PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Russia has never needed anyone else's help to make itself look bad. True, true... Neither did US or Canada Quote You are what you do.
moderateamericain Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) I wouldn't be surprised if there will be more provocations from Georgia.Saakashvili commited a crime against humanity and lost the war so now he desperately needs something to make Russia look bad. All war is a crime against Humanity. I don't believe the death tolls that the Russians and South Ossetians are saying. And I certaintly do not think the South Ossetians are innocent. Russia is dismantling Georgia and to think otherwise is pathetic. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/ap_on_..._georgia_russia Apparently the french want the Russians out too Edited August 17, 2008 by moderateamericain Quote
myata Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) Russia is dismantling Georgia -n military hardware. But we know from what we've seen that they're destroying Georgian military hardware. BBC We'll just never say the whole truth, would we? Russia has never needed anyone else's help to make itself look bad. Kosovo Afghanistan Iraq .... while (to the best of my knowledge) this incident is Russia's first direct military conflict since breakup of Soviet empire. Ergo: keep saying it, and it'll be taken as truth. Rephrasing somebody, never let facts stand in the way of virtue. Edited August 17, 2008 by myata Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
August1991 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 We'll just never say the whole truth, would we?Kosovo Afghanistan Iraq .... while (to the best of my knowledge) this incident is Russia's first direct military conflict since breakup of Soviet empire. It's curious that you would mention Russia and Kosovo in the same reference.Details of Russia's surprise occupation of Pristina airport at the end of the Kosovo war are revealed in a new BBC documentary on the conflict. For the first time, the key players in the tense confrontation between Nato and Russian troops talk about the stand-off which jeopardised the entire peacekeeping mission. BBCRussia's occupation of the airport in Pristina was perhaps one of the first indications that it would not be a team player. Myata, you seem to believe that it is good if someone (anyone) opposes NATO and the US. ----- It is entirely wrong to comapre NATO's invasion fo Afghanistan to defeat the Taliban regime or the US coalition to invade Iraq to eliminate Saddam's regime and what we are now witnessing in Georgia. For starters, teh US will not annex Afghanistan or Iraq. Do you not see the difference between the RCMP enforcing the law by arresting some thugs or the Hell's Angels enforcing its rules by contract killings? Quote
Argus Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 True, true...Neither did US or Canada Odd how the world admires the US and Canada, but nobody admires Russia. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
eyeball Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Do you not see the difference between the RCMP enforcing the law by arresting some thugs or the Hell's Angels enforcing its rules by contract killings? I'd say the difference gets pretty blurry when you consider the RCMP's employers traffic booze. The squabbling over oil fueled power and wealth does reduce nations to the status of thugs and gangs, no matter how pretty their uniforms may be. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
moderateamericain Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) I'd say the difference gets pretty blurry when you consider the RCMP's employers traffic booze. The squabbling over oil fueled power and wealth does reduce nations to the status of thugs and gangs, no matter how pretty their uniforms may be. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/ap_on_.../georgia_russia Aparently Germany doesnt want Russia to hold Georgia either. Thats the US, france, and germany siding with Georgia. And i saw that someone posted about Russia not engaging in any Military action since the break up of the USSR. Your wrong, Chechnya Myata you can stop talking about Kosovo now, its not even a blimp on the radar. 6200 killed by nato bombing 5000 of which were military targets. I would hardly call that an American Atrocity. You would have a better chance of attacking the war in Iraq then Kosovo. Also I seriously doubt a railroad bridge is military hardware or a port city. Edited August 17, 2008 by moderateamericain Quote
