debate aftermath

[betsy]

When the opposition, especially Dion and May accused Harper of playing the partisan card everytime they don't agree with him, such as Dion said Harper refer to him as a liberal, I think it was a golden opportunity that Harper let slipped.

Harper could've shown the double-standard and hypocrisy of both Dion and May....as both have been freely and liberally calling and referring to Harper as a "right-wing" and his "right-wing agenda." This has been going on for months!

These two appeared to me like rotten children who call people names and yet when somebody retaliates and calls them names, they whine and sputter in outrage!

Edited October 2, 2008 by betsy

[betsy]

When they were asked to say good things about the person to their left, I would say that ONLY HARPER really delivered that request!

Dion, Layton, Diuceppe and May started off by saying something good.....but not one of these sorry lot could resist the temptation to add something negative! They all said the required "you're nice and good BUT..."

Only Harper showed how he could easily rise above that. He showed by example what the others lack class-wise.

[Argus]

I'll say this. When it came to the economic portion of the debate, Harper was the only man who had a problem lying to people. All the rest lied through their teeth. They all know the current economic problems are insoluable in Canada. They are a world issue based in the US. There isn't anything that can actually be done about it, but that didn't stop them all from insisting that "something" be done. And they would do that "something" even if they couldn't actually explain to you what that would entail.

Dion and Layton are the worst given that Dion's green tax would increase the cost of doing business in Canada, pushing up the cost of transporting goods, the cost of electricity and heating, etc. for business, pushing up the cost of mining and manufacturing. Layton wants to push up corporate tax rates to among the highest in the world. And yet there they both were crying crocodile tears about the economy and the need to help our manufacturing sector. Riiiiight. I think Harper should have shot back that the only way they could help our economy would be to repudiate their platforms. Even the Toronto Star was unimpressed.

Opposition Offers Little on Economy

It reminded me of Chretien when he told Campbell that of course there were a lot of things which could be done to help revive the economy. He had all sorts of plans! He would put Canadians back to work! All he actually ever came up with was taking the money which would have gone to building helicopters and using it to build roads - and canoe museums and golf courses instead. After that, well, he was in power and lost interest. The Canadian recession was a product of the US recession and only when the US improved did it get better here. That is the current situation, as well.

Edited October 2, 2008 by Argus

[Topaz]

I thought they all did well, I noticed that Duceppe asked a question of Harper and Harper wouldn't answer it even though Duceppe asked over it over and over again why he did that to Quebec and then Harper looked uncomfortable and didn't want to answer. Harper kept this smile on his face but when he felt comfortable, you could see it in his eyes and his mouth. I don't think he was picked on, after all he is the PM and that is the point of this debate. I think May also did a good job with the environment issues to Harper and yes, he didn't agree or like it. One thing Harper did say that I thought was not correct was when he said he doesn't like personel attacks but if you watch the House of Commons, he is the FIRST to use one and always finds it funny when one of his own puts down one the opposition party.

[PoliticalCitizen]

The PQ COULD get 9% of the popular vote and get 40 seats. The green party could get 10% of the popular vote and get 0 seats.

This just proves how retarded our voting system is...

[jdobbin]

Clearly the biggest loser in the debate was Dion. He didn't do enough to stem the tide the Liberals face to oblivion. I'm sure his numbers will drop even further in Quebec.

Duceppe was the biggest winner and did what he had to do indicate that he is the man to vote for in Quebec if people don't want the Tories in power.

Harper held his own and won't likely lose seats in Quebec as a result of the debate but he might find it difficult to break the back of the Bloc. His performance is likely to help him more in Ontario and elsewhere for people interested in his economic measures.

Layton and May won't make gains that result in more seats in Quebec. Their performance is neutral as far as this debate goes. The real victory for May was to get to debating table. For Layton, he didn't deliver a performance that will put him in the PM's chair. All he can hope for is an increase in the popular vote in Quebec with the collapse of the Liberal vote.

The Liberals have shown that they are in worse trouble than they imagined and Dion didn't do anything in this debate to change that. The party is crashing down in flames and the situation looks only to get worse if his performance in the English debates in similar.

Edited October 2, 2008 by jdobbin

[PoliticalCitizen]

Invited? She muscled her way in.

Democracy? How is democracy served when her main purpose to be there is solely to stop Harper and to subtly fight in Dion's corner! I don't think she contributed anything in that debate at all except waste valuable time.

She is crass. What's with all that pointing and wagging the finger at an opponent?

That is very impolite to say the least.

