Israelis want peace you say?

[BC_chick]

If I only had a dollar for every time I heard people repeat the mantra that Israelis support the two-state solution whereas even if Israel gave back all the occupied territories, the Palestinians would be the trying to 'push Israel into the sea'....

I'd be rich, because in reality:

Two-thirds of Palestinians support a plan that offers Israel full recognition from the Arab world in return for withdrawing from occupied territory, and nearly two-thirds of Israelis oppose it, according to

a survey released Tuesday.

link

To be honest though, in spite of my opening line, I actually am really surprised about the findings of this poll. I guess hanging out on these boards I was starting to get brainwashed as well believe it to a certain level that most Palestinians do not recognise Israel under any circumstances whereas the majority of Israelis support the two state solution and only the extreme fringes of their society reject it.

Edited December 16, 2008 by BC_chick

[White Doors]

How Surprising that you left this little tidbit out:

The poll showed there's greater support among Israelis for a proposal that would see Israel withdraw from the West Bank and Gaza but keep some Israeli settlements in less than 3 percent of the West Bank. That land would be swapped for an equal amount of Israeli territory

[BC_chick]

How Surprising that you left this little tidbit out:

You mean the part that changes the figures to:

Forty-six percent of Israelis support and 48 percent oppose that plan. Among Palestinians, 54 percent back the plan and 44 percent oppose it.

Still doesn't bolster the image this poll seems to dispute of the uncompromising Palestinians vs. peace-loving Israelis.

Edited December 16, 2008 by BC_chick

[White Doors]

You mean the part that changes the figures to:

Still doesn't bolster the image this poll seems to dispute of the uncompromising Palestinians vs. peace-loving Israelis.

It doesn't besmirch it either.

Israeli's want peace and I can't blame them for being skeptical of giving land to the Palestinians in order to achieve it.

I mean how many times will it take someone slapping you in the face when you want to shake their hand until you start realizing that they don't want peace?

Look what happened when they withdrew from Gaza. Missles started raining down on Israel proper within a week.

What your anti-Israeli belief system has you misunderstanding about this situation is that Israel HAS given up land and it hasn't given them any peace. In fact, Israel's enemies repeatedly and publicly SAY that there will NEVER be any peace until there is no Israel, PERIOD. They live there, they hear this and you don't think that would have any effect? Are you daft?

I think if you asked Israeli's and Palestinians' if they would like peace, full-stop - you would have a different result.

No matter that this question has you immediately rejoicing because you think Israeli's are bloodthirsty and murderous - it has nothing to do with who wants peace or not, it has to do with who wants land.

Your agenda is not allowing you to see this.

[Oleg Bach]

There will be no peace when the world sends the lions share of aid to Israel and their Palistinian brothers are given the crumbs. This creates a great inequity - and it makes the Israeli brotherhood the masters and the Palistinians the cheap labour force...slaves - it's ironic how the Jews go on and on about escaping the bondage of ancient Egypt and proudly proclaim how they were "freed from slavery" - Yet they now continue to attempt to continue to enslave Palistine - It is also hypocritical how they go on and on about the holocaust and the evil Nazis - yet now they have embraced a type of wanna be facism in the middle east - but - the Jews are not to blame - It is the elite in America and Europe that use them to maintain nothing less than a military nuclear out post in the centre of the middle east...protected by the use of a religion that the bulk of the secularist state of Israel hides behind.

[BC_chick]

What your anti-Israeli belief system has you misunderstanding about this situation is that Israel HAS given up land and it hasn't given them any peace.

Right, like Egypt and Jordan....

[White Doors]

Right, like Egypt and Jordan....

Correct, the peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan has not brought Israel peace with the Palestinians.

We are talking about Israel and Palestine here, correct?

Or did you want to expand the scope of the conversation?

Perhaps we could talk about the creation of Israel and the multiple failed Arab attempts to kill it?

Your call

[Oleg Bach]

The average Jew desperately wants peace - the average Palistinian wants the same - It's America and their bully buddies that do not want peace - Peace is bad for buisness.

[GostHacked]

Correct, the peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan has not brought Israel peace with the Palestinians.

We are talking about Israel and Palestine here, correct?

Yep, so why are we mentioning Egypt and Jordan? A peace agreement between Isreal and Egypt/Jordan would make Palestinians happy? How so?

[BC_chick]

Correct, the peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan has not brought Israel peace with the Palestinians.

We are talking about Israel and Palestine here, correct?

Or did you want to expand the scope of the conversation?

