'I was still holding my grandson's hand - the rest was gone&#3

[Argus]

the soldiers are committed to a pipeline.... this is not a do gooder mission in any way shape or form.

invasion and occupation were not necessary, unless the goal was domination and control.

Which it was.

Drivel. I don't know how people can continue to make earnest statements which border on lunacy. They're there to establish a pipline? It's six years on. You see any sign of a pipeline? You see any likelihood one will be built any time soon? And yet the Americans are ramping up their commitment.

You want to build a pipeline through Afghanistan? The cheapest and easiest way is to turn the government over to the Taliban and pay them a nominal fee - far, far less than what the war is costing. You could have your pipeline being built next year.

[DogOnPorch]

But really, maybe another thread is in order, or at least enough courtesy to discuss the op and the film clip that accompanies it?

During a war...sh!t happens. As mentioned in the video you posted, the Taliban were shooting at the Americans from near-by and they mistook the wedding party for the shooters. One might ask if it it wise to gather in large groups in a war zone.

---------------------------------------------

Ex-Leper: Half a dinare for me bloody life story?

Brian: There's no pleasing some people.

Ex-Leper: That's just what Jesus said, sir.

---Life of Brian

[Canadian Blue]

You have chosen to ignore all posts from: Oleg Bach.

Did somebody just say something?

Afghanistan, the war will not be won, Canada is wasting taxpayer dollars and participating in the death of innocents.

Yes, because no innocents died in the utopic land of Taliban dominated Afghanistan, where all the children played under the rainbow with gumdrop smiles in the streets paved with gold and lamp posts made of the finest chocolate.

the west went there to do good, like the "do gooders' we like to think we are.

freedom, woman's rights,

We went their because two jets were flown into skyscrapers full of innocent people. The difference is that after invading Afghanistan we recognized that we needed to help rebuild the country and ensure it was never used as a base for terrorism again.

I don't quite know where you got off on this rant of being critical of soldiers but, whatever floats your boat.

Most soldiers would likely tell you that they're proud of the work they've done over in Afghanistan. That's been the case so far with most members I've known who have gone overseas.

the soldiers are committed to a pipeline.... this is not a do gooder mission in any way shape or form.

invasion and occupation were not necessary, unless the goal was domination and control.

Which it was.

It's called economic development, read up on it sometime.

It is NOT about what I "believe", it is about the FACT that it is a happening.

No, that's an example of you spinning facts and turning it into a mangled abortion.

The comparisons to "others"?

How about "them" aren't they bad too? We aren't any worse then "them"

Yes we are better than them, we follow ROE's and do everything in our power to limit civilian casaulties. The same can't be said for the Taliban and other insurgents in Afghanistan who purposely target civilians.

See they are bad, and "we" are the do-gooders.

No, we're arrogant reckless dicks, the Taliban are assholes, and you're a pussy.

[Moderators, that quote comes from Team America]

Edited December 18, 2008 by Canadian Blue

[kuzadd]

Washington has long promoted a gas pipeline south from Turkmenistan through Afghanistan to Pakistan and India. It would pass through Kandahar.

Realistic or not, construction is planned to start in 2010, and Canadian Forces are committed until December 2011. Richard Boucher, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State, said last year: "One of our goals is to stabilize Afghanistan," and to link South and Central Asia "so that energy can flow to the south."

TAPI gas pipeline project to begin in 2010

tapi, that is turkmenistan, afghanistan, pakistan,india

ISLAMABAD, April 24 (Xinhua) -- Oil ministers from Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and India (TAPI) signed a draft framework on Thursday, agreeing to start construction work of the TAPI gas pipeline project in 2010.

The project cost has risen to 7.6 billion U.S. dollars from originally estimated 3.3 billion dollars in 2004, the official Associated Press of Pakistan (APP) said

The talks on Turkmenistan-Afghanistan-Pakistan gas pipeline project have been underway since 2002

The 7.6-billion-U.S. dollar pipeline project starts from Turkmenistan's Dauletabad field through Herat and Kandahar in Afghanistan to Multan in Pakistan, and finally extends up to Pakistan-India border.

http://rss.xinhuanet.com/newsc/english/200...ent_8044568.htm

Afghanistan and three of its neighbouring countries have agreed to build a $7.6-billion (U.S.) pipeline that would deliver natural gas from Turkmenistan to energy-starved Pakistan and India - a project running right through the volatile Kandahar province - raising questions about what role Canadian Forces may play in defending the project.

I see signs of a pipeline, in the works since at least 2002...

