Muslims in Canada want Sharia Law!

Chris in KW · February 13, 2009

and a massive, world-wide movement of tens of millions of Islamic fundamentalism which wants to slaughter, burn and murder anyone in its path.

This kind of gross generalization doesn't lend much credibility to your argument.

Argus · February 13, 2009

This kind of gross generalization doesn't lend much credibility to your argument.

That you think it's a gross generalization merely indicates your lack of familiarity with the subject at hand.

WIP · February 13, 2009

I can easily see the difference between a small, unimportant group which urges men to become the heads of households, and a massive, world-wide movement of tens of millions of Islamic fundamentalism which wants to slaughter, burn and murder anyone in its path.

Little movements have a habit of growing big if conditions are ripe for growth. In the U.S. Forty years ago, the Religious Right was a joke, but years of tireless effort of brainwashing church members that they lived in a "Christian nation", they made the Republican Party the natural governing political party for the first time since 1933. They elected a president who carried out their agenda, and hopefully enough of the rank and file religious right have woken up to the fact that their church leaders have been calling on them to support political leaders who have been working directly against the economic interests of everyone who is not a member of the rich and the super-rich classes of people.

They combined the concept of casting votes based on "faith issues" with selling the dream that everyone can become a multimillionaire if they are capable self-starters and work hard to achieve their dream. This is why John McCain trotted out "Joe the Plumber" over and over again in the Fall Election. Joe The Plumber became the mascot of the Republican super-rich because their most influential leader - Rush Limbaugh, brags almost daily about how much it costs to maintain his own corporate jet (EIB One) -- and only the most delusional dittoheads believe that they will buy a mansion some day in Limbaugh's exclusive Palm Beach gated community, or play a round of golf with him at his country club. Joe the unlicensed plumber's dreams, at least seemed achievable at first glance.

Now that the economy is tanking from the debtload, even the most hopeful and optimistic Republicans, who are watching their own little businesses go bankrupt, realize that they aren't going to have a future of flying around in their very own jet, like Limbaugh.....so, you may have a point there that the Religious Right in the U.S. and Canada has reached its peak, and won't be able to wield the authority that their Muslim counterparts do over their believers.

It isn't Christians who are stabbing and murdering writers and filmmakers and politicians and schoolgirls across the globe, and the attempts by you and the other extremist leftists here to excuse Muslim fundamentalism by continually inventing some kind of menace from Christians is more than slightly pathetic.

If your village in the hills of Afghanistan or Pakistan is destroyed by remotely guided missiles because Al Qaeda, or suspected Al Qaeda gunmen pass through frequently, would you consider it a terrorist attack or collateral damage?

WIP · February 13, 2009

There is no drug war in Canada. If, for no other reason, the justice system directs the police by giving little or no sentence for drug dealers and grow-op owners. The police generally do not waste resources on cases that they know the courts will dismiss, or give probation to.

You must be living on top of a mountain or something! Either that or constant news stories about crackhouses and grow-ops being busted here in Hamilton is an anomaly, and we are alone in experiencing drug-related crimes and the periodic efforts of law enforcement to shut some of them down.

Anyway, I see the point you are trying to make with Canada and Afghanistan. I disagree with you since Muslims have been making war since the beginning of time. Treating the latest symptom, Afghanistan or Iraq, will not make it stop.

No, actually the terrorism, Islamic fundamentalism and associated headaches are a relatively modern phenomena that have been exacerbated by giving the oil sheikdoms in the Persian Gulf and Arabian Peninsula billions and billions of our dollars so that they can attempt to buy their way into the Islamic heaven after a life of gluttony and debauchery by giving large, generous donations to their religious authorities for the propagation of the most conservative voices in their religion. There were no burqas and sharia courts in Pakistan and Afghanistan until Saudi-funded madrassahs replaced the fledgling public education systems. They offered to educate children for free, as long as it included their religious education.....the rest is history.

