'I was still holding my grandson's hand - the rest was gone&#3

[DogOnPorch]

No... What you seem to fail to grasp is that this war was started due to two jets flying into skyscrappers in New York City. Keep in mind that Bush was elected in 2000 based partially on his belief that the US had to have a humble foriegn policy.

Bin Laden is likely in Pakistan, that being said his activities have been greatly diminished since he no longer has a base to operate out of like Afghanistan. To withdraw would simply leave us in the same situation we faced pre-9/11/2001.

Save the tug at the heart strings for another day. I quite frankly don't care if a pipeline is being built in Afghanistan, especially if the extra money that comes from it goes into the Afghan governments coffers.

We're not their as colonial oppressors, once the Afghans have the ability to defend themselves from aggression and have some semblance of stability we'll leave. What you're suggesting is that we leave immediately with absolutely no concern about what'll happen afterwards, and no concern about the possible reprucussions of having a nation where terrorists can operate freely with the sanction of the government.

BTW: Don't attempt to twist the last point by arguing the west are akin to terrorists.

I agree with all you said here. There's also quite a good chance that Osama bin Laden is simply dead and al-Qaeda (et al) are playing a game of "Weekend at Bernie's" with us...hauling out the corpse on occasion to wave and say 'Death to America' and such.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Driving that train, high on cocaine,

Casey jones is ready, watch your speed.

Trouble ahead, trouble behind,

And you know that notion just crossed my mind.

---Grateful Dead

[Oleg Bach]

I agree with all you said here. There's also quite a good chance that Osama bin Laden is simply dead and al-Qaeda (et al) are playing a game of "Weekend at Bernie's" with us...hauling out the corpse on occasion to wave and say 'Death to America' and such.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Driving that train, high on cocaine,

Casey jones is ready, watch your speed.

Trouble ahead, trouble behind,

And you know that notion just crossed my mind.

---Grateful Dead

Or he's at home in his uncles place and never comes out during the day...and maybe he had a leg shortening operation - and now looks like a terrorist dwarf - like the little bald guy in the Austin Powers movie.

[DogOnPorch]

Or he's at home in his uncles place and never comes out during the day...and maybe he had a leg shortening operation - and now looks like a terrorist dwarf - like the little bald guy in the Austin Powers movie.

Well there's the whole Tora Bora thing. They were dropping some VERY heavy ordnance on that area and there was a very excellent chance he was at least gravely wounded there making his kidneys shut down (he needs regular dialysis in the best of times, apparently). Not a formula for a long life...B-52s and bad kidneys.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what's for lunch.

---Orson Welles

[moderateamericain]

OK the sausage insertion was not accurate - how about a Felafel counter person? But really - this story was told to me - I don't believe it's fanciful - and the source seemed credible - what are you saying - that these things never occur and that the west is pure....give me a break.

Its hard for your source to seem credible when you start off talking about sausage vendors in a country that does not eat sausage or any parts of pigs. Thats like opening up a Bar underwater. And im not saying the west is pure. Or have not killed innocents

[Oleg Bach]

Well there's the whole Tora Bora thing. They were dropping some VERY heavy ordnance on that area and there was a very excellent chance he was at least gravely wounded there making his kidneys shut down (he needs regular dialysis in the best of times, apparently). Not a formula for a long life...B-52s and bad kidneys.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what's for lunch.

---Orson Welles

There would have been a report by now of his death - dialysis is only temporary life extension - all die during treatment..just takes time.

[DogOnPorch]

There would have been a report by now of his death - dialysis is only temporary life extension - all die during treatment..just takes time.

Why would there be a report? Bin Laden has much more value as an uncertain figure...Is he dead? Is he alive? Who knows? If there's reports of his death his cult of personality will suffer. He's already a martyr in a sense, afterall. I hear 'Osama' is a very popular name to give to young Muslim males these days.

-----------------------------------------------------

Peas porridge hot, peas porridge cold,

Peas porridge in the pot, nine days old;

Some like it hot, some like it cold,

Some like it in the pot, nine days old.