[Canadian Blue]

That's called putting together two disparate facts and then coming to a faulty conclusion. What you're essentially arguing is that the only reason the west is in Afghanistan is because a pipeline just happens to be in the stages of construction there. Now what you're doing is ignoring everything that happened on 9/11 and refusing to recognize at all what would happen if the west were to leave Afghanistan altogether.

[White Doors]

Would be smarter of Turkmenistan to build it to China. Less problems on that route I'd imagine.

[White Doors]

That's called putting together two disparate facts and then coming to a faulty conclusion. What you're essentially arguing is that the only reason the west is in Afghanistan is because a pipeline just happens to be in the stages of construction there. Now what you're doing is ignoring everything that happened on 9/11 and refusing to recognize at all what would happen if the west were to leave Afghanistan altogether.

He/She/It also believes that the Jews and GWB organized and orchestrated 9/11 so that one's not going to get you far with He/She/It.

[Canadian Blue]

If it's a 9/11 truther then it's a lost cause.

Whatever happened to Polynewbie anyways, I recall he had a thread that went to 120 pages on this board.

[White Doors]

If it's a 9/11 truther then it's a lost cause.

Whatever happened to Polynewbie anyways, I recall he had a thread that went to 120 pages on this board.

Not sure.

Wonder if he and this He/She/It will be happy when Obama finds out who REALLY was responsible for 9/11.

[Canadian Blue]

Wonder if he and this He/She/It will be happy when Obama finds out who REALLY was responsible for 9/11.

I blame the League of Assassins.

[kuzadd]

That's called putting together two disparate facts and then coming to a faulty conclusion. What you're essentially arguing is that the only reason the west is in Afghanistan is because a pipeline just happens to be in the stages of construction there. Now what you're doing is ignoring everything that happened on 9/11 and refusing to recognize at all what would happen if the west were to leave Afghanistan altogether.

Yes, the pipeline is "just happening".

It is like a virgin birth, all spontaneous and holy.

Yikes!

[Oleg Bach]

I blame the League of Assassins.

Me too - those vodka hash heads - they will do anything for a smoke and a drink!

[Canadian Blue]

Yes, the pipeline is "just happening".

It is like a virgin birth, all spontaneous and holy.

Yikes!

No, it's called economic development. Most things that happen in the economy are spontaneous, we don't all live in a conspiracy filled fantasy world.

[BC_chick]

That's called putting together two disparate facts and then coming to a faulty conclusion. What you're essentially arguing is that the only reason the west is in Afghanistan is because a pipeline just happens to be in the stages of construction there. Now what you're doing is ignoring everything that happened on 9/11 and refusing to recognize at all what would happen if the west were to leave Afghanistan altogether.

So, let's see, Bush et al were trying to get the Taliban to agree to building a pipeline in Afghanistan, but to no avail. 9/11 happened, the UN agreed to an Afghanistan mission, and what happened next you say is that we lost Bin Laden and when we decided he is no longer relevant to the fight on terror, we decided to stay on and build schools... and while we're at it, we happened to side tracked with a pipeline that we just happened to want beforehand?

Right I could see how making a pipeline would become more important than finding the man we went there to find.

Edited December 18, 2008 by BC_chick

[White Doors]

I blame the League of Assassins.

Close, League of Gentlemen (with help from the kiwanis club of course)

[White Doors]

So, let's see, Bush et al were trying to get the Taliban to agree to building a pipeline in Afghanistan, but to no avail. 9/11 happened, the UN agreed to an Afghanistan mission, and what happened next you say is that we lost Bin Laden and when we decided he is no longer relevant to the fight on terror, we decided to stay on and build schools... and while we're at it, we happened to side tracked with a pipeline?

Right I could see how making a pipeline would become more important than finding the man we went there to find.

Oh yeah, BC Chick is a conspiracy nut too. Forgot about that. I think she is gradually becoming a little embarassed of it all however.

[Oleg Bach]

Nawh - it was a certain ineptness caused by past cocaine use and a hangover - Poor George was asleep at the switch and Cheney was to busy holding a stethescope to his chest while making Clint Eastwood faces in the mirror - and after New York took a hit - they just could not face it for buisness reasons that their "friends" were just having some fun. I guess driving your Mercedes at 300 klicks across the desert of Saudi became boring.