Democracy? How is democracy served when she had to muscle her way in?

Good thing she did though, proves Canada doesn't have to follow USA's recipie for KFC Democracy.

[PoliticalCitizen]

When they were asked to say good things about the person to their left, I would say that ONLY HARPER really delivered that request!

Dion, Layton, Diuceppe and May started off by saying something good.....but not one of these sorry lot could resist the temptation to add something negative! They all said the required "you're nice and good BUT..."

Only Harper showed how he could easily rise above that. He showed by example what the others lack class-wise.

You're clearly in love with tha MAN... must be his green eyes... or his pinocchio nose?

[PoliticalCitizen]

I'll say this. When it came to the economic portion of the debate, Harper was the only man who had a problem lying to people.

Hahaha! That's priceless!

Maybe he had nightmares about being Pinocchio and was afraid his nose will grow again?

[Rue]

Gilles Duceppe controlled the debate from the get go. He is a skilled debater in either language and has shown that many times in debates.

What I find interesting though is the French debate ignores French Canadians outside Quebec as if they do not exist and just assumes if any discussion as to French culture comes up it means only Quebec.

That said, I thought Duceppe was excellent although his platform is clearly limited and narrow. Dion I agree with Cap came across as a Priest. He is not warm. He is stiff, rigid and looks angry and bitter. His smile is forced and insincere. His physical presence is clearly a hinderance. It is easy to see how his non verbal mannerisms coupled with his style of speech distorts and prevents people from hearing what he says. He tried hard to point out Liberal policies but he is like the geek professor no one takes seriously but is forced to take his class for credits.

Dion did not harm himself in Quebec but what happened was there was clearly no difference in his platform and Mr. Duceppe's and that is what Mr. Duceppe set out to do and did hands down-show Quebecers he is no different than the other Quebecer running.

Mr. Layton is one smarmy sob. He is a greasy guy. He just oozes slime. He just does not come across as anything but some elitist professor who has contempt for everyone and is only interested in looking at himself in a mirror.

While Mr. Dion and Duceppe clearly made their points, and Mr. Layton speaks good French, and Mr. Layton did do the best job questioning and debating Mr. Harper, other then getting some good shots in at Harper failed to advise of his party's platforms and policies. He spent too much time looking for a knock out punch to Harper to spend any time on his own policies and platforms. Mr. Duceppe and Dion balanced their shots with explaining their policies.

Despite Ms. May's broken French and annoying hand flapping, she was a crucial player in the debates and I am glad she was there. She was a crucial player in challenging Mr. Harper's comments.

Steven Harper had a fixed grin on his face the entire night I would best describe as the face of the Flying Monkies from the Wizard of Oz. I am sure he was coached to smile and look friendly and that he did but he looked very petty calling a doctor who criticized his party's handling of the listeria problem as a Liberal. Now mind you Stepane Dion came across like an idiot when he scolded him for that and saying Dion welcomed the recession. The way Dion scolded him made Dion look like a fool.

In fact Harper's passive approach and constant smile was a meta-message saying to the audience he was the smartest one there and didn't take any of them seriously.

Harper looked bad trying to defend his environmental policies and comments about artists and I think he made a serious mistake not speaking directly to Quebecers about the economy and instead trying to play up his referring to Quebec as a nation. Quebecers don't need tokenism. They want to hear about taxes and jobs.

I do note Harper continually stated the Green shift would increase taxes and its a misrepresentation that has been repeated so many times by him, it is now simply accepted as a fact.

Harper is playing it cool. He is using all the buzz words people want to hear-he won't tax people, he will put nasty teenagers in jail, he won't do anything and people don't need to do anything.

I think Haper is a nasty liar and has a very clear agenda but of course he won't state it he knows if he did, like Dion it would blow him out of the water.

So I score it as follows out of 5, Gilles Duceppe, 4; May, 3; Harper, Dion, Layton, 2.

Not enough to get votes for Dion or Layton away from Duceppe.

[blueblood]

Clearly the biggest loser in the debate was Dion. He didn't do enough to stem the tide the Liberals face to oblivion. I'm sure his numbers will drop even further in Quebec.

Duceppe was the biggest winner and did what he had to do indicate that he is the man to vote for in Quebec if people don't want the Tories in power.

Harper held his own and won't likely lose seats in Quebec as a result of the debate but he might find it difficult to break the back of the Bloc. His performance is likely to help him more in Ontario and elsewhere for people interested in his economic measures.

