Jews fleeing France again

[DogOnPorch]

so i still haven't seen any evidence on how multi-culturalism is so scary and why DoP is so scared.

You're putting words in people's mouths.

[JB Globe]

Seeing there was no Islam at the time of the Bible/Torah, it is impossible for there to be inflamatory texts re: Muslims in the Bible/Torah. The reverse isn't true as I'm sure you're aware.

Of course, that didn't stop the countless times in which the bible was INTERPRETED as justifying antisemitism towards Jews in many ways, such as the idea of Jewish Deicide, which has been around for millennia and promoted by establishment figures such as various Popes and reformers like Martin Luther alike.

I could care less if the bible is explicitly antisemitic, because Christianity itself has killed a great number of Jews and has a history of antisemitism. I'm sure it didn't the Jewish victims of the Spanish Inquisition feel any better that they were being executed by the followers of a book that didn't actually have anything against them.

The reverse isn't true as I'm sure you're aware.

Of course I'm aware of the few examples of antisemitism in the entire Qu'ran which is not pulled out of context or mistranslated, such as: 2:61, 5:65, and 7:166. Of course, I'm also aware of the fact that the Qu'ran glorifies Hebrew prophets, disregards the idea of Jewish Deicide, and lays out legal protection for Jews in Muslim societies (which while problematic was still ahead of having ZERO legal protection in Christian societies).

I'm sorry but antisemitism is not a black and white issue. Christians don't have anything to be proud of when it comes to the history of their faith in relating to Jews. From the middle of the first millenia to the last half of the 20th century the threat of violence was a fact of life for Jews living in the majority of Christian societies.

Since you claim that all this is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict...how come there were pogroms in the Levant well before Israel ever came into being?

The same reason that there were pogroms throughout Europe for over a thousand years, right up through this past century: the hundreds throughout Russia and the greatest pogrom of them all under the Third Reich . . . The Christian and Muslims worlds have been throughout the vast majority of their histories places of varying degrees antisemitism.

There is simply no basis to the idea that Muslim societies are, in the grand scheme of things, inherently more anti-semitic than Christian ones.

[DogOnPorch]

Violence re: Jews in Europe sprung from the ol' Blood Libel. You know...Christ Killers, etc. That plus Usery...

[Argus]

There is simply no basis to the idea that Muslim societies are, in the grand scheme of things, inherently more anti-semitic than Christian ones USED TO BE LONG AGO.

Fixed that for ya.

[Oleg Bach]

Okay - I may as well break it to you now - What's left of the old school Christians is waging a war against radical Islam - and those pesky Jews had better show some appreciation for our crusaders abroad...it's either us or them - and we are not allowing Mohamid to take over...sorry - nor King David - or Moses.....on ward!

[Remiel]

Fixed that for ya.

It seems that you may have a problem understanding the word "inherent", Argus. Maybe you should see someone about that.

[JB Globe]

It seems that you may have a problem understanding the word "inherent", Argus. Maybe you should see someone about that.

Beat me to it.

Argus - to add on, in case you missed it earlier in this thread, I said that the reason there is more antisemitism in Muslim nations currently is because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not because Islam is INHERENTLY antisemitic.

[ironstone]

No. The Lefties haven't even caught on in Europe. They're still frantically defending Islamism and all that it entails as nothing more than cultural practices we ought not to judge. I don't think the lefties will really begin to understand what is happening until the Muslim populations grow strong enough to start imposing their will in the ballot box and electing politicians who roll back womens rights, gay rights, and freedom of speech and religion. When homosexuality becomes a crime the Lefties will finally gape and say "Hey, what's going on?"

This is one aspect that the Left must confront sooner or later,the gay rights/same sex marriage debate.They are merciless against Christian opponents of gay marriage and at the same time they defend Islamism.Perhaps they just aren't aware of it yet,but just about ALL Muslims are strongly opposed to gay marriage and the homosexual lifestyle to say the least.It's like a giant elephant coming into the room.There will be a big conflict looming on the horizon,the Left vs. Islam.

