Jews fleeing France again

[JB Globe]

Didn't the Star of all organizations, once send people into Mosques who could understand Arabic and report that the imams in a number of Toronto mosques were preaching hatred? I think it was Irshad Manji who also reported that, growing up, attending a Muslim school in BC, she was constantly exposed to anti-semitic messages from her teachers.

Like I said, I know anti-semitism exists in the Muslim community somewhere, however I am as concerned about it as I am the Islamophobia which is present in certain places within the Jewish community. It needs to be dealt with, but the chicken-little approach you and others have taken is simply not logical given the small scope of the problem (based on the available evidence). Overreacting to a small problem I believe will whip up baseless xenophobia, which will cause this handful of small mosques to become even more insular, and thus their views will become even hardened and the problem will become even worse.

That's the issue for me here: what works best at alleviating stereotyping and discrimination between communities? In my experiences it's been communication and education: inter-faith dialogue, moderated forums, inter-faith youth groups, rational discussion, etc. What exactly are you suggesting be done?

If you were more rational about these issues, you might actually find that more people would get on board, but portraying the case of one immigrant Imam at one small mosque as the standard to which all Imams and mosques across Canada should be judged is classic prejudice. You would not accept someone else trying to generalize the entire Jewish community because of what is being taught at a Hillel Day School, so don't expect folks to accept the same tactic when applied to other communities. I think you'd benefit by being more consistent with your standards of logic no matter who the subject happens to be.

[DogOnPorch]

But I digress, my point originally for this thread was: I'm sure anti-semitism exists in the Muslim Canadian community like it does in every community in Canada, but I don't believe it is a major problem and is only higher than average because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and not some inherent anti-semitism within Islam.

So there's nothing in the Koran, Sunnah or the Hadiths re: Jews?

[JB Globe]

So there's nothing in the Koran, Sunnah or the Hadiths re: Jews?

To repeat myself, Islam is no more inherently anti-semitic than any other religion. The only reason the level of anti-semitism is higher in the Muslim community CURRENTLY is because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and of course the tensions from that conflict cut both ways, leading to increased Islamophobia in the Jewish community.

[DogOnPorch]

To repeat myself, Islam is no more inherently anti-semitic than any other religion. The only reason the level of anti-semitism is higher in the Muslim community CURRENTLY is because of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and of course the tensions from that conflict cut both ways, leading to increased Islamophobia in the Jewish community.

Seeing there was no Islam at the time of the Bible/Torah, it is impossible for there to be inflamatory texts re: Muslims in the Bible/Torah. The reverse isn't true as I'm sure you're aware.

Since you claim that all this is caused by the Arab-Israeli conflict...how come there were pogroms in the Levant well before Israel ever came into being?

[Argus]

I would reply with a quote I remember from a senior Palestinian leader in Thomas Friedman's Pulitzer-Prize winning "From Beruit to Jerusalem" from before the first Intifada - "Palestinians may not be the most brutalized people in the Middle East, but they certainly are the most humiliated."

I would suggest their "humiliation" is selective. From what I've seen and heard the place was a miserable pest hole prior to the Israelis taking control. For many years thereafter it saw a huge surge in the improvement of its economy, health care and literacy levels up until the Intifada, which carried them well over their compatriates in the rest of the Arab world - other than the oil sheiks, of course.

Of course, post-intifada the noose was tightened, and I don't think there's much separating Palestinians in general in terms of quality of life, economic, and political freedoms from the rest of the Arab world. In fact, it's worse in some cases, for example: I'm at a loss at how you can state that "the Muslims in question are no more or less oppressed than Muslims in most other countries" when we've been watching what's been going on in Gaza for the last several years. It essentially functions as a prison, after all.

The Israelis have yet to kill anywhere near as many Palestinians in all the years of the Intifada as the Syrians killed in one week in the city of Hama when the Muslim brotherhood revolted. Yes, we've 'seen' what's going on in Palestine. We never do see the day to day brutality and oppression in Syria, Lybia, Iran, etc. But it exists, nonetheless. Aside from the restrictions imposed due to the Intifada, in what way are the Palestinians any less free than their counterparts in Syria now, or Iraq prior to the war?

