French leader proposes vote on Afghanistan troops

[HisSelf]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080822/ap_on_...nce_afghanistan

Our Bush friendly PM is talking about an election come the fall.

We have now lost close to a hundred Canadian soldiers in Kandahar while the US engages in an internal debate about its role in Iraq.

I say it's time to let the US know that the free ride has ended. This latest BS in Georgia is just getting us in deeper and deeper.

I say we need to follow the French example with a referendum on our involvement in Afghanistan as part of the next election, whether Harper likes it or not.

Edited August 22, 2008 by HisSelf

[Isomorphic]

Get out now.

[HisSelf]

Thanks for havng the cojones to state an opinion instead of just voting and slinking away.

[AngusThermopyle]

Stay until the Afghani's can control the situation. It would be reprehensible and cowardly to just say "screw you, we're outa here).

[PoliticalCitizen]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080822/ap_on_...nce_afghanistan

Our Bush friendly PM is talking about an election come the fall.

We have now lost close to a hundred Canadian soldiers in Kandahar while the US engages in an internal debate about its role in Iraq.

I say it's time to let the US know that the free ride has ended. This latest BS in Georgia is just getting us in deeper and deeper.

I say we need to follow the French example with a referendum on our involvement in Afghanistan as part of the next election, whether Harper likes it or not.

Canada shouldn't have gotten in there in the first place...

There's nothing to be found in Afganistan but pain, suffering and death... ask anyone who comes back alive from there... same goes for Iraq...

Latest western invasion has transformed it from a Taliban-controlled pre-historic cave into the heroin capital of the world...

Now they have more money to buy weapons and practice killing US and Canadian soldiers...

[M.Dancer]

The French Won't have a referendum, lets follow them.

[HisSelf]

Canada shouldn't have gotten in there in the first place...

There's nothing to be found in Afganistan but pain, suffering and death... ask anyone who comes back alive from there... same goes for Iraq...

Latest western invasion has transformed it from a Taliban-controlled pre-historic cave into the heroin capital of the world...

Now they have more money to buy weapons and practice killing US and Canadian soldiers...

I'd agree with you except that we are part of NATO and we have obligations. Iraq, on the other hand, had nothing to do with NATO and the US abandonned its NATO obligations when it went on that wild goose chase.

[DogOnPorch]

Canada shouldn't have gotten in there in the first place...

There's nothing to be found in Afganistan but pain, suffering and death... ask anyone who comes back alive from there... same goes for Iraq...

Latest western invasion has transformed it from a Taliban-controlled pre-historic cave into the heroin capital of the world...

Now they have more money to buy weapons and practice killing US and Canadian soldiers...

The Taliban have used heroin/opium sales in the past to fill their bank accounts. Just when it became politically expedient to say 'we're against selling the West drugs' did they crack down on production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

Stay and finish the job...only we should FINISH it.

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To find out how the opium trade works and how it's related to the Taliban's rise, I spent the afternoon with an Afghan who told me his name was Razzaq. He is a medium-level smuggler in his late 20's... He moved and spoke with the confident ease of a well-protected man. "The whole country is in our services", he told me, "all the way to Turkey." This wasn't bravado.

---Elizabeth Rubin, 2006

[Oleg Bach]

The Taliban have used heroin/opium sales in the past to fill their bank accounts. Just when it became politically expedient to say 'we're against selling the West drugs' did they crack down on production.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

Stay and finish the job...only we should FINISH it.

------------------------------------------

To find out how the opium trade works and how it's related to the Taliban's rise, I spent the afternoon with an Afghan who told me his name was Razzaq. He is a medium-level smuggler in his late 20's... He moved and spoke with the confident ease of a well-protected man. "The whole country is in our services", he told me, "all the way to Turkey." This wasn't bravado.

---Elizabeth Rubin, 2006

Funny how the production of dope went up with our envolvement. You would assme that it would go down. Remember the highest quality pharma euphoric pain killer can not be sythysized. The dope trade is important to legit and non-legit concerns. What I think the issue is - is the possible fact that our old elite want to out macho the primatives who are real men..they don't want the opium cheap - they want it for nothing...so they can sip scotch at the club and brag then sit at the top of the tower on monday morning feeling like men who have killed Taliban from afar via remote control called military.

[Moonlight Graham]

Leave.

What we're doing in Afghanistan is the exact reason why Al-Qaeda et al. wanted to kill us in the first place. What we're doing is asinine, not to mention illogical. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'd agree with you except that we are part of NATO and we have obligations. Iraq, on the other hand, had nothing to do with NATO and the US abandonned its NATO obligations when it went on that wild goose chase.

Yep...no US troops left in Afghanistan.....all the Americans went to Iraq. Canada is fighting NATO's war all by itself with 2700 troops and no helicopters or tactical aircraft...amazing!