[KrustyKidd]

Beat me to it.

Argus - to add on, in case you missed it earlier in this thread, I said that the reason there is more antisemitism in Muslim nations currently is because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not because Islam is INHERENTLY antisemitic.

Google Islamic Jewish persecution and Koran/Jews. Officially, they're sub human and that's well before the Palestinian Issue.

[Rue]

Beat me to it.

Argus - to add on, in case you missed it earlier in this thread, I said that the reason there is more antisemitism in Muslim nations currently is because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not because Islam is INHERENTLY antisemitic.

Excuse me that is just silly. Dhimmitude had nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict nor do the passages in the Koran and Sharia law that defines Jews as infidels, liars, unworthy, etc. In fact anti-semitism and for that matter prejudice against all other non Muslims including Christians, Bahaiis, Hindus, was and remains an essential element of how Muslim is preached and practiced and to try suggest there is no such thing as anti-semitism in the Middle East, it is all just anti-Israel rhetoric is absurd.

I also share Angus' disdain for some of you trying to hide behind the word "inherent". Talk about a toothless word. What do some of you mean when you say "inherent", do you even know?

Interestingly in Constitutional Law no one has a clue what it means so before you rag on Argus about it, some of you do need to provide a definition that doesn't allow you to have it mean whatever you want it to mean.

I may not agree with Argus on many things, but he does not mince his words and I agree with him that mincing words by trying to use words like inherent to putter around an issue and play semantics is pointless in this case.

There you go Argus. I think I usually give you one complement for every shot I take across your bow. I am pretty sure the ration is 1 to 1. Then again if it is not what do you expect...I have bleeding heart tendencies.

[Rue]

Here I know it is a favourite exercise of anti-Israelis to quote Haaretz whenever they can whenever they find an article they think supports their argument and then infer since it is an Israeli newspaper it has to be true.

So here want to read about anti-semitism and its origins in the Muslim world, be my guest:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1078446.html

[Rue]

Here are some web-sites that repudiate the myth that anti-semitism in the Middle East is only related to Israel and being anti-Zionist:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Printable.aspx?ArtId=21014

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf15.html

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/020762.php

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/arab_anti2.html

http://www.cccj-ab.org/joffe.htm

http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPag...70&IID=1554

http://www.zionism.netfirms.com/ArabAntiZionism.htm

http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=arc...r&ID=SR2604

http://sicsa.huji.ac.il/islam.html

There is a text by Andrew Boston entitled: The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism : From Sacred Texts to Solemn History, which clearly documents anti-semtiism from the begnninings of Islam to its current 20th century remodification after the Palestinian conflict.

The fact that a new strain of anti-semitism emerged in the 1930's fueled by the Nazis does not mean dhimmitude did not exist or Jews lived peacefully in the Middle East without anti-semitism prior to that. To even suggest that I would reflect is an attempt to revise and selectively delete the theological roots of anti-semitism in Islamic religion.

[Rue]

Google Islamic Jewish persecution and Koran/Jews. Officially, they're sub human and that's well before the Palestinian Issue.

I backed you up further but I am afraid the response may be I simply reproduced "Zionist apologist" sites.

[DogOnPorch]

Pssst...no bringing up the Mufti. bad, Rue...bad.

[Rue]

Pssst...no bringing up the Mufti. bad, Rue...bad.

Mufti. Bah. A mere annoyance/ Don't get me going on Muhammed though. We go way back. You should here what he said about my great great grandfather Isaac and my great great great grandfather Abe. Now mind you some people tell me when he said what he did he was actually smoking hash hish and his comments were written down on leaves which were then re-written so they may have lost a bit from their original translation but I am pretty sure he said I was a bastard infidel liar. Then again come to think of it, he is probably right.

