Taliban Rising

[Wild Bill]

As long as the people there want their freedom, its worth while.

You know, often I agree with you but with the Afghanistan mission I have mixed feelings.

I DO believe the mission is worthwhile! I have two daughters myself and the thought of them ever having to live the kind of life the Taliban culture imposes on their women is frankly, repulsive! Burhkas, no education, if they were to be raped THEY would be put to death!

I do not class all cultures as equally moral. Some have very negative aspects that must be eliminated if Mankind is ever to progress as a species.

However, the problem I have with staying in Afghanistan is that other NATO partners aren't pulling their weight! I find this deeply offensive. If they champion freedom so poorly then perhaps we shouldn't be NATO allies. Why should we rely on them if WE were in peril and needed their help?

So how do you get a slacker to pull his weight? By being an enabler and doing the job for him? Should our soldiers continue to pay the price for the moral cowardice of countries like Italy and others?

At the same time, should we cast the Afghanistan people back to the wolves for a failure of those other countries? Perhaps we should continue to contribute and accept the lesson of the lack of character of our so-called NATO partners?

I'm torn on this one.

[jbg]

However, the problem I have with staying in Afghanistan is that other NATO partners aren't pulling their weight! I find this deeply offensive.

The U.S. and Britain are pulling their weight, particularly in Iraq. The non-English speaking NATO members have always been over-talkers and under-performers.

[Wild Bill]

The U.S. and Britain are pulling their weight, particularly in Iraq. The non-English speaking NATO members have always been over-talkers and under-performers.

Love your signature quotes, BTW.

Is that first one about 'choosing us' from Robert Heinlein?

[jbg]

Love your signature quotes, BTW.

Is that first one about 'choosing us' from Robert Heinlein?

Thanks.

I wrote the ones I didn't attribute to others. I have been using "if it's us or them, I choose us" since I joined (and before I was banned from) freedominion.

[eyeball]

You know, often I agree with you but with the Afghanistan mission I have mixed feelings.

I DO believe the mission is worthwhile! I have two daughters myself and the thought of them ever having to live the kind of life the Taliban culture imposes on their women is frankly, repulsive! Burhkas, no education, if they were to be raped THEY would be put to death!

I do not class all cultures as equally moral. Some have very negative aspects that must be eliminated if Mankind is ever to progress as a species.

However, the problem I have with staying in Afghanistan is that other NATO partners aren't pulling their weight! I find this deeply offensive. If they champion freedom so poorly then perhaps we shouldn't be NATO allies. Why should we rely on them if WE were in peril and needed their help?

So how do you get a slacker to pull his weight? By being an enabler and doing the job for him? Should our soldiers continue to pay the price for the moral cowardice of countries like Italy and others?

At the same time, should we cast the Afghanistan people back to the wolves for a failure of those other countries? Perhaps we should continue to contribute and accept the lesson of the lack of character of our so-called NATO partners?

I'm torn on this one.

I'd support more military funding if we used it for sending our troops into places like Burma simply because its wrong to not to do something for people who suffer under military dictatorships. Just state the reasons for going exactly like that, "its wrong to not to do something for people who suffer under military dictatorships". For the benefit of our allies I'd probably also say something like, "if you're not with us then shame on you" for emphasis.

In my dreams.

On the question of character, slackers and enablers; until such time as we see Canada suspending its economic and military agreements with countries that export arms around the world to regimes similar to Burma's it'll always be clear who we're really with.

Edited August 13, 2009 by eyeball

[Moonlight Graham]

They simply do not have enough boots on the ground....what we are seeing is a Vietnam type thing, we take ground then leave and they retake it. If this war is going to be won we need to overwhelm them and kill them with hundreds of thousands of soldiers and Nato countries have to contribute more troops than with what they have right now!

More Afghans are joining the Taliban everyday. What people need to understand is that the Taliban isn't just some isolated group of corrupt warlords & terrorists. The people joining the Taliban are everyday Afghans who are tired of centuries & millenia of foreign powers invading & occupying their country. They also want jobs.