Perhaps we could talk about the creation of Israel and the multiple failed Arab attempts to kill it?

Your call

I am by no means saying that they'll be holding hands singing kumbaya together if the occupied territories are returned, obviously peace won't be achieved overnight.

I was demonstrating that Arabs are capable of honouring a peace treaty when they deem it fair. You want to keep using clairvoyance as your reason, then you're damning one side no matter what they do.

Look at it this way, the two extremes positions are: "all of Israel proper belongs to the Jews" vs. "Israel does not belong in the Middle East" (the settlers vs. the extremist Palestinian POV).

Peace is a process, and that process begins with compromise.

Whether or not you want to acknowledge it, this poll shows that given the two extreme positions, Palestinians are more open to compromise than Israelis.

[Oleg Bach]

"peace process" Peace process over and over again for eternity! I hate that term - It is not a process...processes take up time and their is not time line or limit to that damned process. Peace is an instantaneous decision - You decide on it or you do not! Apparently no one can make a decision over there. Where is the will and where is the leadership to utter the words - Lets make peace now - today!

[wulf42]

Israel is the only civilized country over in that part of the world, not only should we give them aid but keep them armed to the teeth!

[JB Globe]

Israel is the only civilized country over in that part of the world, not only should we give them aid but keep them armed to the teeth!

Finally, some intelligence in this post.

What would we do without you wulf42?

[Topaz]

Why doesn't the US and Israel have talks about Israel becoming part of the US? The US wants to have a foot hold in the Middle-East so why not join the two together, it could save the 100 Million it gives every year to Israel!

[DogOnPorch]

Why doesn't the US and Israel have talks about Israel becoming part of the US? The US wants to have a foot hold in the Middle-East so why not join the two together, it could save the 100 Million it gives every year to Israel!

The US only gives money to Israel?

---------------------------------

Do I know what rhetorical means?

---Homer Simpson

[kuzadd]

If Israel really wanted peace, they would have peace.

But one cannot steal land in peace time.

When continued occupation enables that goal so nicely.

[White Doors]

Yep, so why are we mentioning Egypt and Jordan? A peace agreement between Isreal and Egypt/Jordan would make Palestinians happy? How so?

I have no idea, ask BC

[White Doors]

I am by no means saying that they'll be holding hands singing kumbaya together if the occupied territories are returned, obviously peace won't be achieved overnight.

I was demonstrating that Arabs are capable of honouring a peace treaty when they deem it fair. You want to keep using clairvoyance as your reason, then you're damning one side no matter what they do.

Look at it this way, the two extremes positions are: "all of Israel proper belongs to the Jews" vs. "Israel does not belong in the Middle East" (the settlers vs. the extremist Palestinian POV).

Peace is a process, and that process begins with compromise.

Whether or not you want to acknowledge it, this poll shows that given the two extreme positions, Palestinians are more open to compromise than Israelis.

No, if you could only open your blinkered eyes, it most certainly does not mean that.

Especially when a large chunk of the Palestinain population does not agree with Israel's right to exist, at all.

So them agreeing to get more land and Israeli's off of it certainly does not mean that they are open to 'compromise'.

[White Doors]

If Israel really wanted peace, they would have peace.

But one cannot steal land in peace time.

When continued occupation enables that goal so nicely.

What is this, Deep thoughts with Jack Handy?

Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don't know what your rights are, or who the person is you're talking to. Then on the way out, slam the door.

[Rue]

There will be no peace when the world sends the lions share of aid to Israel and their Palistinian brothers are given the crumbs. This creates a great inequity - and it makes the Israeli brotherhood the masters and the Palistinians the cheap labour force...slaves - it's ironic how the Jews go on and on about escaping the bondage of ancient Egypt and proudly proclaim how they were "freed from slavery" - Yet they now continue to attempt to continue to enslave Palistine - It is also hypocritical how they go on and on about the holocaust and the evil Nazis - yet now they have embraced a type of wanna be facism in the middle east - but - the Jews are not to blame - It is the elite in America and Europe that use them to maintain nothing less than a military nuclear out post in the centre of the middle east...protected by the use of a religion that the bulk of the secularist state of Israel hides behind.

Nonsense. Go look at how much aid Palestine gets and what it does with it before you make the ridiculous comment that Israel is getting aid from o ther countries. Israel does not get handouts from anyone. Why don't you find out what the price is on the loans it gets. You think the U.S. simply hands out money without interest being charged? You think Americans do not directly benefit from the technology Israel helps test and develop for them.

Your simplistic depiction of the Israeli economy is one thing but it is also telling you compare it at all with the Palestinian one.