Edited August 23, 2008 by bush_cheney2004

[DogOnPorch]

There are at least 15,000 US troops in Afghanistan...mostly with the 10th Mountain if I recall correctly. Hardly abandoned. The war over there...in spite of recent upsurges in our Taliban friends...is fairly low key. Seriously, we lost more men in the first few seconds of the landing craft ramps coming down on Juno Beach. Ninety+ troops dead is indeed a tragedy, but as my wife pointed out, each dead soldier can still be remembered by name.

My picky question is why we don't call a spade a spade when a truck hits a mine? Instead it gets called an IED or any number of other letter combos. Odd how we change the jargon...

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They will hand over the terrorists or they will share in their fate.

---President George W Bush

[PoliticalCitizen]

Stay and finish the job...only we should FINISH it.

The only way to FINISH the job would be to replace the indigenous population of this country with some peace-loving tribes... but that's Joe Stalin's approach... proven to work but unacceptable by today's standards...

The only thing the West can do is LEAVE.

[DogOnPorch]

The only way to FINISH the job would be to replace the indigenous population of this country with some peace-loving tribes... but that's Joe Stalin's approach... proven to work but unacceptable by today's standards...

The only thing the West can do is LEAVE.

No. They should be reinforced to much greater strength and then be given permission to enter the border region of Pakistan by our dear allies the Pakistanis. Blowing up that giant gun market might be #1 or so on the list of things to do. The Pakistanis might be chums at this point and help crush the Taliban inbetween two professional armies.

It's ironically almost the same situation as there was with the Ho-Chi-Mihn Trail back during the Viet-Nam War. You had entire divisions of NVA soldiers sitting just across the border in either Laos or Cambodia, untouchable; slipping back and forth between the war zone and safety as they saw fit. Until Nixon's efforts, that is.

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The press is the enemy.

---President Richard M. Nixon

Edited August 23, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[eyeball]

No. They should be reinforced to much greater strength and then be given permission to enter the border region of Pakistan by our dear allies the Pakistanis. Blowing up that giant gun market might be #1 or so on the list of things to do. The Pakistanis might be chums at this point and help crush the Taliban inbetween two professional armies.

It's ironically almost the same situation as there was with the Ho-Chi-Mihn Trail back during the Viet-Nam War. You had entire divisions of NVA soldiers sitting just across the border in either Laos or Cambodia, untouchable; slipping back and forth between the war zone and safety as they saw fit. Until Nixon's efforts, that is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The press is the enemy.

---President Richard M. Nixon

And we all know what Nixon's efforts yielded.

I'd like to see our own Canadian referendum question be framed in the context DOP has provided. Should we follow the American's example of Vietnam in Afghanistan?

[PoliticalCitizen]

No. They should be reinforced to much greater strength and then be given permission to enter the border region of Pakistan by our dear allies the Pakistanis. Blowing up that giant gun market might be #1 or so on the list of things to do. The Pakistanis might be chums at this point and help crush the Taliban inbetween two professional armies.

It's ironically almost the same situation as there was with the Ho-Chi-Mihn Trail back during the Viet-Nam War. You had entire divisions of NVA soldiers sitting just across the border in either Laos or Cambodia, untouchable; slipping back and forth between the war zone and safety as they saw fit. Until Nixon's efforts, that is.

Don't forget that Pakistan is a nuclear country. De-stabilize the situation there - islamic revolution - kiss Israel good-bye

[DogOnPorch]

And we all know what Nixon's efforts yielded.

I'd like to see our own Canadian referendum question be framed in the context DOP has provided. Should we follow the American's example of Vietnam in Afghanistan?

Public opinion fought the Viet-Nam War. If we let it fight in Afghanistan too, we'll be defeated. The thing to do is (like what Nixon tried to do before the sh*t hit the fan) is hit them where they feel safe. Just go in and do it...and do it HARD. Then you only have to "apologize" once. Nixon blocked the Trail...but then he had to retreat or face the mounting anti-war fury at home. Result: North Vietnamese victory.

But most folks don't have any concept of strategy and tactics; we can't expect them to understand. But we let layman's opinions decide how wars are fought, now. So basically we're screwed. At least our troops are. Perhaps it has something to do with the way 'enemy' has been removed from our PC brains. Who can say?

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A modern revolutionary group heads for the television station.

---Abbie Hoffman

[DogOnPorch]

Don't forget that Pakistan is a nuclear country. De-stabilize the situation there - islamic revolution - kiss Israel good-bye

If it's truely that bad in Pakistan, we'd perhaps better look into knocking them on their rear ends, as well. You can't let a situation that can potentially toast you in your bed go on forever. Thus missile shields, I suppose...eh?

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I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.