The biggest thing is that the Afghans want us gone & they want to determine the path of their country & gov't by themselves. I don't blame them. If a foreign country invaded Canada you bet i'd grab a gun and try to send them packing.

[bush_cheney2004]

..... If a foreign country invaded Canada you bet i'd grab a gun and try to send them packing.

OK...but make sure it is registered first !

[FuzzyOnDetails]

Thanks.

I wrote the ones I didn't attribute to others. I have been using "if it's us or them, I choose us" since I joined (and before I was banned from) freedominion.

I was banned from there too, and it didn't take long. My first thread a mod wanted to pick a fight.

[Wild Bill]

More Afghans are joining the Taliban everyday. What people need to understand is that the Taliban isn't just some isolated group of corrupt warlords & terrorists. The people joining the Taliban are everyday Afghans who are tired of centuries & millenia of foreign powers invading & occupying their country. They also want jobs.

The biggest thing is that the Afghans want us gone & they want to determine the path of their country & gov't by themselves. I don't blame them. If a foreign country invaded Canada you bet i'd grab a gun and try to send them packing.

Who want us gone? The bulk of the Afghan people or the extremists who keep women ignorant and kill them if the poor folks had the misfortune to be raped?

The people who gave Al-Queda money, support and allowed training camps in their country? The people who kill children if they accept candy from Canadian soldiers?

Why on earth should I respect anything about such neanderthals? Why on earth should I trust them to never attack MY culture?

Why should I abandon their women and children and condemn them by our inaction to such a tragic life?

You have some values that frankly I find rather hard to understand!

[DogOnPorch]

More Afghans Pakistanis are joining the Taliban everyday.

Edited August 13, 2009 by DogOnPorch

[OddSox]

Who want us gone? The bulk of the Afghan people or the extremists who keep women ignorant and kill them if the poor folks had the misfortune to be raped?

The people who gave Al-Queda money, support and allowed training camps in their country? The people who kill children if they accept candy from Canadian soldiers?

Why on earth should I respect anything about such neanderthals? Why on earth should I trust them to never attack MY culture?

Why should I abandon their women and children and condemn them by our inaction to such a tragic life?

You have some values that frankly I find rather hard to understand!

Well said.

[Sir Bandelot]

"These losses, in particular of a senior officer, will have a devastating impact upon the morale not only of the soldiers serving in Afghanistan but the military families all across Canada," Drapeau said Tuesday on CTV's Canada AM. "It brings the point home that at the moment we are certainly not winning and at the moment we need to do something to regain the initiative."

"The Americans are now shifting strategy, but we have yet to know in Canada what is the strategy," Drapeau says. "What is the objective? What is it that will surface that will allow us to declare victory and come home in 2011?"

The downside to the boost in American military might in Afghanistan is the increased risk of civilian casualties, which threatens to erode support among Afghans for the NATO battle against the Taliban.

But while heavy-handed tactics may send civilians into the arms of the Taliban, the alternative puts soldiers, including Canadians, at risk.

"If we up the ante and if we increase the tempo and increase the lethality of what we do, then likely we're going to be causing civilian casualties and they in turn will be more adept at supporting the Taliban. And if we stay as sitting ducks and try to reconstruct and try to be in the nation-building type of mission...then the Taliban are going to take advantage of that as they have done over the past seven or eight years."

"So it's almost a no-win situation," Drapeau says.

NATO troops 'not winning' in Afghanistan

---

Month after month, the evidence (and bodies) continues to pile up, indicating that the current strategy in Afghanistan is not effective. When will someone in the leadership take responsibility, and have the courage to say "Its enough waiting, enough have died. It's time to shift our direction on this."

We have been patient long enough... certainly more patient with the war than with the peace.

[bush_cheney2004]

"The Americans are now shifting strategy, but we have yet to know in Canada what is the strategy," Drapeau says. "What is the objective? What is it that will surface that will allow us to declare victory and come home in 2011?