Even thirty or forty years ago, the Islamists were seen as a relic of the past in most of the Muslim World. Another factor that turned the tide from secularism to Islamism, was that most secularists were either Marxist or Marxist-friendly in their political philosophies. The Soviets backed Gamel Nasser, and the Baath parties in Syria and Iraq, and the U.S. countered by supporting Saudi Arabia and the Islamic theocrats who were identifed as the only opposition to Communism........the way events have played out in the MiddleEast, we would have been better off dealing with the communists!

Michael Hardner · February 13, 2009

WIP

Little movements have a habit of growing big if conditions are ripe for growth. In the U.S. Forty years ago, the Religious Right was a joke, but years of tireless effort of brainwashing church members that they lived in a "Christian nation", they made the Republican Party the natural governing political party for the first time since 1933. They elected a president who carried out their agenda, and hopefully enough of the rank and file religious right have woken up to the fact that their church leaders have been calling on them to support political leaders who have been working directly against the economic interests of everyone who is not a member of the rich and the super-rich classes of people.
They combined the concept of casting votes based on "faith issues" with selling the dream that everyone can become a multimillionaire if they are capable self-starters and work hard to achieve their dream. This is why John McCain trotted out "Joe the Plumber" over and over again in the Fall Election. Joe The Plumber became the mascot of the Republican super-rich because their most influential leader - Rush Limbaugh, brags almost daily about how much it costs to maintain his own corporate jet (EIB One) -- and only the most delusional dittoheads believe that they will buy a mansion some day in Limbaugh's exclusive Palm Beach gated community, or play a round of golf with him at his country club. Joe the unlicensed plumber's dreams, at least seemed achievable at first glance.

Now that the economy is tanking from the debtload, even the most hopeful and optimistic Republicans, who are watching their own little businesses go bankrupt, realize that they aren't going to have a future of flying around in their very own jet, like Limbaugh.....so, you may have a point there that the Religious Right in the U.S. and Canada has reached its peak, and won't be able to wield the authority that their Muslim counterparts do over their believers.

Are you seriously trying to say the Republicans are like Al Quaida ?

scorpio · February 13, 2009

There is no drug war in Canada.

Been to Calgary lately? <_<

bush_cheney2004 · February 13, 2009

Umm..no, Crime is down .

Christ man....that sure was easy.

More Canadians as a percentage own homes than ever before......should have seen Canada in the 50s....3 families sharing a flat wasn't uncommon.

...you're on a roll! :lol:

sharkman · February 13, 2009

You must be living on top of a mountain or something! Either that or constant news stories about crackhouses and grow-ops being busted here in Hamilton is an anomaly, and we are alone in experiencing drug-related crimes and the periodic efforts of law enforcement to shut some of them down.
No, actually the terrorism, Islamic fundamentalism and associated headaches are a relatively modern phenomena that have been exacerbated by giving the oil sheikdoms in the Persian Gulf and Arabian Peninsula billions and billions of our dollars so that they can attempt to buy their way into the Islamic heaven after a life of gluttony and debauchery by giving large, generous donations to their religious authorities for the propagation of the most conservative voices in their religion. There were no burqas and sharia courts in Pakistan and Afghanistan until Saudi-funded madrassahs replaced the fledgling public education systems. They offered to educate children for free, as long as it included their religious education.....the rest is history.

Speaking of living on top of a mountain, have you heard about the Hashshashin, or the fortress of Alamut? Part of the fascinating history that is Islam, and including the use of terror to attain goals. They didn't have bombs, but they did pretty good. I would say that the notion that terrorism is a newfangled thing would be incomplete. The idea that events in this century have some how caused the terrorist philosophy doesn't take a long look at history. There is nothing new under the sun.

And what you describe WRT the drug/grow op culture is happening across Canada. It is not a war. The war occurs between criminal organizations and gangs who fight over turf and product. I repeat, the judges release the drug dealers and grow operators all of the time. The public pays the price for this. Perhaps you define war differently than I and connect the idea to Reagan's just say no to drugs war. In Canada, we want to legalize drugs, not put the criminals away.