Edited December 18, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[GostHacked]

1. the soldiers in Afghanistan contrary to what you think did not go there to "WIN"-this concept of winning or losing is your own and what you assume others also believe in-those are your thoughts that you now try project on others;

Well, we are told the war is being won. So our leaders are projecting their own concept of winning/losing on the rest of us.

3. yes I do not doubt you are convinced that Afghanistan will always be a society run by violence and tribes and that will never be changed by "foreigners";

If it hasn't happened yet, then it will never happen. Russia could not do it, and they were right next door. Permanent change comes from within, not without.

4. yes most of us including Canada's fighting soldiers are intelligent enough to know a conventional war is not being fought and so a conventional war ending will never happen;p

Perpetual war is not acceptable.

5. yes most of us are well aware that the interest in Afghanistan is deeply related to securing oil pipelines as well as some people believing by keeping the theatre of confrontation in Afghanistan it diminishes its likelihood of coming to our borders-yes we all know that thank you.

Now tell me Kuzadd when do you stop using oil, gas, and living the lifestyle you do? You planning to move to Kabul and become a fundamentalist Muslim and live by the values of these warlords?

Do you think you live the lifestyle you do in a vacum?....that it just happens?

We had the lifestyle before Afghanistan, so this is a non-starter for debate. Part of the problem is that investment in alternative energies is being wasted on problems like Afghanistan which cannot be fixed from outside. This keeps us on the dependance of fossile fuels.

Excuse me but I have only positive thoughts and wishes for our soldiers. Until I readjust my way of life and you do yours-they do what they do because you live the way you do and take it for granted as a given-that is just comes without anyone sacrificing for it to be.

Before I criticize these soldiers, I have some readjusting of my own lifestyle to take care of.

I don't criticize the troops, but I do question and criticize our leaders in our government and our military.

[White Doors]

Look at what everyone is saying about that Jewish fraudster... "oh my God, how could he have done that to other Jews?!?" Do you think he cared if he was stealing from Jews or gentiles? It's purely about them as an individual.

BC Chick;

The whole problem you have is racism. I didn't even know he was Jewish, yet to you he is the 'Jewish fraudster'.

And I never heard anyone say that...

How does it feel being in the same league as Adolf Hitler anyways?

Edited December 19, 2008 by White Doors

[GostHacked]

Afghanistan's rule of law with the Taliban before the invasion---Sharia Law, based on the Quran.

Afghanistan's rule of law with Karzai's government after the invasion---Sharia Law, based on the Quran.

Sure we 'liberated' them so they could choose the same system of law that they had before.

I am not sure how this is progress, or even how progress can be measured at all.

I know it is not much to most but Karzai was a board member for the oil group UNOCAL.

Looks like he also supported the Taliban and even wants to negotiate with them.

Looks like he also told the US 'NO' in regards to eliminating the poppy fields citing econimics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Karzai

[BC_chick]

BC Chick;

The whole problem you have is racism. I didn't even know he was Jewish, yet to you he is the 'Jewish fraudster'.

And I never heard anyone say that...

How does it feel being in the same league as Adolf Hitler anyways?

Blame CNN, I was quoting Anderson Cooper, apparently a lot of Jews think like Canadian Blue where they're bewildered how anyone could put their immoral greed ahead of what is good for the collective group to which they belong.

Here is what I said in its proper context:

Canadian Blue, what you seem to fail to grasp, is that powerful men (and women) who mastermind these types of wars (which are not uncommon throughout human history - it so happens that it's the one going on in our lifetime), do not think in 'we'.... they think in 'I'...

Look at what everyone is saying about that Jewish fraudster... "oh my God, how could he have done that to other Jews?!?" Do you think he cared if he was stealing from Jews or gentiles? It's purely about them as an individual.

Yes, the guy was the top story of the day when I posted that. I referred to him as an *example* of a shyster who does not think in 'we' but 'I'

Hitler would more likely turn the story into "All Jews are shysters and like that banker"... but whatever. I don't really lose sleep over what you have to say.