I would suggest that if a similar level of protest to the Intifada were tried anywhere in the Arab world, the government would respond with tanks and machinegunfire until all the protestors were dead, then round up their families for good measure. By the time the international media heard about it anyone likely to be out protesting in the streets would already be dead or know better. The reason the Intifada continues against the Israelis is because they aren't as brutal as an Arab government would have been in supressing it.

[Argus]

Like I said, I know anti-semitism exists in the Muslim community somewhere, however I am as concerned about it as I am the Islamophobia which is present in certain places within the Jewish community. It needs to be dealt with, but the chicken-little approach you and others have taken is simply not logical given the small scope of the problem (based on the available evidence).

I don't beleve any Jews have tried blowing up a mosque yet. We know there have already been several attacks on Jewish centres/schools by Muslims, and we know there are some Muslims in prison in TO charged with planning terrorist activities. People know that Ahmed Ressam was arrested while trying to cross into the US with hopes of bombing LAX, but they tend to forget that prior to that he seriously considered using a gasoline tanker truck to wipe out a Jewish school in Montreal.

If you were more rational about these issues, you might actually find that more people would get on board, but portraying the case of one immigrant Imam at one small mosque as the standard to which all Imams and mosques across Canada should be judged is classic prejudice.

I'm not doing any such thing. I'm suggesting that there are problems within the Muslim community based on repeated statements by its leaders - its clerics, and its supposed representatives, based on surveys which have shown the majority of Canadian Muslims want to see Sharia law introduced into Canada, at least for family law, and based on arrests like those in Toronto and accounts like Manjis.

I'm suggesting we need to do a considerably better job at integrating these people into the greater community, into encouraging, if not in fact, forcing them into learning the language, and that we need to do a much better job at filtering out Islamists from among the immigrants we accept into Canada every year. I do not like the fact that Saudi Wahabi money is allowed to flow into Canada to build mosques and community centres (which then take on a Wahabi tone), and that such generosity be rejected by law. Can you imagine how the Saudis would react if we gave money to establish Christian churches in their country? Hell, they don't even allow churches in their country.

[tango]

I don't beleve any Jews have tried blowing up a mosque yet. We know there have already been several attacks on Jewish centres/schools by Muslims, and we know there are some Muslims in prison in TO charged with planning terrorist activities. People know that Ahmed Ressam was arrested while trying to cross into the US with hopes of bombing LAX, but they tend to forget that prior to that he seriously considered using a gasoline tanker truck to wipe out a Jewish school in Montreal.

Pretty pathetic complaints about a few individuals, hardly justify ... forcing [all Muslims] into learning the language,

That's ridiculous. This is Canada.

Edited April 15, 2009 by tango

[DogOnPorch]

Pretty pathetic complaints about a few individuals, hardly justify ... forcing [all Muslims] into learning the language,

That's ridiculous. This is Canada.

My US military chums refer to Canada as Canuckistan for a reason.

[Argus]

Pretty pathetic complaints about a few individuals, hardly justify ... forcing [all Muslims] into learning the language,

That's ridiculous. This is Canada.

You can't integrate if you can't understand what people are saying. If you don't know the language you can do nothing but live on welfare or work in an ethnic gheto. You won't feel a part of a place. You'll be an outsider, forever and you're primary identification and loyalty will be with your home country and its people, not Canada.

I think, given the numbers of those who want to come to Canada, we could impose this requirement and not allow anyone off the plane or boat unless they pass a language test.

[dub]

You can't integrate if you can't understand what people are saying. If you don't know the language you can do nothing but live on welfare or work in an ethnic gheto. You won't feel a part of a place. You'll be an outsider, forever and you're primary identification and loyalty will be with your home country and its people, not Canada.