I think I'll bow out of this thread at this point. I find there is little use in debating.

Oleg Bach · February 14, 2009

I am sure that once Muslims viewed our judical system they must have though " wow - it's sneaking and corrupt and a monoply - we might as well get into the action and provide some better product ---give it time - they will own our religious base - and our judical one --- because we are weak and they are strong - crooked breaks and straight survives...so let them have their Banshee law - sorry Diareeah Shareeeea! Yah ...then we can stone a few and lop off some hand from those...

kimmy · February 14, 2009

I am sure that once Muslims viewed our judical system they must have though " wow - it's sneaking and corrupt and a monoply - we might as well get into the action and provide some better product

How stupid would someone who grew up in Canada have to be to believe that Sharia is "a better product"?

The only Canadian dumb enough to think that is ... well, it's you, Oleg!

---give it time - they will own our religious base - and our judical one --- because we are weak and they are strong - crooked breaks and straight survives...

If you buy into the idea that ignorance, inflexibility, dogmatism, and cowardice makes you strong, then sure, I suppose the Muslim fundamentalists are strong.

Personally, I think those qualities make you a turd, not strong.

so let them have their Banshee law - sorry Diareeah Shareeeea! Yah ...then we can stone a few and lop off some hand from those...

It sounds like AfMANistan is the place you want to be!

-k

Oleg Bach · February 14, 2009

How stupid would someone who grew up in Canada have to be to believe that Sharia is "a better product"?
The only Canadian dumb enough to think that is ... well, it's you, Oleg!

If you buy into the idea that ignorance, inflexibility, dogmatism, and cowardice makes you strong, then sure, I suppose the Muslim fundamentalists are strong.

Personally, I think those qualities make you a turd, not strong.

It sounds like AfMANistan is the place you want to be!

-k

Belly laugh. Thanks. I know we have better product than those manish Muslims.. and yes dogmatism makes you weak...and I understand that fundamentalism is just that - very fundamental and childlike...a con...apparently you do not get my dark humor or amusingly provocative mishief I practice.....and what is with this Af Man istan stuff? You have a problem with the opposite sex - or are you a male who has a difficulty? Come on - I am just kidding.... Point being - even if our law is not up to par it is far more civil and humane then Sharia ever could be. STILL it stinks - and please don't do the out of date feminist af man istan bit again ----- it shows a person of underdeveloped human nature and wisdom.

WIP · February 14, 2009

WIP
Are you seriously trying to say the Republicans are like Al Quaida ?

Did I say that?

To be honest, the toxic stew they've blended together (and some conservatives up here are trying to emulate) by mixing religion, nationalism and I would say even racial purity by some Republicans who are panicked that America may not be a white majority nation in 30 years, are all the ingredients needed to create an authoritarian fascist movement.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

WIP · February 14, 2009

Speaking of living on top of a mountain, have you heard about the Hashshashin, or the fortress of Alamut? Part of the fascinating history that is Islam, and including the use of terror to attain goals. They didn't have bombs, but they did pretty good. I would say that the notion that terrorism is a newfangled thing would be incomplete.

I didn't say terrorism was new, but suicide attacks and suicide bombers are a new phenomena, and actually got going first in the Sri Lankan Civil War. The point I was making, was that the Muslim World had been in a state of decline, and there were many reform movements based on western, secular models, that wanted to strip the mosques and their clerics of political and judicial authority. And then, once the oil dollars started flowing in.....................

Anyway, the Assassins of the 11th and 12th Centuries came from the breakaway Islamic sect in Persia called Ismailism. The Hashshashin came from the Nizari branch of Ismaili Shiism; so they were in effect, a splinter group within a splinter group. For what it's worth, they didn't represent the mainstream of Islamic practices during their time, so what significance do they have today? Not that their enemies were any more benevolent or merciful! They were trying to survive during harsh and brutal times, and the Islamic Caliphate was becoming even less tolerant of heretical sects, much like the Catholic Church in Europe had done to purge heresy. So they developed a strategy of asymmetrical warfare that enabled them to survive for two centuries while being surrounded by enemies; can't fault them for that!