Reading comprehension is evidently not your strong suit, you seem to fly off the handle with the mere mention of the word Jewish.

[Rue]

Rue:

I skimmed through what you wrote,

which boils down to.....

the west went there to do good, like the "do gooders' we like to think we are.

freedom, woman's rights,

were not quitters, we get the job done, rah rah...

and of course a number of rude assumptions.. par for the course with yourself.

I don't quite know where you got off on this rant of being critical of soldiers but, whatever floats your boat.

I'll quote Eric Margolis here

or this

the soldiers are committed to a pipeline.... this is not a do gooder mission in any way shape or form.

invasion and occupation were not necessary, unless the goal was domination and control.

Which it was.

(and you at least acknowledge)

I guess it is a coincidence the canadia soldiers are in Kandahar, on the pipelines route?

Rebuilding for the pipeline I guess, but not for the people.

Which makes a do-gooder ideal nonsense.

That's the problem Kuzadd you don't read what other people write you "skim", i.e., you don't read it at all.

In fact not only did you not read what I wrote, but you now attempt to tell me what I meant.

Kind of silly don't you think telling me what I meant and not even reading it?

What I said was you are mixing up the role of the soldiers and why they are there with your own political views which you then project on them and assume is what they think and what motivates them.

That is why I said don't presume you know what they think, what their motives are or that you can label them all and assign them the rigid, simplistic stereotypical attributes you do. Those are your words and sentiments not theirs.

That is why I said redirect your comments back to the politicians you criticize and your own lifestyle. Redirect your comments back to yourself and how you live,

Your lifestyle man, look at it, Look at how you live. Its easy to say no one should be involved in oil pipeline wars but are you going to change your lifestyle? You going to walk everywhere? Well?

My point is precisely this-you are so busy lecturing you don't see how your own actions are causing what you criticize and you have made no indication in any of your threads you are willing to adjust your lifestyle.

That is what I said.

Then again I didn't expect you would read it or understand it.

As for Canadian soldiers and their mission no they are far more complex then your simplistic and rigid stereotypes of them.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

Blame CNN, I was quoting Anderson Cooper, apparently a lot of Jews think like Canadian Blue where they're bewildered how anyone could put their immoral greed ahead of what is good for the collective group to which they belong.

Here is what I said in its proper context:

Yes, the guy was the top story of the day when I posted that. I referred to him as an *example* of a shyster who does not think in 'we' but 'I'

Hitler would more likely turn the story into "All Jews are shysters and like that banker"... but whatever. I don't really lose sleep over what you have to say.

Reading comprehension is evidently not your strong suit, you seem to fly off the handle with the mere mention of the word Jewish.

I certainly do not think that way. Then again many feel I am a Jewish fraudster.

In fact if we Jews sat around pissing our pants over the dumb things our fellow Jews do we would run out of panties very quickly. Do give some of us Jews some credit. We don't all have bladder problems.

Also let's talk about Anderson Cooper for a second. I don't trust any man with such perfect hair and who looks that crisp and clean. He can't be human. He must be an alien.

Back to the original topic, can you see my point at how these ridiculous generalizations get out of hand?

So now the conspiracy question-was 9-11 a pretense for the oil war? Is Caroline Kennedy Lindsay Lohan's real mother?. Are Canadian soldiers imperialist running dogs?

All these questions need to be answered but the only one who can answer them that true Canadian political analyst, Brent Butt is going off the air.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Rue

[OddSox]

Also let's talk about Anderson Cooper for a second. I don't trust any man with such perfect hair and who looks that crisp and clean. He can't be human. He must be an alien.

Uh Oh, please don't start any new conspiracy theories! Although that one is almost believable... Edited December 19, 2008 by OddSox

[kuzadd]

That is why I said redirect your comments back to the politicians you criticize and your own lifestyle. Redirect your comments back to yourself and how you live,

Your lifestyle man, look at it, Look at how you live. Its easy to say no one should be involved in oil pipeline wars but are you going to change your lifestyle? You going to walk everywhere? Well?