[White Doors]

Nawh - it was a certain ineptness caused by past cocaine use and a hangover - Poor George was asleep at the switch and Cheney was to busy holding a stethescope to his chest while making Clint Eastwood faces in the mirror - and after New York took a hit - they just could not face it for buisness reasons that their "friends" were just having some fun. I guess driving your Mercedes at 300 klicks across the desert of Saudi became boring.

that reminds me, how do you ignore a poster again?

[BC_chick]

I remember this article from October 2001, when the Afghanistan mission started:

Some attractively original theories have been going the rounds about the real reasons for the Afghan war.

It is obviously much more, some columnists and political theorists suggest, than a simple effort to stamp out terrorism.

Apart from the popular theory (in some parts of Europe as well as the Middle East) that this is a war on Islam, there is also the theory that it is a war motivated mainly - or even purely - by long-term economic and political goals.

The importance of Central Asian oil and gas has suddenly been noticed.

The valuable deposits of fossil fuels in Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Azerbaijan, previously discussed only by regional experts and international energy companies, are now being mulled over on the opinion pages of popular dailies.

The article goes on to say it's all hogwash:

It is undeniably true that the Central Asian republics do have very significant reserves of gas and oil, and that they have been having difficulty in getting them on to the world market on conditions favourable to them.

[...]

On the contrary, very few western politicians or oil companies have taken Afghanistan seriously as a major export route - for the simple reason that few believe Afghanistan will ever achieve the stability needed to ensure a regular and uninterrupted flow of oil and gas.

There have been exceptions, of course, like Unocal and the Argentine company Bridas.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1626889.stm

The article concludes that it's conspiracy theories, but fast forward seven years later.... oh shoot, we ARE building the pipeline AND staying on to make sure the country has the required stability to maintain it.....

Over the years, especially the first few years into the war, I remember whenever the pipeline was brought up by anybody anti-war, the answer was always: "where is the pipeline? We've been there all these years? why don't we see it?" Meanwhile, in reality the negotiations were still ongoing for the year 2010.

Now that the pipeline is officially being built, soldiers are coming forth with the same allegations:

The 20-year-old California native has such a strong sentiment because he’s seen war firsthand. He fought with the U.S. Army’s 82nd Airborne Division in Afghanistan for 15 months. [...]

“What I saw in Afghanistan led me to believe that the motives that were put forward to us by the U.S. government and the U.S. army were a total farce,” Tindungan told the Georgia Straight. “They said we were there to bring democracy to the people. They said we were there to rout terrorism and to prevent terrorism. While I was there, I noticed that we’re pissing off more people than we were winning hearts and minds.”

According to him, Canadian troops aren’t doing any differently. “They’re doing the same exact shit that we were doing in our area of operations,” Tindungan said. “I’ve always thought of Canadians…as UN peacekeeper kind of guys.”

Tindungan’s squadron will be redeployed to Iraq in 2009. In June this year, after talking to his Philippines-born parents in California, and like many American soldiers objecting to the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, he crossed the border to Canada.

What also led to his disillusionment was the planned trans-Afghanistan pipeline that will transport natural gas from Turkmenistan to Pakistan and India. It was a matter he and his war buddies talked about in the field but which their officers denied as one of the reasons so many foreign troops are in Afghanistan.

“I can’t believe it was all for money,” Tindungan said. “It’s sort of when the ball drops, it’s hard to realize that you were there because they want to build a pipeline. It still shocks me to know that so many men are dying, so many civilians are dying because of the greed of a few rich old men.”

Pipeline construction starts in 2010. In the first week of the federal election campaign, Conservative Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced that Canadian troops will be pulled out of Afghanistan in 2011.

http://www.straight.com/node/162361

To recap then, first it was we're a bunch of conspiracy theory nuts, then we lacked evidence, now that all the evidence is there, including from soldiers themselves.....

It's all just a matter of coincidence.

[Oleg Bach]

that reminds me, how do you ignore a poster again?

You can do it - and I will help...I will give it must best attempt to be less interesting and much less entertaining...sorry if I interfere....now carry on...concentrate!

[Canadian Blue]

Now that the pipeline is officially being built, soldiers are coming forth with the same allegations:

Imagine that, someone who's deserted his fellow soldiers is against the war in Afghanistan. I'm shocked, but not as shocked to see that he's just as ignorant about what Canadian soldiers actually do [i thought they were all peacekeepers] as he is about why we're in Afghanistan.

Quite frankly he was a coward for abandoning his unit and not even facing a military trial for refusing an order.

To recap then, first it was we're a bunch of conspiracy theory nuts, then we lacked evidence, now that all the evidence is there, including from soldiers themselves.....

