Why Were Women Happier Before?

[Oleg Bach]

Feminism short consists of Karl Marx using his daughter as a pawn ---- to propogate what a male dictator wants through the use of females.... Hitlers social engineers along with the stolen research and theory of Freud - said "Give me control of the woman and I have control of the children - and the men will follow like lonely dogs" - to para phrase - this movent was not the freeing of woman but the abuse and use of them to enslave.

[betsy]

I don't think so betsy. As I recall, the feminist movement was all about getting women out of the home and into paid employment.

I seem to recall that the feminist movement was trying to get the court to recognize home-making as an important and real job.....because women were not being treated fairly in divorce settlements - the court hardly placed any value on the contributions they made as home-makers. Women were not in any position to be independent financially since they've given their time and effort in being wives and mothers, so they were dependent on their husbands.

But I don't doubt you for what you remember...for it also makes sense that they would encourage women to get out and be employed - so they wouldn't be totally dependent on their husbands, to have the confidence in knowing they can be independent should they wish to.

I remember the encouragements to pursue studies and adult courses, to learn to do the books or accounting in the home, the family finances, how-to chores from changing light bulbs, fixing things around the house (that men normally do)....to be self-reliant.

In those days, the emphasis was to be self-reliant in the event of divorce....or widowhood. So a woman wouldn't be so helpless and lost, if her spouse is suddenlly gone. Which is only practical.

And also the women who were already working out of the house....those who were employed (usually in factories, non-managerial positions)....were also not being treated as fairly as the men.

But over time, the movement pursued other goals. It evolved. And the face of feminism changed.

I don't recoghnize it anymore. It doesn't represent me...or speak for me.

Edited May 26, 2009 by betsy

[jdobbin]

I don't think so betsy. As I recall, the feminist movement was all about getting women out of the home and into paid employment. Largely, their definition of equality was that women should compete for and hold important jobs that were traditionally held by men. Feminists thought the only way women could become equal is if they occupied corporate boardrooms and rose to decision-making positions. Heck, in the early days women even dressed like men because they thought it would give them an edge in the workplace.

You're both incorrect. The feminist movement was about a lot of things you take for granted such as the vote. I suppose we could go back to not having the vote. Think women might be happier?

[capricorn]

You're both incorrect. The feminist movement was about a lot of things you take for granted such as the vote.

I suppose you could say that the suffragette movement gave birth to feminism.

The first-wave of feminism began in the United Kingdom and the United States around the nineteenth century and lasted until the early twentieth century. The main focus of this movement at this time was on de jure inequalities, or officially mandated inequalities.

---

The second-wave of feminism refers to the period of feminism

beginning in the early 1960's and extending through the late 1980's. Unlike the first-wave, the second-wave's focus was on the de facto inequalities, or unofficial inequalities, and also felt that de jure and de facto inequalities were inextricably linked issues that needed to be addressed together if there was ever going to be any hope of change. This wave encouraged women to understand aspects of their personal lives and deeply politicized, and reflective of a sexists structure of power. The key word of this wave was education, of women and of men.

---

Therefore, this leads us to the third-wave of feminism which began in the early 1990's and is continuing today. Since there was this feeling of failure left throughout, the third-wave rose as a response to this felling, and in full force. It is also believed that this wave was in response to the backlash against initiatives and movements that were unexpectedly created by the second-wave.

---

In conclusion, feminism is not some simple thing that people can generalize, like it is just an excuse for women to kick men in the balls, and not take care of themselves, or that men and women must be equal at all costs. Feminism is a movement which has been incredibly important to the success and failures of this country and has been a necessary journey for the women in our country to travel upon so that they can discover and create their own unique place in society.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/3...iew.html?cat=75

The recollections Betsy and I have are what we, as women, experienced during our own lifetime.

I suppose we could go back to not having the vote. Think women might be happier?

Now you're being silly.

(BTW, you forgot your link to the new political poll you posted about an hour or so ago.)

[jdobbin]

I suppose you could say that the suffragette movement gave birth to feminism.

It indeed was the basis of the feminist movement. Not having the vote, not being able to own property, being treated as property and a host of other mandated unequal treatment led to political activism.