My point is precisely this-you are so busy lecturing you don't see how your own actions are causing what you criticize and you have made no indication in any of your threads you are willing to adjust your lifestyle.

.

actually rue, I don't lecture, I post.

I leave the lecturing to you

example:

' you don't see how your own actions are causing what you criticize "

which means nothing....

"you have made no indication in any of your threads you are willing to adjust your lifestyle. "

my lifestyle is my business, you don't know me, or how I live...

therfore you can't speak of my lifestyle with any relevance to this subject, and I do not speak of yours.

as for canadian soldiers: I expressed no stereotypes of them.

and this is why I don't pay particular attention to what you wrote, it is a bunch of assertations based on assumptions and nothing more. It couldn't possibly be anything else for some of the reasons above.

When I said the soldiers were there for pipeline construction, I backed it up, and I beleive bc chick, provided more info in regards to that.

All your aspersions about me and my lifestyle and this and that are irrelevant nonsense......

Interesting you note this...

"Its easy to say no one should be involved in oil pipeline wars but are you going to change your lifestyle?"

colonialist thinking?

advocation of control or domination of one group, benefitting the dominating group, not benefitting the subordinate group.

Question 1 Why rue, can't oil simply be bought? As in paid for with money from a buyer to a seller?

I wonder why it is you see the need for war as an option to attain oil. When it could just be purchased.

Canada has oil, and we sell it, and we are not militarily invaded and under occupation forces.

Question 2" Rue, Canada has it's own oil, therefore the question that begs asking is why are the Canadian forces in Afghanistan occupying a foreign nation to secure oil resources when WE have our own oil.

Question 3: Rue, shouldn't Canadian troops be ensuring the security of Canada's oil for your all comsuming "lifestyle" concerns?

I look forward to explicit replies for those 3 questions, and not long winded lectures please.... just answer the dam questions......

Edited December 20, 2008 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

Despite the utter nonsense of the war was started in Afghanistan because of 9/11...

It is really not relevant.

The US and it's allies in no shape or form needed to invade and occupy the entire country of Afghanistan for one criminal.

To follow this logic, then any country can invade and occupy another to catch some one who is most wanted.

OH wait, sorry OBL is not wanted for the 9/11 attacks, as per the FBI.

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/terrorists/terbinladen.htm

So hang on, if the US doesn't have enough evidence to arrest OBL for 9/11, and he is not "wanted" for 9/11, they why did they (US and allies) invade and ever since occupy another country allegedly for OBL.

Clearly following common sense thinking OBL was not the real reason for the invasion and occupation.

Making 9/11 a non-starter regarding the attack and occupation of Afghanistan.

Just the simple facts.......

[White Doors]

Blame CNN, I was quoting Anderson Cooper, apparently a lot of Jews think like Canadian Blue where they're bewildered how anyone could put their immoral greed ahead of what is good for the collective group to which they belong.

Here is what I said in its proper context:

Yes, the guy was the top story of the day when I posted that. I referred to him as an *example* of a shyster who does not think in 'we' but 'I'

Hitler would more likely turn the story into "All Jews are shysters and like that banker"... but whatever. I don't really lose sleep over what you have to say.

Reading comprehension is evidently not your strong suit, you seem to fly off the handle with the mere mention of the word Jewish.

Anderson Cooper characterized him as that 'Jewish fraudster'? haha. hardly.

it's ok BC Chick. I see your stripes. As long as your are comfortable with being an anti-semite then that's all that really matters isn't it?

[M.Dancer]

The US and it's allies in no shape or form needed to invade and occupy the entire country of Afghanistan for one criminal.

The thing about logic....when you start with a false asumption, you arrive at an erroneous conclusion.

You are inadvertantly right, it was never about 1 criminal, it was about 1000's of criminals....many are in Cuba today....many more are rotting in their graves...

[moderateamericain]

actually rue, I don't lecture, I post.

I leave the lecturing to you

example:

' you don't see how your own actions are causing what you criticize "

which means nothing....