What it all boils down to is that the MiddleEast policy established by George Bush, and supported by conservatives in this country, is an incoherent mess! If Islam is a special case among religions -- being particularly evil and dysfunctional, and represents a threat to Western Civilization, then why are we financing them through oil purchases and allegedly trying to bring "democracy" to Iraq and Afghanistan? The two arguments don't fit together.

And what you describe WRT the drug/grow op culture is happening across Canada. It is not a war. The war occurs between criminal organizations and gangs who fight over turf and product. I repeat, the judges release the drug dealers and grow operators all of the time. The public pays the price for this. Perhaps you define war differently than I and connect the idea to Reagan's just say no to drugs war. In Canada, we want to legalize drugs, not put the criminals away.

Just like Mexico, as long as the U.S. is waging a war on drugs, we have little freedom to stray too far from U.S. drug policy.

kimmy · February 14, 2009

Belly laugh. Thanks. I know we have better product than those manish Muslims.. and yes dogmatism makes you weak...and I understand that fundamentalism is just that - very fundamental and childlike...a con...apparently you do not get my dark humor or amusingly provocative mishief I practice.....and what is with this Af Man istan stuff? You have a problem with the opposite sex - or are you a male who has a difficulty? Come on - I am just kidding....

It's hard to tell, Oleg. Your enthusiasm for the manly lifestyle of these cave-dwelling dorks seems pretty sincere sometimes, and your contempt for the "social engineers" and the feminists and the outrage at the "stealing of balls" away from Canadian men seems pretty genuine. You're sure you're kidding?

Point being - even if our law is not up to par it is far more civil and humane then Sharia ever could be. STILL it stinks -

To paraphrase Winston Churchill, our system is the worst there is, except for all the others.

and please don't do the out of date feminist af man istan bit again ----- it shows a person of underdeveloped human nature and wisdom.

I'm entirely human, and way too lacking in wisdom.

-k

bush_cheney2004 · February 14, 2009

.... I would say even racial purity by some Republicans who are panicked that America may not be a white majority nation in 30 years, are all the ingredients needed to create an authoritarian fascist movement.
"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

ROTFLMAO! This coming from a nation with language "purity" embedded in federal and provincial law constitution. :lol:

Edited February 14, 2009 by bush_cheney2004

Oleg Bach · February 14, 2009

ROTFLMAO! This coming from a nation with language "purity" embedded in federal and provincial law constitution.

No human being is pure..we are all a mix - and those that are not are called inbred.. :lol: We see lots of those types holding on for dear life and sending surrogate mixed menu presidents forth to do their bidding because they are to stupid to be creative...so the stick to one rule to maintain their pure economic one sided state...steal lie and frighten the populace into stupidity.. I have waged my own war on terror...I have no respect for those that use that old fashioned by the book approach to rule - fear...need I mention any names?

bush_cheney2004 · February 14, 2009

....I have no respect for those that use that old fashioned by the book approach to rule - fear...need I mention any names?

Nope.....but show me a man without any fears and I will show you a fool.

Oleg Bach · February 14, 2009

Nope.....but show me a man without any fears and I will show you a fool.

It is a fool who has himself as his own client --- as Gomez in the Munsters said....I am that fool. Bushy boy...your whole life and the maturing process it to master evil - once you understand it you no longer have fears - concerns perhaps but not paralzing fear....but I did watch a technical explaination on the old torture mechinism of the cross ------ those were real nasty bastards who invented that - as long as they do not torture - I am fearless - they don't torture anymore...do they.. :rolleyes: well do they? ooooh - and I don't want to hear about water boarding --- all I see is some sort of exotic surfing...wishful thinking is helpful -- but YES --- they will take you to the dungeon and put an iron bar across your head and up your ----- foolishness.. Damn - you would think that the world has evolved ---nothing has changed in 2000 years...oh well - just keep your head low...

bush_cheney2004 · February 14, 2009

..... Damn - you would think that the world has evolved ---nothing has changed in 2000 years...oh well - just keep your head low...