"

The downside to the boost in American military might in Afghanistan is the increased risk of civilian casualties, which threatens to erode support among Afghans for the NATO battle against the Taliban.

But while heavy-handed tactics may send civilians into the arms of the Taliban, the alternative puts soldiers, including Canadians, at risk...."

Hmmmm...let's see...first it was not enough Americans.....now it's too many Americans and their "heavy handed" tactics. And now a change in strategy to boot. Oh, what's a Canada that has declared an exit "strategy" by 2011 to do?

[Oleg Bach]

Looks like Obama will have to create a new kind of terror industry - start of with the kids and tell them that every person in the world will kill them with pig flu - that should bring in a new generation of Chicken Littles....if you have not noticed the conditioning of the young has already started - Obama has begun the new method of fear mongering and defocusing of the population - may as well get the drones early - He who fears submits to anything - If Obama was sincere he would tell the kid to be fearless and brave - and not respect the president of the United States ...that would be a start - Why should the children respect and empower Bush - Obama is not much different - just has a sweeter singing voice..

[bush_cheney2004]

Looks like Obama will have to create a new kind of terror industry - start of with the kids and tell them that every person in the world will kill them with pig flu -

Won't work......Canada tried this with SARS and it scared people in Ontario, but not British Columbia.

[Army Guy]

"These losses, in particular of a senior officer, will have a devastating impact upon the morale not only of the soldiers serving in Afghanistan but the military families all across Canada," Drapeau said Tuesday on CTV's Canada AM. "It brings the point home that at the moment we are certainly not winning and at the moment we need to do something to regain the initiative."

How is this death any different than any of the others....some said the same thing when the first Female Soldier died in combat...each and every death is a blow to moral, and each and every time we have bounced back. As far as not winning....each day that goes by that the taliban is not in power is a win....for the Afghan people and for us....not winning my ass....

"So it's almost a no-win situation," Drapeau says.

So was vimy ridge, ortona, Juno Beach....almost a no win situation...good thing we did't throw in the towel back then....

Month after month, the evidence (and bodies) continues to pile up, indicating that the current strategy in Afghanistan is not effective. When will someone in the leadership take responsibility, and have the courage to say "Its enough waiting, enough have died. It's time to shift our direction on this.

Those bodies that continue to pile up (your words) are our nations soldiers....those same soldiers that volunteered to go over, those same soldiers are among the few Canadains that believe in this mission, those same soldiers that have the courage to risk everything including thier lives for this mission....perhaps it's time that the rest of Canada show the same courage and support this mission so we can get it over and done with.....

[Fortunata]

not winning my ass....

Two thumbs up!

[jdobbin]

..perhaps it's time that the rest of Canada show the same courage and support this mission so we can get it over and done with.....

So the only reason we haven't won is because we aren't supporting it enough?

Edited September 8, 2009 by jdobbin

[Sir Bandelot]

I don't know what he means by a lack of support. I don't see any significant protesting or calling for a troop withdrawals yet. I think most Canadians definitely support the troops, many support the mission Not sure how many support the war ideology (the idea that war is the solution).

Fact is, there's a lot of effort and money going into this mission from nations all around the world. Yet the Taliban are somehow able to withstand the onslaught of a coordinated effort by the allied forces and the worlds greatest super power. They also withstood it from the soviets, as we all know. I suggest the problem has little to do with insufficient enthusiasm at home.

But hey, I am not a military expert. Let the generals and commanders speak the truth.

Winning is open to many interpretations... August was the worst month ever in the war, in a continually escalating body count over 8 years. And in that time the Taliban have maintained their hold on the southern regions, gained ground in other provinces in the east and west, and encircled Kabul.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington...n-troubles.html

And seems to me, Canada has no real exit strategy or benchmarks for success for 2011... beyond the phrase "time's up, time to cut and run."