"you have made no indication in any of your threads you are willing to adjust your lifestyle. "

my lifestyle is my business, you don't know me, or how I live...

therfore you can't speak of my lifestyle with any relevance to this subject, and I do not speak of yours.

as for canadian soldiers: I expressed no stereotypes of them.

and this is why I don't pay particular attention to what you wrote, it is a bunch of assertations based on assumptions and nothing more. It couldn't possibly be anything else for some of the reasons above.

When I said the soldiers were there for pipeline construction, I backed it up, and I beleive bc chick, provided more info in regards to that.

All your aspersions about me and my lifestyle and this and that are irrelevant nonsense......

Interesting you note this...

colonialist thinking?

advocation of control or domination of one group, benefitting the dominating group, not benefitting the subordinate group.

Question 1 Why rue, can't oil simply be bought? As in paid for with money from a buyer to a seller?

Based on your assumption that it is not bought now? Im just trying to be clear in what your asking?

I wonder why it is you see the need for war as an option to attain oil. When it could just be purchased.

Canada has oil, and we sell it, and we are not militarily invaded and under occupation forces.

Question 2" Rue, Canada has it's own oil, therefore the question that begs asking is why are the Canadian forces in Afghanistan occupying a foreign nation to secure oil resources when WE have our own oil.

Defense pacts, Loyalty to Nato and the UN, Because it was percieved to be the right thing to do by your elected leaders

Question 3: Rue, shouldn't Canadian troops be ensuring the security of Canada's oil for your all comsuming "lifestyle" concerns?

Does Canadian Oil Need Security? Any country that attacks you would have to come through your neighbor to the south.

I look forward to explicit replies for those 3 questions, and not long winded lectures please.... just answer the dam questions......

[kuzadd]

moderate american:

"Based on your assumption that it is not bought now? Im just trying to be clear in what your asking?"

it is not possible to buy oil from Afghanistan, their a conduit not a supplier.

there a means to an end.

I should have specified doing business, as in conducting trade. though I did to some degree.

you should read some of the info already posted.

the oil in the pipeline (TAPI) is turkmenistan's oil.

Defense pacts, Loyalty to Nato and the UN, Because it was percieved to be the right thing to do by your elected leaders

oh, yes the all convenient NATO and the UN... lol.

well you can use them for a excuse, certainly they are a means to an end, but, the Canadian troops are still their securing oil resources that Canada is in no need of. Why?

Does Canadian Oil Need Security? Any country that attacks you would have to come through your neighbor to the south.

not necessarily attacks could come from the North..., not through the south

and the troops would be in Afghanistan.

and btw how many troops does the US really have to spare?

unless a draft is instituted?

Edited December 22, 2008 by kuzadd

[kuzadd]

It is also interesting to note these most recent developments wrt Afghanistan.

The mission that is about oilpipelines....

As has already been pointed out ad naseum the pipeline is set to begin consruction in 2010

Richard Boucher, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, said last year: "One of our goals is to stabilize Afghanistan," and to link South and Central Asia "so that energy can flow to the south."

TAPI gas pipeline project to begin in 2010

tapi, that is turkmenistan, afghanistan, pakistan,india

check back for links to stories.....

anyway- most recently U.S. Defence Secretary Robert Gates that Ottawa should reconsider its end date for the Afghanistan mission,

stay: just a little bit longer, please, if you only stay till Dec 2011, the pipeline will certainly not be done, we need you.

of course the Harper gov, fell all over themselves when that was reported to say, oh there has been no change in the date etc etc

but then yesterday it was reported, there was a change..

from no change in date of withdrawal, to dodging the question put to him, such a simple question

PM Harper dodges the question completely

But asked about whether there are any conditions under which Canada could extend its mission beyond December 2011, in light of the vow by U.S. President-elect Barack Obama to increase American efforts there, Harper called it a "hypothetical," and dodged a direct answer.

Imagine my non-suprise, of course PM Harper wouldn't answer that question. He couldn't, because he couldn't simply say NO, not on my watch! Not as long as I am PM!

Because if he is PM at the time of the supposed withdrawal he will extend the mission and so will the Liberals if they are in power.