If it was good enough for the Old Testament, it is good enough for Dick Cheney! :lol:

sharkman · February 14, 2009

I didn't say terrorism was new, but suicide attacks and suicide bombers are a new phenomena, and actually got going first in the Sri Lankan Civil War. The point I was making, was that the Muslim World had been in a state of decline, and there were many reform movements based on western, secular models, that wanted to strip the mosques and their clerics of political and judicial authority. And then, once the oil dollars started flowing in.....................
Anyway, the Assassins of the 11th and 12th Centuries came from the breakaway Islamic sect in Persia called Ismailism. The Hashshashin came from the Nizari branch of Ismaili Shiism; so they were in effect, a splinter group within a splinter group. For what it's worth, they didn't represent the mainstream of Islamic practices during their time, so what significance do they have today? Not that their enemies were any more benevolent or merciful! They were trying to survive during harsh and brutal times, and the Islamic Caliphate was becoming even less tolerant of heretical sects, much like the Catholic Church in Europe had done to purge heresy. So they developed a strategy of asymmetrical warfare that enabled them to survive for two centuries while being surrounded by enemies; can't fault them for that!

What it all boils down to is that the MiddleEast policy established by George Bush, and supported by conservatives in this country, is an incoherent mess! If Islam is a special case among religions -- being particularly evil and dysfunctional, and represents a threat to Western Civilization, then why are we financing them through oil purchases and allegedly trying to bring "democracy" to Iraq and Afghanistan? The two arguments don't fit together.

Just like Mexico, as long as the U.S. is waging a war on drugs, we have little freedom to stray too far from U.S. drug policy.

Okay, one more post on this thread...

You are now moving the goal posts, something people who argue for argument's sake do all of the time. Personally, I think it comes from the type of person who believes they are never wrong, so of course they can't be wrong now, it simply must be something else.

Here we go(says WIP), I didn't say terrorism was new, I said the suicide bombing was new!(Look at your post, you said terrorism.)

Thanks, but you don't need to give me a lesson on the various sects and splinter groups, I read it as well before I posted. It's quite similar to the situation today in Islam, and it's the same poisonous fervor that the Hashshashin had, except now the weaponry is more sophisticated. Nothing is new under the sun.

Never mind me. You are completely right(of course) and I never should have challanged you on it, please forgive me. That devil Bush has ruined a paradise filled world with his evil schemes, but now Obama will save the day.

Edited February 14, 2009 by sharkman

Oleg Bach · February 14, 2009

I wonder if you created a scale of fear - who generated the most to the most people......The terrorists --- or the Bushites? Per capita I would safely assume that Bushes' war on terror had the effect of frightening more people than the actual terrorists. His program became a reason for being for an administration that had no purpose or useful vision to America. Imagine what America would have been like without the Bush effect. Probably real boring and if it was not for terror --- the economy would have collapsed sooner...seeing they would have waged more mischief in the board room with all that free time....Terrorism ....ha! Wonder why the terrorist hate America - America has done everything to benefit the whole world and are very very kind to everybody - so what's with the terrorist - are they crazy????? Or are the Americans nuts and to proud to understand that fact.

WIP · February 14, 2009

Okay, one more post on this thread...
You are now moving the goal posts, something people who argue for argument's sake do all of the time. Personally, I think it comes from the type of person who believes they are never wrong, so of course they can't be wrong now, it simply must be something else.

Here we go(says WIP), I didn't say terrorism was new, I said the suicide bombing was new!(Look at your post, you said terrorism.)