I better call Melissa Rivers and ask her what I should do.

[DogOnPorch]

Mufti. Bah. A mere annoyance/ Don't get me going on Muhammed though. We go way back. You should here what he said about my great great grandfather Isaac and my great great great grandfather Abe. Now mind you some people tell me when he said what he did he was actually smoking hash hish and his comments were written down on leaves which were then re-written so they may have lost a bit from their original translation but I am pretty sure he said I was a bastard infidel liar. Then again come to think of it, he is probably right.

I better call Melissa Rivers and ask her what I should do.

Every article you posted mentions him (The Grand Mufti Mohammad Haj Amin al-Husseini)...but we're not supposed to.

He's a direct decendant of THE Mohammed...didn'tchaknow?

[jbg]

Excuse me that is just silly. Dhimmitude had nothing to do with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict nor do the passages in the Koran and Sharia law that defines Jews as infidels, liars, unworthy, etc. In fact anti-semitism and for that matter prejudice against all other non Muslims including Christians, Bahaiis, Hindus, was and remains an essential element of how Muslim is preached and practiced and to try suggest there is no such thing as anti-semitism in the Middle East, it is all just anti-Israel rhetoric is absurd.

Dhimmitude comes into play but differently than JB Globe suspects. What the Arab Muslims are saying is they're happy to have Jews living in what's now the State of Israel, but only as subservient dhimmis under Muslim control. It is the belief of many of them that they have a right to run the world, and instruct others what to do, for their benefit of course.

[Argus]

It seems that you may have a problem understanding the word "inherent", Argus. Maybe you should see someone about that.

I actually have quite an excellent vocabulary. Arab culture from top to bottom, reeks of anti-semitism, and always has.

[Argus]

Beat me to it.

Argus - to add on, in case you missed it earlier in this thread, I said that the reason there is more antisemitism in Muslim nations currently is because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not because Islam is INHERENTLY antisemitic.

I don't know that there is MORE anti-semitism in Muslim nations today than in previous years/generations. There is certainly a lot of it, and there has always been a lot of it.

The point I'm making is how absurd it is to draw out comparisons from our past to try to excuse their present.

We're we unsophisticated religious wackos in the past? Sure! But they're unsophisticated religious wackos in the present - which poses considerably more problems.

[dub]

I don't know that there is MORE anti-semitism in Muslim nations today than in previous years/generations. There is certainly a lot of it, and there has always been a lot of it.

The point I'm making is how absurd it is to draw out comparisons from our past to try to excuse their present.

We're we unsophisticated religious wackos in the past? Sure! But they're unsophisticated religious wackos in the present - which poses considerably more problems.

there is no doubt that there are problems in the muslim culture. however, being pissed off at israel, the jewish state, for doing what they've been doing to the palestinians for the past 60+ years, with the West's blessing, has helped to fuel the rage and anger. this rage and anger has created more followers for extremism.

Edited May 12, 2009 by dub

[Oleg Bach]

Isreal is like a dumb blonde that you repeatedly tell is beautiful and smart and devinely untouchable - She believes you but when it comes down to the crunch - she will not survive with out her flattering big brother AMERICA.... Jews should not flee - but stand up like men - but being a man in that culture and others is not permitted.

[jbg]

there is no doubt that there are problems in the muslim culture. however, being pissed off at israel, the jewish state, for doing what they've been doing to the palestinians for the past 60+ years, with the West's blessing, has helped to fuel the rage and anger. this rage and anger has created more followers for extremism.

The Muslims seem to have quite a bit of pent-up anger. They are not the only people who have been aggrieved in history.

A bit of history about the Muslims is in order.

During the pre-Muslim era, the wanton and vicious habits of the desert people of the area from Egypt through Saudi Arabia is well known, and memorialized in the oral history contained in the Bible. The stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, of the binding of Isaac (by negative implication the ritual child sacrifice among neighboring peoples), the purposeless plugging with sand of water wells dug by Abraham and Isaac are but some examples. The wickedness and idolatry prevalant in these areas, along with sexual perversion and violence, existed well before Islam and the fault for them must be laid at the door, not of Islam, but of local "cultures".