Layton and May won't make gains that result in more seats in Quebec. Their performance is neutral as far as this debate goes. The real victory for May was to get to debating table. For Layton, he didn't deliver a performance that will put him in the PM's chair. All he can hope for is an increase in the popular vote in Quebec with the collapse of the Liberal vote.

The Liberals have shown that they are in worse trouble than they imagined and Dion didn't do anything in this debate to change that. The party is crashing down in flames and the situation looks only to get worse if his performance in the English debates in similar.

I don't think Dion won or lost. He did what Harper was supposed to do and not lose. Dion's job was to deliver a knock out punch and he didn't.

I was disappointed in Harper though. I thought it was Harper's chance to render the Bloc useless. Harper could have done this by appealing to Quebecers as individuals rather than as a whole as Duceppe does. Perhaps could have explained his fiscal conservative ideology and lumped the 4 left wing parties together. Maybe painted the Bloc as a father knows best party, etc. I thought Harper might lose his majority because of this. You can tell from Harper's mannerisms that he was holding back from delivering his patented "cheap shots"

On the exchanges, harper and duceppe each got their stumps across.

Layton did alright, but I don't think this debate was about him.

May, was a waste of time, throwing a tantrum and calling harper a fraud isn't intelligent debate, he can go on CTV.ca and read the opinions to find that out.

[capricorn]

What I find interesting though is the French debate ignores French Canadians outside Quebec as if they do not exist and just assumes if any discussion as to French culture comes up it means only Quebec.

As a Franco-Ontarian, I fully expect the French debate to be a political show aimed at a Quebec audience. I read a comment somewhere that none of the questions came from outside Quebec. That does not bother me in the least.

Dion I agree with Cap came across as a Priest.

What conjured up that image is that most of the time, he had his hands clasped in front of him as if in prayer. I will be looking out for this in the English debate tonight to see whether he does the same.

Another thing I noticed is that whenever Duceppe or Layton spoke he turned his body around fully to face the speaker. This may be a sign that he does indeed have a hearing problem as he intimated publicly.

Despite Ms. May's broken French and annoying hand flapping, she was a crucial player in the debates and I am glad she was there. She was a crucial player in challenging Mr. Harper's comments.

I found May to be rude and she stood out like a sore thumb. I couldn't help thinking that she used her gender to ram her comments through to the point that the moderator had to bring her to order. I know she is inexperienced but that is no excuse for not knowing how to conduct yourself in such a setting.

Steven Harper had a fixed grin on his face the entire night I would best describe as the face of the Flying Monkies from the Wizard of Oz.

In fact Harper's passive approach and constant smile was a meta-message saying to the audience he was the smartest one there and didn't take any of them seriously.

I was turned off by Harper's overall demeanor for most of the debate. Only when he spoke did he drop the appearance of boredom. As a punching bag, he held up pretty good.

[kengs333]

May, was a waste of time, throwing a tantrum and calling harper a fraud isn't intelligent debate, he can go on CTV.ca and read the opinions to find that out.

Hopefully, one day it will sink in: it's not for you to say. Many people would have argued that the Reform Party was a waste of time, so to the UFA way back when, or any other party that isn't the Conservatives or Liberals for that matter; but the fact is that the Greens are a significant political party in the country now, and they have every right to participate in the debate. You being a chemical intensive Western farmer, I fully understand why you don't want her to...

[Argus]

I I thought Harper might lose his majority because of this. You can tell from Harper's mannerisms that he was holding back from delivering his patented "cheap shots"

Since these cheap shots are patented, perhaps you could give us a brief list.

[Argus]

Despite Ms. May's broken French and annoying hand flapping, she was a crucial player in the debates and I am glad she was there. She was a crucial player in challenging Mr. Harper's comments.

In what way was she a "crucial player"? I mean, given she doesn't actually know anything about anything.

[blueblood]

Since these cheap shots are patented, perhaps you could give us a brief list.

That's a good question, the left wing posters claim harper uses lots of cheap shots that I don't think are bad. If I were to guess, one would be like Stephane Dion's record on the environment is like Gagliano's record on accountability; somewhere along those lines.

But JDobbin says, and he is right by the way, a lot of Canadians don't like the mean spiritedness apparently portrayed by Harper's one liners. As far as I'm concerned Harper can fire away.

I think he let one slip, about Dion's hypocrisy somewheres near the end, it was quite witty.

I think that stuff is great.