Thanks, but you don't need to give me a lesson on the various sects and splinter groups, I read it as well before I posted. It's quite similar to the situation today in Islam, and it's the same poisonous fervor that the Hashshashin had, except now the weaponry is more sophisticated. Nothing is new under the sun.

There are two different views of the threat of Islamic extremism (referring to people who do consider it a threat to begin with)

1. secularists, representing nonbelievers and religious people who do not want any religion in public policy

2. Christians and a few Jews, who want an emphasis put on "Judeochristian principles" and many who want outright Christian government.

The Christian fundamentalists want all of our attention focused outward at the dangers of Islam, and keep telling us that their religion is different, and can in no way become a harmful force that supports fascism.

Secularists know better than to just take their word on it, and see much of their strategy as an attempt to destroy secularism on the homefront, since they continually attack science, public education and humanism.

So, when you join this debate with the contention that we shouldn't be comparing Muslim extremists with what you claim is a tiny minority of extremists on the Christian side, you also identified yourself as a supporter of standard neoconservative wisdom that we should be part of the war in Afghanistan. This strategy has never been logical right from the beginning, but it was sold along with the Iraq War through fear of terrorism, and somehow encouraging the "moderate Muslims." Does this make any sense coming from people who contend that there is no such thing as a moderate version of Islam, and that this religion will always be at war with the West?

When it comes to our fundie extremists, I want to know why these groups have such powerful and wealthy backers to advance their propaganda, and why they are never criticized within the wider conservative movement. I recall about ten years ago, when Operation Rescue was still a headline grabber, that Rush Limbaugh was comparing them to black, civil rights demonstrators of the 60's, and asked why conservatives should condemn their harassment of abortion clinic staff and clients.

As for the Assassins -- if you already knew the history (and it's alot more complex than what I tried to briefly outline) why did you offer them up as a proof that terrorism is an intrinsic part of the Muslim religion? If we want to go back in history to look for examples of terrorism, we can trace this type of asymmetrical warfare back at least as far as 2000 years ago, before the Jewish Rebellion against Rome. A small Jewish sect known as the Zealots, was getting impatient waiting and waiting for the Messiah to arrive and liberate God's people from Roman occupation; so they started a campaign of targeted assassinations of Roman soldiers and government officials -- and the name Zealot, would live on as a reference for any fanatical believer who is willing to do anything for the cause. There is nothing to indicate that terrorism is an exclusive Muslim phenomena; on the contrary, any fanatical group that argues that their cause is so important, that any and all means of warfare can be used, will turn to terrorism.

sharkman · February 14, 2009

WIP, you are now using a an argument I never made to show I'm wrong. Surely since I must be wrong you can show me without putting words in my mouth.

As for the Assassins -- if you already knew the history (and it's alot more complex than what I tried to briefly outline) why did you offer them up as a proof that terrorism is an intrinsic part of the Muslim religion? If we want to go back in history to look for examples of terrorism, we can trace this type of asymmetrical warfare back at least as far as 2000 years ago, before the Jewish Rebellion against Rome.

I never said that terrorism is an intrinsic part of the Muslim faith. Neither did I say that terrorism is exclusive to the Muslim faith. You must be enjoying yourself.

GostHacked · February 17, 2009

I wonder if you created a scale of fear - who generated the most to the most people......The terrorists --- or the Bushites? Per capita I would safely assume that Bushes' war on terror had the effect of frightening more people than the actual terrorists. His program became a reason for being for an administration that had no purpose or useful vision to America.

This is something I had mentioned quite a few times in a few threads. Terrorism is the threat of an attack, not the attack itself. You create the problem, so people think you are awesome when you solve the issue. Create the problem so you can sell them the cure.

I know many don't, but I really love your posting style.

Again I will point out, if Sharia Law comes to Canada, you can blame our government for allowing it. Don't blame the Muslims for not integrating enough, blame our politicians and immigration for not getting them to leave the baggage behind before coming to Canada.

We have only our government to blame if Sharia Law is established in Canada.