moderateamericain Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 I wanna talk this topic in a little different direction now. I wanna shift away from moral imperative. And focus on the future. My question to you all is. What should be the proper response of the west in this situation? Where do we go from here? Personally I think we should fast track Urkraine, Georgia, and any other country that wants it membership into NATO. I also think that if Russia does back down and pull its troops out of Georgia that we should do two things. Recgonize S Ossetia as an indpendent realm (olive branch to Russia) and put a permenant US military base there. What we have to do is make the cost of adventersome for Russia So high in political and military cost that it deturs them from doing this again. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) ....Myata you can stop talking about Kosovo now, its not even a blimp on the radar. 6200 killed by nato bombing 5000 of which were military targets. I would hardly call that an American Atrocity. You would have a better chance of attacking the war in Iraq then Kosovo. Also I seriously doubt a railroad bridge is military hardware or a port city. No...I am delighted that they talk about Kosovo....it was a Canadian joint don'tcha know. We even bombed a railroad bridge at Grdelica...complete with a passenger train...and it wasn't even the big bad neocons in charge. I have often used Kosovo as the Achilles Heel for these sanctimonious human rights peacenik killers...drives 'em nuts. Glad to see others have not forgotten 1999. But I do agree that playing the moral imperative game is a waste of time. Power only respects power. Edited August 17, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080817/ap_on_.../georgia_russiaAparently Germany doesnt want Russia to hold Georgia either. Thats the US, france, and germany siding with Georgia. And i saw that someone posted about Russia not engaging in any Military action since the break up of the USSR. Your wrong, Chechnya Myata you can stop talking about Kosovo now, its not even a blimp on the radar. 6200 killed by nato bombing 5000 of which were military targets. I would hardly call that an American Atrocity. You would have a better chance of attacking the war in Iraq then Kosovo. Also I seriously doubt a railroad bridge is military hardware or a port city. The cynical use of numbers doesn't even begin to describe what happened. Your home town being bombed for 2 months would probably help understanding. But since you like using numbers, so far: - Saakashvili and his military killed around 2,000 civilians and soldiers - Russian troops killed a reported 200 soldiers and civilians It is hard to realize your country and allies are perceived as invaders and murderers by other countries. Could it be because it starts wars and kills civilians everywhere in the world? Hmmmm.... Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 It is hard to realize your country and allies are perceived as invaders and murderers by other countries.Could it be because it starts wars and kills civilians everywhere in the world Whereas Russia is perceived as invaders and murderers right at home! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) I wanna talk this topic in a little different direction now. I wanna shift away from moral imperative. And focus on the future.My question to you all is. What should be the proper response of the west in this situation? Where do we go from here? Personally I think we should fast track Urkraine, Georgia, and any other country that wants it membership into NATO. I also think that if Russia does back down and pull its troops out of Georgia that we should do two things. Recgonize S Ossetia as an indpendent realm (olive branch to Russia) and put a permenant US military base there. What we have to do is make the cost of adventersome for Russia So high in political and military cost that it deturs them from doing this again. Nice steps... Take a Hitler-style crazed leader into NATO... I'm sure everyone in Europe will be happy about that Ukraine will split in two before it joins NATO. The whole Eastern Ukraine speaks mostly Russian and does not consider US-sponsored Yuschenko their leader. Moreover, the PM Timoshenko is now more leaning towards Russia, and a Ukrainian Parliamentary Commission that will investigate the sale of arms (up to 100 tanks) to Georgia - these weapons were used to kill civilians. What can US do? They've already said all the bad words... purposely ignored and misrepresented the facts... didn't help. Now they can suck it down, for the first time in a long while Edited August 17, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Whereas Russia is perceived as invaders and murderers right at home! You do agree that Georgia is HOME to Russians then Just kidding... Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 What can US do?They've already said all the bad words... purposely ignored and misrepresented the facts... didn't help. They can suck it down, for the first time in a long while Yes...a very very long time.....since Russia has been neutered and surrounded. Checkmate. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Yes...a very very long time.....since Russia has been neutered and surrounded. Checkmate. All hopes are on China then to restore the equilibrium in the world I'm sure they are observing closely every single aspect of this conflict as they plan and to capture Taiwan Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 You do agree that Georgia is HOME to Russians then Just kidding... Hell, Canada and the US is home to Russians too. I wonder why they left paradise Russia? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
August1991 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 But I do agree that playing the moral imperative game is a waste of time. Power only respects power.The moral imperative is not a waste of time. The judicious use of force/power can be perfectly moral and legitimate. But might does not make right and simply because someone is stronger does not mean that they are morally right.IOW, the victor is not always right. For long periods of human history, the wrong guy was in power and people suffered as a result. Quote