I think, given the numbers of those who want to come to Canada, we could impose this requirement and not allow anyone off the plane or boat unless they pass a language test.

skilled workers which make up over 3/4 of immigrants coming to canada cannot qualify unless they have at least a university degree and have written an IELTS exam to prove their english abilities.

i'm quite certain that majority of those who immigrate to canada are more qualified than you are.

[dub]

why is it okay for jews to use jewish law in canada and not okay for some muslims to use sharia law?

Edited April 16, 2009 by dub

[M.Dancer]

why is it okay for jews to use jewish law in canada and not okay for some muslims to use sharia law?

It's not and they don't.

Come back when you know what you're babbling about.

[DogOnPorch]

why is it okay for jews to use jewish law in canada and not okay for some muslims to use sharia law?

Provide some examples for us to ponder.

Thanks.

[bush_cheney2004]

Provide some examples for us to ponder.

Thanks.

Yea..what is Jewish Law in Canada? Hebrew National hot dogs?

[dub]

Provide some examples for us to ponder.

Thanks.

okay.

The Beth Din, or Beit Din, is the Rabbinical Court that has been the basis of Jewish law and living throughout history and around the globe. Procedures and decisions based on the Torah, Talmud, and the great body of Halachic law are the guarantee of continued Jewish communal life.

The Rabbinical Court of California and the West Coast, headed by HaRav Gavriel Cohen is authorized to handle all matters of Jewish religious law, and is designated by the State of Israel to serve the western United States, Canada, Mexico and the Far East in matters of Halacha (Jewish law).

do these muslims want a set up something different than the above?

do they want to force their laws onto the non-muslims?

as far as i've read - no.

Edited April 16, 2009 by dub

[DogOnPorch]

okay.

do these muslims want a set up different than the above?

Dunno. Do the Jews stone adulterers?

[bush_cheney2004]

do these muslims want a set up different than the above?

Yes....advocates of Sharia Law in Canada want jurisdiction over matters of public law, not just religious law.

[M.Dancer]

okay.

do these muslims want a set up something different than the above?

do they want to force their laws onto the non-muslims?

as far as i've read - no.

When did California join Canada?

[dub]

Yes....advocates of Sharia Law in Canada want jurisdiction over matters of public law, not just religious law.

not any different what the jews do.

[bush_cheney2004]

not any different what the jews do.

Nope....does not have standing unless approved by a public court settlement, particularly in civil matters.

Try again.....

[dub]

Dunno. Do the Jews stone adulterers?

this is why you are ridiculous. it is comments like that.

you're not here to have a debate.

you think anyone is advocating that in canada?

[M.Dancer]

not any different what the jews do.

1998.....

Jewish Family courts have not been valid in ontario since at least 2005

[dub]

Nope....does not have standing unless approved by a public court settlement, particularly in civil matters.

Try again.....

the cases on that page were approved by a public court.

what's your point here? you don't think the same process would be applied to sharia courts?

you guys are howling and crying about something that is already practiced by another religion.

[dub]

lets go to the UK for a second:

Religious courts already in use

The Archbishop of Canterbury has caused a furore with his comment that it "seems unavoidable" that parts of Islamic Sharia law will be adopted in the UK.

For many non-Muslims, the idea of a religious court holding power over British citizens seems totally alien to our mainly-secular culture.

But not to all non-Muslims. It has often been remarked on how similar Muslims and Jews are in many of their traditions, such as food laws, burial rites and language, and this case could prove no exception. Jewish courts are in daily use in Britain, and have been for centuries.

British Jews, particularly the orthodox, will frequently turn to their own religious courts, the Beth Din, to resolve civil disputes, covering issues as diverse as business and divorce.

why are people getting all hysterical about sharia law being used in the same matter?

[bush_cheney2004]

the cases on that page were approved by a public court.

what's your point here? you don't think the same process would be applied to sharia courts?

you guys are howling and crying about something that is already practiced by another religion.

That's not how "Sharia Law" works in a Muslim theocracy....public court adjudication in California or Ontario makes it just another civil matter.