---Clint Eastwood

[eyeball]

Public opinion fought the Viet-Nam War. If we let it fight in Afghanistan too, we'll be defeated. The thing to do is (like what Nixon tried to do before the sh*t hit the fan) is hit them where they feel safe. Just go in and do it...and do it HARD. Then you only have to "apologize" once. Nixon blocked the Trail...but then he had to retreat or face the mounting anti-war fury at home. Result: North Vietnamese victory.

But most folks don't have any concept of strategy and tactics; we can't expect them to understand. But we let layman's opinions decide how wars are fought, now. So basically we're screwed. At least our troops are. Perhaps it has something to do with the way 'enemy' has been removed from our PC brains. Who can say?

----------------------------------------------

A modern revolutionary group heads for the television station.

---Abbie Hoffman

Its too late, the politicians have been fighting a PR war over Afghanistan since day one. Canada lost this so-called war before it even got into it.

Letting the politicians opinions decide how wars are fought results in more people getting screwed I think. I don't know if PC has as much to do with it though. I think more people simply know the difference between BS and straight talk when they see it. Imagine if politicians displayed the pagan ethos that Bush_Cheney2004 does for example. Would more people be encouraged to join the fray or less? I only wish politicians were as honest as BC myself.

[Moonlight Graham]

Stay and finish the job...only we should FINISH it.

How do we finish it? Al-Qaeda & the Taliban have safe haven in Pakistan. The U.S.'s numbero uno ally in Pakistan, (former) President Pervez Musharraf, just resigned under threats of impeachment. The very powerful ISI in Pakistan has been playing both sides with the U.S./NATO during this war & almost certainly have no intention of allowing NATO to enter Pakistan to combat Al-Qaeda/Taliban.

Furthermore, you cannot defeat an international ideology with carpet bombs. Even if Afghanistan is a "success", anti-West terrorism will still remain in a massive way. Al-Qaeda did not even originate from Afghanistan, it was mostly used as a safe haven & training ground out of neccessity. Bin Laden is a Saudi. Of the 19 hijackers on 9/11, 15 of them were Saudi Arabian. None of them were Afghani's, none of them members of the Taliban.

In all logic, the U.S. should have invaded Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq. But of course Bush & Co. would never attack their best buddies, but they would be dumb enough to start such a war.

[Moonlight Graham]

No. They should be reinforced to much greater strength and then be given permission to enter the border region of Pakistan by our dear allies the Pakistanis.

Do you not think NATO/U.S. has wanted dearly to enter Pakistan? Access denied, even under the leadership of the U.S.'s dear friend - Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf...who (as i just mentioned above) has just recently resigned as President under impeachment charges. There's just no freaking way we're going to be allowed to start a war within Pakistan.

[DogOnPorch]

Do you not think NATO/U.S. has wanted dearly to enter Pakistan? Access denied, even under the leadership of the U.S.'s dear friend - Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf...who (as i just mentioned above) has just recently resigned as President under impeachment charges. There's just no freaking way we're going to be allowed to start a war within Pakistan.

Pakistan proper doesn't control its Afghan border region. However, if we want to defeat the Taliban, that's where troops will have to go. Perhaps the new 'leader' of that sh*thole will want to get rid of the Taliban, too. If not, we have a problem on our hands.

As for letting the public...and thus a certain percentage of anti-war supporters deciding how wars are fought: we'll continue to lose wars as long as this situation continues. It's dangerous for the troops and a sure way to waste time. Face it, most of us have no qualifications to manage or fight a war...but this armchair is mighty comfy. Want to win? Get the media out of there and let the generals get the job done properly.

It's a war. These are enemies. Deal with them. They'll certainly deal with us if we don't.

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This film cost $31 million. With that kind of money I could have invaded some country.

---Clint Eastwood

Edited August 24, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[M.Dancer]

Leave.

What we're doing in Afghanistan is the exact reason why Al-Qaeda et al. wanted to kill us in the first place. What we're doing is asinine, not to mention illogical. Wash, Rinse, Repeat.

We are killing them at a rate of 10x our lossess, rinse repeat.

Al Qaida smert?

[bush_cheney2004]

In all logic, the U.S. should have invaded Saudi Arabia instead of Iraq. But of course Bush & Co. would never attack their best buddies, but they would be dumb enough to start such a war.

The US and UK were already engaged in Iraq, long before 9/11. But if you insist on such logical fallacies, why didn't Canada "invade" Saudi Arabia?

[DogOnPorch]

eyeball: Letting the politicians opinions decide how wars are fought results in more people getting screwed I think.

Never said poiticians. They are mainly lawyers and/or hardware store owners. Let the military fight wars.

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This is a guy who lived in one house for five and a half years -- in prison.

---McCain spokesman Brian Rogers