And it is all about the construction of that pipeline....................

[Sir Bandelot]

If you want to do business with the biggest economy in the world, you have to fight their wars as well.

It's blood for corporate contracts.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Sir Bandelot

[moderateamericain]

moderate american:

it is not possible to buy oil from Afghanistan, their a conduit not a supplier.

there a means to an end.

I should have specified doing business, as in conducting trade. though I did to some degree.

you should read some of the info already posted.

the oil in the pipeline (TAPI) is turkmenistan's oil.

Yes you could, the only thing is, if the western powers decided not to try to assert themselves in this part of the world. What makes you think China and Russia will not? Who would you rather have influence on the flow of oil? Because outside of fantasy land, someone is going to.

Defense pacts, Loyalty to Nato and the UN, Because it was percieved to be the right thing to do by your elected leaders

oh, yes the all convenient NATO and the UN... lol.

well you can use them for a excuse, certainly they are a means to an end, but, the Canadian troops are still their securing oil resources that Canada is in no need of. Why?

not necessarily attacks could come from the North..., not through the south

and the troops would be in Afghanistan.

We could argue back and forth about whether there is a need to be in Afghanistan all day I am sure. That argument is all a matter of perspective. I maintan we should sit on our (US and Canada) oil until we have no other choice but to use it. Use thiers up first. and btw how many troops does the US really have to spare?

unless a draft is instituted?

You can't honestly expect me to answer the combat readiness of the entire US military can you? I can tell you we probably have the most experienced and combat ready soldiers in the world. Does that answer your question?

Edited December 22, 2008 by moderateamericain

[kuzadd]

moderate american: Canada is not sitting on it's oil resource "until it is needed" by us.

we are busily hemmorraghing our resource to america.

" Who would you rather have influence on the flow of oil? '

how about the people to whom the resource belongs?

and btw: I feel that way about Canada's oil too.

I do not have a colonialist mindset.

I think actual, real trade is the way to go.

Or alternative energies to end dependance, are better ways to spend money

[kuzadd]

the latest on Afghanistan and the killing of civilians by allied troops

The Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission has issued a scathing report on the use of air strikes and nighttime raids by international forces in the country.

The report, which was released in Kabul on Tuesday, suggests that NATO is undermining its own mission by stoking resentment in the local population.

Air strikes and nighttime searches of civilian homes are the two main causes of resentment and anger among the local population, according to the 55-page report.

"Afghan families experienced their family members killed or injured, their houses or other property destroyed, or homes invaded at night without any perceived justification or legal authorization," the report says.

"They often did not know who perpetrated the acts against the family or why.… To their knowledge and perception, those who perpetrated the acts were never punished, nor prevented from repeating them."

The report characterizes incursions into homes as violent break-ins that reportedly include "abusive behaviour" and cultural insensitivity, particularly toward women.

interesting to note, from this article:

Several high-profile attacks in recent months have killed scores of civilians. At least several dozen people - including women and children - died during an Aug. 22 U.S. raid on the village of Azizabad in Herat province.

Herat province, like Kandahar, is another province which the TAPI pipeline will pass through.

enroute to it's final destination.....

[moderateamericain]

moderate american: Canada is not sitting on it's oil resource "until it is needed" by us.

we are busily hemmorraghing our resource to america.

" Who would you rather have influence on the flow of oil? '

how about the people to whom the resource belongs?

and btw: I feel that way about Canada's oil too.

I do not have a colonialist mindset.

I think actual, real trade is the way to go.

Or alternative energies to end dependance, are better ways to spend money

Kuzadd I realize were just typing back and forth here, and I understand what your trying to get across, free trade is always the way to go over war. Unfortunetly we live in a real world where a utopian idealogy does not exsist. The FACTS of the matter is between, the US, China, or Russia one of those countries is going to force influence over the region. Its a given. So why dont we start with what we KNOW is going to happen and try to make a better world from there. You can't look at an armed man robbing you and think "if only someone had given him a break" the fact is hes still just going to rob you.