The recollections Betsy and I have are what we, as women, experienced during our own lifetime.

Which some people had a hard time taking a position on because issues like equal pay for equal work were not easily explained or defined.

Now you're being silly.

Am I?

It always surprises me how much people put down the feminist movement. Well, the vote was part of that movement.

Now, we see an article about how women are unhappy. I am sure some of the right wing here would be the first to tell you that women might have been happier without the vote.

(BTW, you forgot your link to the new political poll you posted about an hour or so ago.)

Added it now.

[cybercoma]

Women earn roughly 25% less than men.

The overwhelming majority of rape victims are women, usually attacked by someone they know.

Not only are women the victims of rape, but they are typically the victim in domestic disputes as well.

Women are murdered more often than men in domestic disputes.

Women spend more money on basic things like clothing, toiletries, and grooming because they are socially programmed to view beauty as capital.

There are doctors today that still refuse to give girls birth control pills.

The vaccine that prevents the common types of HPV that cause cervical cancer are not mandatory.

People are still "debating" a woman's right to choose. (The Province of NB, for example, refuses to fund abortions still)

Over 50% of the population is female, yet < 50% of university professors, doctors, lawyers, politicians, and CEOs are female.

Why were women happier before? Feminism brought hope for a better tomorrow. Hope for change. Now that women have been robbed of the fight by being branded as "militant lesbians" if they are feminists, hope has been robbed from them. The problems are improving, but they still exist; however, the fight has been stolen away from women.

[betsy]

The overwhelming majority of rape victims are women, usually attacked by someone they know.

Not only are women the victims of rape, but they are typically the victim in domestic disputes as well.

Women are murdered more often than men in domestic disputes.

EQUALITY! EQUITY!

We should even up the score!

men, you can run but you can't hide!

Ladies....roll up your sleeves! This is going to be bloody!

[Argus]

Women earn roughly 25% less than men.

Because they spend less time in the work place than men, because, doh, they're home having babies and taking care of their children.

The overwhelming majority of rape victims are women, usually attacked by someone they know.

And the relevence of this?

Not only are women the victims of rape, but they are typically the victim in domestic disputes as well.

Again? What has this got to do with what is under discussion? If you want to get into that from what I've seen women precipitate the violence in domestic disputes as often as men. However, being smaller, they tend to be the losers and so the male is charged. Actually, in most cases the male is charged automatically, no matter who started it or who did what.

Why were women happier before? Feminism brought hope for a better tomorrow. Hope for change.

Nice rhetoric. But the fact remains that for a lot of women, possibly even the majority, what it brought was a lousy job that takes them away from their children and puts the kids into daycare.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Argus

[M.Dancer]

People are still "debating" a woman's right to choose. (The Province of NB, for example, refuses to fund abortions still)

Elective surgery is often unfunded. My daughter's braces for instance are not covered....we had to choose and no one inffinged on our right to choose.

Over 50% of the population is female, yet < 50% of university professors, doctors, lawyers, politicians, and CEOs are female.

In Canada, for doctors under the age of 54 there are 17,221 female and 23,401 male doctors. Under the age of 35 there are 2,429 female and 1921 male doctors. This has nothing to do with discrimination but everything to do with choice. Woman choose to retire earlier than men....they have in the past chosen to avoid business school....

[cybercoma]

EQUALITY! EQUITY!

We should even up the score!

men, you can run but you can't hide!

Ladies....roll up your sleeves! This is going to be bloody!

You need to read bell hooks. Seizing the reigns of power does nothing for equality and equity, but leaves the oppressive system in place.

[cybercoma]

You're right. Women do it to themselves. They should look in the mirror. It's not like they had to fight for their rights less than a generation ago.

[Borg]

Greg Mankiw offers this link:

Full article here.

But then there is this too:NYT

----

I don't know if anyone can measure happiness, and I am more certain that subjective questionnaires about happiness are largely meaningless. Nevertheless, I suspect that more women today are less happy than 40 years ago (while a few are far happier). And to state this hypothesis in a similar way, I suspect that men today are happier than women are.