Edited September 8, 2009 by Sir Bandelot

[Topaz]

IF this war was about Christians vs Muslims I don't think we could win, being out out numbered and if NATO really finds after a time is it a no-win situation, would they be stupid enough to win by dropping a nuke like they did on Japan. God, I hope they aren't that stupid!!!!

[bush_cheney2004]

IF this war was about Christians vs Muslims I don't think we could win, being out out numbered and if NATO really finds after a time is it a no-win situation, would they be stupid enough to win by dropping a nuke like they did on Japan. God, I hope they aren't that stupid!!!!

Nah...we will just bomb them with pickled pigs feet, cartoons, DVD pornos, sex toys, Brittney Spears records, and rhinestone burkas !

[Army Guy]

I don't know what he means by a lack of support. I don't see any significant protesting or calling for a troop withdrawals yet. I think most Canadians definitely support the troops, many support the mission Not sure how many support the war ideology (the idea that war is the solution).

I think we all agree that we are at war with terrorism, and our nation is currently carring out it's duty in regards to our NATO, and other defense related agreements in Afghanistan....If we agree to this, then you can clearly see that there is a divide within Canada and it's people in supporting both our soldiers and the mission....

Without both you are wasting our lifes and resources for nothing regardless how noble a cause it is.....as we can not win anything without a clear majority of support for both ....

Many people have stated they support one but not the other....and yet they have forgot just how our country works...how politicians think, and what is the end state for them....which is getting re elected regardless of cost and policy....

So when the polls continuely state that the majority of Canadians do not support this mission then "they" the politicians are not going to go again'st the grain, be it get the funding needed to win this thing, or get us the equipment and assets we need now.... with out this we the soldiers will continue to struggle to uphold our end, knowing in the end it will be for nothing...without the support we need....

Fact is, there's a lot of effort and money going into this mission from nations all around the world. Yet the Taliban are somehow able to withstand the onslaught of a coordinated effort by the allied forces and the worlds greatest super power. They also withstood it from the soviets, as we all know. I suggest the problem has little to do with insufficient enthusiasm at home.

I think your getting your facts mixed up, every NATO commander thats commanded the Afghan mission has stated sreveral things over and over, they need more troops....(part of the effort) , they need more funding (part of the money) they need more equipment again part of both effort and money....so while we can say there is alot there needs to be alot more...

Yes , lets bring that up again, the Soviets could not do it....so our mission is impossiable...yes the 10 ft tall Soviet soldier who's very smile brought death to all that observed it.... Fact is the soviets dotrine is not flexiable enough to fight terrorism....there is no room for independant thought by any of the chain of command, they where using cold war tactics such as division size attacks , wiping out entire villages , towns , cities.....anyone who has study or for that matter read anything about the Soviet experiance in Afghan will see why they did not win in the first few pages....

Afghan is not a mission impossiable....thats a media myth supported by those that do not want us in Afghan....everyone of our soldiers does not think we may win....but knows we will win if everyone does ther're part....that includes those at home....I know our soldiers are doing there part....Canadians need to get off thier asses and do thier part....support us and the mission or bring us the f### home.... until they do something / anything perhaps they can stop whinning and complaining.....

Winning is open to many interpretations... August was the worst month ever in the war, in a continually escalating body count over 8 years. And in that time the Taliban have maintained their hold on the southern regions, gained ground in other provinces in the east and west, and encircled Kabul.

No, our progress is interputated by the media, all Canadians do is reguratated the media shit....and take it as gosple...and close out any other sources....Aug was not the worst month, I'm sorry Operation mudusa was the worst month not only for Canada but for NATO as well...how soon we forget....But hey splash it in the media and poof it's fact....

The Taliban do not maintain any hold in the south, another media myth, while it is true they do operate there, NATO has control, of a large majority of the south, and with more US troops pouring in the Taliban so called control is fading very quickly.....As for gaining ground around the capital BS.....there is enough NATO troops in Kabul to start another small war....while the Taaliban may operate in Kabul they do not control anything ....