Edited October 2, 2008 by blueblood

[blueblood]

Hopefully, one day it will sink in: it's not for you to say. Many people would have argued that the Reform Party was a waste of time, so to the UFA way back when, or any other party that isn't the Conservatives or Liberals for that matter; but the fact is that the Greens are a significant political party in the country now, and they have every right to participate in the debate. You being a chemical intensive Western farmer, I fully understand why you don't want her to...

I can say whatever the hell I want, it's one vote to a customer, if I think May is a waste of time in the debate, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it, and there are lots of people that agree with me. The green party can participate in all the debates it wants to, it's that May who sucks at debating and was throwing a hissy fit, was wasting everyone's time.

[kengs333]

Invited? She muscled her way in.

Democracy? How is democracy served when her main purpose to be there is solely to stop Harper and to subtly fight in Dion's corner! I don't think she contributed anything in that debate at all except waste valuable time.

She is crass. What's with all that pointing and wagging the finger at an opponent?

That is very impolite to say the least.

Give it a rest. Look at all of the previous leadership debates and you'll see that emotions run high from time to time. What about Mulroney's fit about Turner's patronage appointments? So you're just crowing because you don't like May, not because she really did anything wrong.

If you need to ask "how is democracy served" then I'm guess you really don't know what democracy means. She is the leader of a political party that received 660,000+ votes in the last election, has a sitting MP, and consistantly polling much higher this time around. She has every right to be there, and should not have been barred in the first place.

[kengs333]

I can say whatever the hell I want, it's one vote to a customer, if I think May is a waste of time in the debate, that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it, and there are lots of people that agree with me. The green party can participate in all the debates it wants to, it's that May who sucks at debating and was throwing a hissy fit, was wasting everyone's time.

Now, now... don't get all mad on us now. The point is that regardless of what you think of a leader or the party, at times, given that we are in a democracy, people have to look at things in terms of principle not partisan politics.

[noahbody]

Following the debate Dion commented that we need a made in Canada solution, not one made in Australia. I doubt the Conservative war room will recognize this as a gift. But Harper should hammer the point that it was he who stood up and demanded a made in Canada solution, not Dion. Dion pushed for Kyoto which would have sent billions out of Canada while allowing global emissions to increase.

[jdobbin]

I don't think Dion won or lost. He did what Harper was supposed to do and not lose. Dion's job was to deliver a knock out punch and he didn't.

Dion's numbers are already drifting down in the aftermath of the debate. It was another in a series of defeats.

I was disappointed in Harper though. I thought it was Harper's chance to render the Bloc useless. Harper could have done this by appealing to Quebecers as individuals rather than as a whole as Duceppe does. Perhaps could have explained his fiscal conservative ideology and lumped the 4 left wing parties together. Maybe painted the Bloc as a father knows best party, etc. I thought Harper might lose his majority because of this. You can tell from Harper's mannerisms that he was holding back from delivering his patented "cheap shots"

Duceppe has proved to quite capable of getting the strongest results from the debates.

[Moonbox]

I find that so weird too. The more the election drags on the more I like Dion. I dislike his party, but I found out of everyone in the debate last night he was the most composed and most passionate when he was talking.

He seemed, unfortunately, to speak the least during the debate and seemed to have been less a part of the arguments, but when he DID speak I liked him a lot. That's probably because I understood his french better than his english and he wasn't reaching for words but that's an altogether different issue.

Edited October 2, 2008 by Moonbox

[DrGreenthumb]

I find that so weird too. The more the election drags on the more I like Dion. I dislike his party, but I found out of everyone in the debate last night he was the most composed and most passionate when he was talking.

He seemed, unfortunately, to speak the least during the debate and seemed to have been less a part of the arguments, but when he DID speak I liked him a lot. That's probably because I understood his french better than his english and he wasn't reaching for words but that's an altogether different issue.

Did anyone else notice that Harper wasn't wearing his wedding ring? I wonder if he's taking lessons from Vic Toews on how to act when his wife's not around?

[PoliticalCitizen]

In what way was she a "crucial player"? I mean, given she doesn't actually know anything about anything.

Right... that would make her just the same as Harper or any other party leader...

[PoliticalCitizen]

I find that so weird too. The more the election drags on the more I like Dion. I dislike his party, but I found out of everyone in the debate last night he was the most composed and most passionate when he was talking.

He seemed, unfortunately, to speak the least during the debate and seemed to have been less a part of the arguments, but when he DID speak I liked him a lot. That's probably because I understood his french better than his english and he wasn't reaching for words but that's an altogether different issue.

I concur.

Yet somehow when Dion was speaking (finally his mother tongue) he sounded more as a professor and less as a polititcian.