Then again, these results may be simply a question of demographics.

In the end no one can make you happy.

If you are not happy make the changes necessary to be happy - or stop complaioning and get on with it.

I wonder why anyone is even interested in measuring happiness - live your life and let others do the same.

Then again - I wonder when the feds will start spending some cash on men's rights?

Not likely!

Borg

[betsy]

You need to read bell hooks. Seizing the reigns of power does nothing for equality and equity, but leaves the oppressive system in place.

Yup.

Just jesting about that....since you've brought up rape and murder. So I figured you were implying we should even up the score.

[betsy]

The new feminist movement had turned the home into a battleground.

It's a constant power struggle for a lot of husbands and wives....even to the simplest things.

[M.Dancer]

The new feminist movement had turned the home into a battleground.

It's a constant power struggle for a lot of husbands and wives....even to the simplest things.

Naa...it's always been that way. It has been a source for inspiration for writers, comedic and dramatic for eons....there are even classical greek plays on the subject....shakespear....chaucer....

[WIP]

And the relevence of this?

Are you saying you don't understand the relevance of "how happy women are" to their likelihood of being victims of violent and/or sexual attacks? Either you're as thick as a brick, or you're a woman-hater...or maybe both.

Again? What has this got to do with what is under discussion? If you want to get into that from what I've seen women precipitate the violence in domestic disputes as often as men. However, being smaller, they tend to be the losers and so the male is charged. Actually, in most cases the male is charged automatically, no matter who started it or who did what.

What Bullshit! Do you go up and start fights with guys who are twice your size? Every asshole who starts a fight, or beats someone up, claims they were provoked. You are making excuses for people who don't deserve any alibis!

Nice rhetoric. But the fact remains that for a lot of women, possibly even the majority, what it brought was a lousy job that takes them away from their children and puts the kids into daycare.

Or maybe the survey is based on subjective, self-reporting data, and is not worth much more than the paper it was written on! Life goes on! Whether or not policy makers wanted women at home or in the workforce, most of the pick and shovel jobs that were only done by men in the past, have all disappeared. There aren't that many jobs today that can't be done equally as well by women, and that has meant an inevitable trend of women moving into the workforce, even in third world countries. The only place this trend has not happened is in conservative Muslim countries.....it would be interesting to see a survey of how happy women are in Saudi Arabia -- off hand I'm guessing that the results would be much worse than the dissatisfaction supposedly discovered in this survey here.

Edited May 28, 2009 by WIP

[betsy]

Naa...it's always been that way. It has been a source for inspiration for writers, comedic and dramatic for eons....there are even classical greek plays on the subject....shakespear....chaucer....

But not as pronounced as today. And the battle of the sexes then were treated lightly...as you say, mostly featured comically. Older generation of couples usually have a united front.

But now, it's a real power struggle.

[betsy]

Some men bend backwards trying to conform to the new Feminist thinking. And by the looks of it...for some women, it's still not enough to make them happy.

I say the problem is in most women. They are torn and more confused than ever which way to go.

The men had now encroached in their own turf - homemaking and child-raising. Whereas before what's always been a badge of honor for mothers - the one who's always there for the child (kissing that boo-boo, sitting up with a sick child, et al) - is no longer exclusive to moms. Dads now wear that badge too.

[Molly]

Because they spend less time in the work place than men, because, doh, they're home having babies and taking care of their children.

That's a cheap, cheesy, and misleading excuse. The fact is that many occupations are still largely unavailable to women, because they would not even be considered, much less hired, at entry level. That kick to the gut at entry level follows them through their entire working lives.

Time off for pregnancy is meaningless when the job is underpaid busywork, rather than an actual career. Women with meaningful, reasonably well-paid occupations don't, for the most part, take that time.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Molly

[M.Dancer]

...as you say, mostly featured comically.

I never said that. I will say that you depth of literature probably wouldn't drown a mouse.

[Topaz]

Why hasn't the Tories pass a bill making equal pay for women?

[kimmy]

Why hasn't the Tories pass a bill making equal pay for women?

Because it's never as simple as that?

I've never heard of circumstances where men with the same seniority are paid more than women in the same job. It's not a problem, and it's a non-issue.