And seems to me, Canada has no real exit strategy or benchmarks for success for 2011... beyond the phrase "time's up, time to cut and run."

There is no exit strategy, because there is none, we are not going any where soon....despite what any politician says....we may be re roled slightly....but Canadian soldiers will always be in the fight......the only way we will withdrawal is if the NDP get voted in....and thats very unlikely....

[Sir Bandelot]

As far as not winning....each day that goes by that the taliban is not in power is a win....for the Afghan people and for us....not winning my ass....

Evidently not. Remember the news is always worse than what they tell you.

Excerpts from

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32946768/ns/wo...ashington_post/

He repeatedly warns that without more forces and the rapid implementation of a genuine counterinsurgency strategy, defeat is likely.

"Failure to provide adequate resources also risks a longer conflict, greater casualties, higher overall costs, and ultimately, a critical loss of political support. Any of these risks, in turn, are likely to result in mission failure."

McChrystal warns that in the short run, it "is realistic to expect that Afghan and coalition casualties will increase."

"Eliminating insurgent access to narco-profits -- even if possible, and while disruptive -- would not destroy their ability to operate so long as other funding sources remained intact."

His call for more forces is predicated on the adoption of a strategy in which troops emphasize protecting Afghans rather than killing insurgents or controlling territory. Most starkly, he says: "Inadequate resources will likely result in failure. However, without a new strategy, the mission should not be resourced."

So a new strategy should be adapted, one which sounds like cutting back, withdrawing to a defensive position. NOT, hunting for Al-Qaeda in the southern region, as our troops have been doing.

What can I say... I mean its distressing. This General does not support the mission... how do you expect us to support the mission.

Those bodies that continue to pile up (your words) are our nations soldiers....those same soldiers that volunteered to go over, those same soldiers are among the few Canadians that believe in this mission, those same soldiers that have the courage to risk everything including thier lives for this mission....perhaps it's time that the rest of Canada show the same courage and support this mission so we can get it over and done with.....

Wrong. Wrong wrong. The last guy who died, clearly stated he did not support the mission.

Fallen soldier thought Afghan mission 'useless'

And may I say his death shocks my conscience more than any so far. I am sorry this young fellow had to give up his life, for the sake of these indecisive political assholes.

[Argus]

So the only reason we haven't won is because we aren't supporting it enough?

The fact was that until recently, there wasn't anywhere near enough troops in Afghanistan. That's not our fault. It's the fault of the idiot Americans for taking their concentration off, and the gutless Europeans (excluding the Brits and Dutch) for being too terrified of political problems from a pacifistic populace to see any risks to their soldiers. Now the Americans have started sending troops there in large numbers. That, unsurprisingly, has resulted in a highly stepped up fight since areas the Taliban had controlled are now being brought under attack. As the Americans continue to send more troops the situation should eventually stabilize, but it could take a while. It took years to stabilize Iraq, and even though people like to think the Afghanistan fight has been going on just as long, it really has barely begun because there were only a very few troops there doing any fighting.

And really, what exactly is the alternative? Everyone leaves? And then what? Afghanistan lives in peace forever after? Bin Laden's base in Afghanistan had 10,000 soldiers/terrorists in it. It was the central training hub for world terrorism and growing bigger by the month. Do you want it to return? Or maybe have a dozen like it, all safe from attack, all drawing thousands of fanatics from throughout the Muslim world eager to kill and die for Allah?

Edited September 21, 2009 by Argus

[Argus]

Wrong. Wrong wrong. The last guy who died, clearly stated he did not support the mission.

Here's an idea. If you don't want to risk being killed in the Army, don't join the Army. Is that too complicated for you? Or do you think we should be taking referendums among soldiers to see if they agree with missions before deciding to go and do them?

And may I say his death shocks my conscience more than any so far. I am sorry this young fellow had to give up his life, for the sake of these indecisive political assholes.

Why? Because you see him as an anti-military, anti-violence, pacifist who agrees with you, and thus he's a greater loss than the previous soldiers?