Islam's extremely violent start is also well known. Their virtually unhindered spread from the Mecca area to the Atlantic and to the borders of modern India occurred largely at the point of a sword. There were, during those early years, some constructive developments. In many areas, intellectually, they were ahead of Europe, then in the "Dark Ages". They were more tolerant of Jews and Christians than Christians were of Jews and Muslims. At least "dhimmitude" allowed survival, under conditions of degradation and financial servitude.

Their predatory habits on the trade of other peoples is also well-known. One of the great impetuses for the development of shipping was the need to avoid travel through mortally dangerous Muslim lands en route to the Far East. Later, the Barbary Coast pirates and pirates off modern-day Somalia, all Musims, made theft from Europeans (and eventually Americans) and the "white slave" trade an art form. Then as now, it took the Americasns to crack down rather than pay tribute.

Since then, the Barbary Coast Pirates have morphed into OPEC (all of the money benefits the rulers, not the people), the UN, and disaster-milking. Remeber those pitiful faces on ads for charities after the Indonesia tsunami and the Pakistan earthquake? How much rebuilding do you think has really happened? Then as now, there are producers, and there are extorters and takers. After the Holocaust, an undisputed atrocity, its victims picked themselves up, and are now valuable contributors to the world wherever they live.

Did (do) they have cause to be "angry" with the butchers that killed 6,000,000 of them? Where are their suicide bombers? Where are the Americans attacking bazaars in Araby after September 11? Where's the anger of the non-Muslim world against Muslims?

Apparently, the Muslims have problems having Christians who have resided in some areas for thousands of years living in their midst (link to article):

Mideast’s Christians Declining in Influence

By ETHAN BRONNER

JERUSALEM — Christians used to be a vital force in the Middle East. They dominated Lebanon and filled top jobs in the Palestinian movement. In Egypt, they were wealthy beyond their number. In Iraq, they packed the universities and professions. Across the region, their orientation was a vital link to the West, a counterpoint to prevailing trends.

But as Pope Benedict XVI wends his way across the Holy Land this week, he is addressing a dwindling and threatened Christian population driven to emigration by political violence, lack of economic opportunity and the rise of radical Islam. A region that a century ago was 20 percent Christian is about 5 percent today and dropping.

Since it was here that Jesus walked and Christianity was born, the papal visit highlights a prospect many consider deeply troubling for the globe’s largest faith, adhered to by a third of humanity — its most powerful and historic shrines could become museum relics with no connection to those who live among them.

“I fear the extinction of Christianity in Iraq and the Middle East,” the Rev. Jean Benjamin Sleiman, the Catholic archbishop of Baghdad, said in a comment echoed across the region.

So, is it only what Israel has "been doing to the palestinians for the past 60+ years"? Or do they have trouble being neighbors with anyone?

Edited May 13, 2009 by jbg

[bush_cheney2004]

there is no doubt that there are problems in the muslim culture. however, being pissed off at israel, the jewish state, for doing what they've been doing to the palestinians for the past 60+ years, with the West's blessing, has helped to fuel the rage and anger. this rage and anger has created more followers for extremism.

It is uncertain to me how any resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict will mitigate the deep rooted social and economic malaise in some "muslim cultures". In the end, the extremists are only raging against their own wretchedness.

[DogOnPorch]

The Israelis let the Christians of Gaza come visit the Pope in Bethlehem...there was 100 of them!

[jbg]

The Israelis let the Christians of Gaza come visit the Pope in Bethlehem...there was 100 of them!

The other ones were convinced by education of the intellectual arguments in favor of Islam, which is the reason for my deep, abiding respect for radical Arab Muslims.