Here's StatsCan's information on domestic homicide that was released this month: Spousal homicides •Between 2000 and 2009, there were 738 spousal homicides, representing 16% of all solved homicides and nearly half (47%) of all family-related homicides. •The 2009 spousal homicide rate remained stable for the third consecutive year. This follows nearly three decades of gradual decline. •Women continue to be more likely than men to be victims of spousal homicide. In 2009, the rate of spousal homicide against women was about three times higher than that for men. •Between 2000 and 2009, men were most likely to be killed by a common-law partner (66%) whereas women were slightly more likely to have been killed by their legally married spouse (39%) than by a common-law partner (33%). In addition, female victims of spousal homicide were more likely than male victims to be killed by a partner from whom they were separated (26% versus 11%). •For both male and female spouses, homicide rates peaked among 15 to 24 year olds and declined with increasing age. •Stabbings were the most common method used to commit spousal homicide, particularly against male victims. Family-related homicides against children and youth •Over the past 10 years, there were 326 homicides committed by a family member against a child or youth (0 to 17 years), accounting for 7% of all solved homicides and 21% of all family-related homicides. •Parents committed the majority (84%) of family-related homicides against children and youth. •Infants under the age of one experienced higher rates of family homicide compared to older children. •Children under 4 years of age who were killed by a family member were most often shaken or beaten to death whereas older children were most often killed with a weapon, such as a knife or firearm. Family-related homicides against seniors •There were 160 family-related homicides against seniors (65 years and older) between 2000 and 2009, accounting for 4% of all solved homicides and 10% of all family-related homicides. •The rate of family-related homicides against seniors has gradually declined over the past 30 years. In 2009, the rate of family-related homicide against seniors was 61% lower than in 1980. •Senior women were most likely to be killed by their spouse (41%) or son (36%), while the majority of senior men were killed by their son (72%). •Frustration, anger and despair was the most common motivation for a family member killing a senior person, resulting in about one-third (33%) of all such homicides between 2000 and 2009. Another 26% of family-related homicides against seniors stemmed from an argument. Source: http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-224-x/2010000/aftertoc-aprestdm2-eng.htm Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.