In fact the financial aid given to the Palestinians is intercepted by Hamas or various cell leaders within the PLO and very little of it makes its way to the masses. It has been placed in Swiss and French bank accounts or has been squandered on guns and missiles.

Your selectivity is interesting.

There is absolutely no doubt the Israeli economy is based on security technology an ironic result of being under constant terror attack but that has not arisen because it is simply handed money. That is absolute stereotypical bull.

As for the Palestinian world, it has no economic network. The little it had Hamas deliberately shut down in Gaza and the PLO choke holds on the West Bank.

Do the average Palestinian and Israeli want peaceful co-existence? Probably but at this point it is all a moot point. As long as Palestinians live with no fresh water, open sewage pits and zero jobs and as long as Israelis are under constant threat of terror attack, neither society will evolve past what they are today.

Palestinians need water, jobs and electricity. Israelis need security from terror attacks. Israel's standard of living is far different then with the Palestinians.

Look no further then the role of fundamental religion in each country. Ironically Israel functions because its secular or non fundamentalist or non religious Jews run it not the fundamentalist wack jobs.

Even right wing chauvenists like Benjamin Netanyahu and Likud keep their fundamentalist wing nut supporters in check.

On the other side of the fence the fundamenalists call the shots these days and fundamentalists are not good with economics-to busy preaching ideology to understand a person needs a clean place to crap and eat if their soul is to be able to evolve.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Rue

[kimmy]

If I only had a dollar for every time I heard people repeat the mantra that Israelis support the two-state solution whereas even if Israel gave back all the occupied territories, the Palestinians would be the trying to 'push Israel into the sea'....

I'd be rich, because in reality:

link

To be honest though, in spite of my opening line, I actually am really surprised about the findings of this poll. I guess hanging out on these boards I was starting to get brainwashed as well believe it to a certain level that most Palestinians do not recognise Israel under any circumstances whereas the majority of Israelis support the two state solution and only the extreme fringes of their society reject it.

It doesn't actually matter what the average Palestinian wants. Israel can't base policy decisions on the wishes of a peaceful majority, as long as there's a lethal minority that won't accept any compromise.

Imagine a police negotiator dealing with a gunman with 30 hostages in a bank. While 30 out of 31 people in the bank might be desperately hoping for the same thing, the only opinion that matters is that of the guy with the gun. As long as that guy still has the gun, the opinion of the other 30 people in the bank just doesn't matter.

-k

[BC_chick]

It doesn't actually matter what the average Palestinian wants. Israel can't base policy decisions on the wishes of a peaceful majority, as long as there's a lethal minority that won't accept any compromise.

Imagine a police negotiator dealing with a gunman with 30 hostages in a bank. While 30 out of 31 people in the bank might be desperately hoping for the same thing, the only opinion that matters is that of the guy with the gun. As long as that guy still has the gun, the opinion of the other 30 people in the bank just doesn't matter.

-k

1/3 don't recognise Israel, but that doesn't mean the same percentage are necessarily armed, does it?

In any case, if you want to wait till 100% of Palestinians think alike, you might as well as admit it now, Israel has no intention of ever stop occupying the West Bank.

That is after all, if you're buying into the whole security argument. I find it just a little too convenient that the West Bank happens to be the same Biblical land of Judea and Samara (West of the Jordan River) that some Jews believe is their God given land.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence.

[bush_cheney2004]

....That is after all, if you're buying into the whole security argument. I find it just a little too convenient that the West Bank happens to be the same Biblical land of Judea and Samara (West of the Jordan River) that some Jews believe is their God given land.

"God given" doen't mean jack compared to conquered and occupied by force.

Confusing Jews with Israelis again...oh my!

[BC_chick]

"God given" doen't mean jack compared to conquered and occupied by force.

Confusing Jews with Israelis again...oh my!

I said Jew on purpose because not all Jews see the occupation necessarily a Biblical right. For some it's security, for some it's like you say a conquest, so ya, no... I used the correct term.

And pay attention to the "some" in my sentence... that was the key word.

Edited December 20, 2008 by BC_chick

[bush_cheney2004]

I said Jew on purpose because not all Jews see the occupation necessarily a Biblical right. For some it's security, for some it's like you say a conquest, so ya, no... I used the correct term.

OK....have you also articulated that some "non-Jews" have identical religious claims? Would you extend the same privilege to First Nations in BC? What makes some "Jews" exceptional, other than the capability to back it up?

This line of reasoning reminds me of the Rolling Stones' "Some Girls" LP.