It's all just a matter of coincidence.

No, a 20 year old Private who's deserted his unit and doesn't have the cajones to face his punishment is not an example of evidence. All you have is ridiculous rhetoric about how this was all staged for a pipeline, despite the fact that we're losing billions trying to stabilize the country.

[BC_chick]

All you have is ridiculous rhetoric about how this was all staged for a pipeline, despite the fact that we're losing billions trying to stabilize the country.

Canadian Blue, what you seem to fail to grasp, is that powerful men (and women) who mastermind these types of wars (which are not uncommon throughout human history - it so happens that it's the one going on in our lifetime), do not think in 'we'.... they think in 'I'...

Look at what everyone is saying about that Jewish fraudster... "oh my God, how could he have done that to other Jews?!?" Do you think he cared if he was stealing from Jews or gentiles? It's purely about them as an individual.

As for the war on "terror".... where Bin Laden is forgotten and pipeline seems to be what our military is protecting....

People are expendable to these type of men and women, they don't care about Canadians or Americans paying for a war as long as they get rich. They pay off politicians to get their way. They can't possibly get enough support for taking over other lands for greed, so yes, as kuzadd pointed out, propaganda is the tool to gain support.

All colonial powers did the same thing for centuries.... they were bringing civilisation around the world and being magnanimous. It just so happened that they were getting rich themselves in the process. Riiiiight.

Edited December 18, 2008 by BC_chick

[Topaz]

The pipeline is just part of the reasons for war in the Middle-East. The plan is to have US center command in the Middle-East so they can control the region and the oil is the icing on the cake. Why do you think Bush move fast to get into Iraq before really securiting Afghanistan? They have spent a billion alone on a new Embassy that very few US citizens want to go to and work Iraq! The US is not leaving Iraq they will have military there for years and the Iraq government won't be able to do what they want , they will still have to answer to the US. Those people have suffered so much from this war that they probably would say what is the differences between Hussein and what we have now? Most would say, they had jobs, food and they had their families under Hussein. NO ONE wins in wars.

[Canadian Blue]

Canadian Blue, what you seem to fail to grasp, is that powerful men (and women) who mastermind these types of wars (which are not uncommon throughout human history - it so happens that it's the one going on in our lifetime), do not think in 'we'.... they think in 'I'...

No... What you seem to fail to grasp is that this war was started due to two jets flying into skyscrappers in New York City. Keep in mind that Bush was elected in 2000 based partially on his belief that the US had to have a humble foriegn policy.

As for the war on "terror".... where Bin Laden is forgotten and pipeline seems to be what our military is protecting....

Bin Laden is likely in Pakistan, that being said his activities have been greatly diminished since he no longer has a base to operate out of like Afghanistan. To withdraw would simply leave us in the same situation we faced pre-9/11/2001.

People are expendable to these type of men and women, they don't care about Canadians or Americans paying for a war as long as they get rich. They pay off politicians to get their way. They can't possibly get enough support for taking over other lands for greed, so yes, as kuzadd pointed out, propaganda is the tool to gain support.

Save the tug at the heart strings for another day. I quite frankly don't care if a pipeline is being built in Afghanistan, especially if the extra money that comes from it goes into the Afghan governments coffers.

All colonial powers did the same thing for centuries.... they were bringing civilisation around the world and being magnanimous. It just so happened that they were getting rich themselves in the process. Riiiiight.

We're not their as colonial oppressors, once the Afghans have the ability to defend themselves from aggression and have some semblance of stability we'll leave. What you're suggesting is that we leave immediately with absolutely no concern about what'll happen afterwards, and no concern about the possible reprucussions of having a nation where terrorists can operate freely with the sanction of the government.

BTW: Don't attempt to twist the last point by arguing the west are akin to terrorists.

[Oleg Bach]

The pipeline is just part of the reasons for war in the Middle-East. The plan is to have US center command in the Middle-East so they can control the region and the oil is the icing on the cake. Why do you think Bush move fast to get into Iraq before really securiting Afghanistan? They have spent a billion alone on a new Embassy that very few US citizens want to go to and work Iraq! The US is not leaving Iraq they will have military there for years and the Iraq government won't be able to do what they want , they will still have to answer to the US. Those people have suffered so much from this war that they probably would say what is the differences between Hussein and what we have now? Most would say, they had jobs, food and they had their families under Hussein. NO ONE wins in wars.

When was the last time you saw America go into a place and bring it anything of value other than "democracy" - which is worthless without an infrastructure and a healthy populace.