Advocates of this sort of thing usually use vague terms like "equal pay for work of equal value", and ask questions like "why should a construction worker earn more than a school teacher?" or "why should a manual laborer earn more than a retail store worker?" Well, retail store workers do practically nothing, that's why they're paid so modestly. Construction workers are frequently injured and even killed, do exhausting work in often unpleasant conditions, and are usually in short supply; school teachers work 10 months a year and are constantly in oversupply.

If "traditional female" jobs don't pay as well as "traditional male" jobs, maybe the answer would be for women to make different career choices.

-k

[Molly]

Breaking the 'tradition' barrier is a lot easier said than done.

For a start, it means that your qualifications have to wildly exceed all other applicants in order for you to be considered at all. It means, also, that to move up the ladder, it will still have to be true, and that you will have to be the one to point out that fact. Even then, you are likely to spend most of your career watching less qualified, less able people being promoted ahead of you.

[sharkman]

Women earn roughly 25% less than men.

The overwhelming majority of rape victims are women, usually attacked by someone they know.

Not only are women the victims of rape, but they are typically the victim in domestic disputes as well.

Women are murdered more often than men in domestic disputes.

Women spend more money on basic things like clothing, toiletries, and grooming because they are socially programmed to view beauty as capital.

There are doctors today that still refuse to give girls birth control pills.

The vaccine that prevents the common types of HPV that cause cervical cancer are not mandatory.

People are still "debating" a woman's right to choose. (The Province of NB, for example, refuses to fund abortions still)

Over 50% of the population is female, yet < 50% of university professors, doctors, lawyers, politicians, and CEOs are female.

Why were women happier before? Feminism brought hope for a better tomorrow. Hope for change. Now that women have been robbed of the fight by being branded as "militant lesbians" if they are feminists, hope has been robbed from them. The problems are improving, but they still exist; however, the fight has been stolen away from women.

What rubbish. Only took 3 pages to play the rape card. sigh.

Edited May 28, 2009 by sharkman

[WIP]

Some men bend backwards trying to conform to the new Feminist thinking. And by the looks of it...for some women, it's still not enough to make them happy.

At least that's what they say after they've been hammered at divorce court! I suppose some guys marry the wrong woman, but I can't think of many, from my own experience who didn't get what they deserved.

I say the problem is in most women. They are torn and more confused than ever which way to go.

Thanks for showing us that the feminist movement doesn't cut evenly across gender lines. Some men, like myself, support the broader aims of the feminist movement (except for the extreme socialist/anarchist wing), while often it is the Phyliss Schlafly type Christian matrons, who are the worst enemies of freedom for younger women!

Some sociologists who study extremely misogynistic cultures, like Saudi Arabia or countries their mullahs have influence - like Afghanistan and Pakistan, point out that it's not always the men who are the gatekeepers of oppression of women in those societies. Often it's the women; specifically older matrons who feel that their limited status will be threatened if their daughters get jobs, resist an arranged marriage, or have not gone through the circumcision ritual to remove their clitoris -- if it wasn't for the female accomplices, this sort of misogyny would have had to change ages ago, even in the Muslim World.

The men had now encroached in their own turf - homemaking and child-raising. Whereas before what's always been a badge of honor for mothers - the one who's always there for the child (kissing that boo-boo, sitting up with a sick child, et al) - is no longer exclusive to moms. Dads now wear that badge too.

And I proudly wore that badge when my children were younger! My father was the distant, remote authoritarian Christian that you admire - and I hated his guts! I swore that I would do things differently when my time came, and it's hard to break the mold, but I am not the kind of dad my father was! I attended prenatal classes before our first was born, was in the delivery room with each one of them, I changed diapers, did the babysitting and taking the kids to the park - and enjoyed almost every minute of it. I have a stronger relationship with my children because the social norms are a little different than when I grew up.

Just as there is no reason why women shouldn't have opportunities in the workplace, there is no reason why a man can't take on some of the traditional feminine family roles in turn -- and it's better for both men and women to be more flexible, more capable of filling different roles, instead of being bound by archaic rigid traditions!