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Hell, Canada and the US is home to Russians too. I wonder why they left paradise Russia? Russia is pretty damned far from paradise... but it's still a better place to live than many post-USSR republics. I think I understand your general opinion about Russia, BC2004. You have expressed it multiple times in multiple threads. Let me ask you this - let's say I agree with you that Russia is a "has-been" power and a "wannabe but am not" and not a "true democracy" etc. Why do you still bash it for something it finally did right (or as close to "Right" as Russia can)? Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) Russia is pretty damned far from paradise... but it's still a better place to live than many post-USSR republics.I think I understand your general opinion about Russia, BC2004. You have expressed it multiple times in multiple threads. Let me ask you this - let's say I agree with you that Russia is a "has-been" power and a "wannabe but am not" and not a "true democracy" etc. Why do you still bash it for something it finally did right (or as close to "Right" as Russia can)? Because I'm a smart assed American who loves to bust Russian balls. I spent a good portion of my life dedicated to defeating the Soviet Union and it's main sponsor...Russia. And we (the west)....did it. Did you think Russia would get hugs and kisses for invading Georgia? I think it is very telling that even after the UK/US/AUS invaded and occupied all of Iraq, Russia is far more hated for "just" invading part of tiny Georgia. The "world" may not like America's policies, but it sure as hell doesn't get anything out of Russia's. Russia is hated because it is a remnant of collosal failure that keeps on failing. It is the icon for geo-political failure. It is a failure by not only western standards, but also Soviet standards. I watch an "American" gymnast win her gold medal........she was from Moscow. Edited August 17, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
moderateamericain Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 Nice steps...Take a Hitler-style crazed leader into NATO... I'm sure everyone in Europe will be happy about that Ukraine will split in two before it joins NATO. The whole Eastern Ukraine speaks mostly Russian and does not consider US-sponsored Yuschenko their leader. Moreover, the PM Timoshenko is now more leaning towards Russia, and a Ukrainian Parliamentary Commission that will investigate the sale of arms (up to 100 tanks) to Georgia - these weapons were used to kill civilians. What can US do? They've already said all the bad words... purposely ignored and misrepresented the facts... didn't help. Now they can suck it down, for the first time in a long while Do you actually Believe this stuff your saying? 1st of all Urkraine is decidedly not pro Russia, Maybe you failed to see the Ukranian leadership standing with Georgia, refusing to let the Russian ships return to port. http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080401/102683298.html The country your thinking of is Belarus. They ARE pro russian 2. If you think Russia can hold onto Georgia with out completely screwing there economy over your off your rocker. Russia needs western markets. Not wants, NEEDS 3. In your previous post you accused me (i assume by your choice of words the USA) of starting the war. Which is funny because I have not seen one american shoot at a Russian yet. Maybe you should pay attention to who is doing the fighting if you cant identify the difference between a Georgian, a Russian, and an American then what else will you get wrong? Quote
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Because I'm a smart assed American who loves to bust Russian balls. I spent a good portion of my life dedicated to defeating the Soviet Union and it's main sponsor...Russia. And we (the west)....did it. Did you think Russia would get hugs and kisses for invading Georgia? I think it is very telling that even after the UK/US/AUS invaded and occupied all of Iraq, Russia is far more hated for "just" invading part of tiny Georgia. The "world" may not like America's policies, but it sure as hell doesn't get anything out of Russia's.Russia is hated because it is a remnant of collosal failure that keeps on failing. It is the icon for geo-political failure. It is a failure by not only western standards, but also Soviet standards. I watch an "American" gymnast win her gold medal........she was from Moscow. OK, I get your point. And as you said before, "Morals mean nothing"... "Democratically Elected Government" of Georgia commits genocide - CHECK Russia defends their citizens from being slaughtered and then disarms the aggressor - BEEP!!! :angry: As for the rest of the world hating Russia more than US... you probably haven't travelled a lot lately... or do not read news in other languages... The only country in the world that is hated MORE than US is Israel. The rest of the countries are hated less... Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Do you actually Believe this stuff your saying? First of all - I apologize if I offended you or any other member of the board with my rhetoric. I did not mean to make you angry. 1st of all Urkraine is decidedly not pro Russia, Maybe you failed to see the Ukranian leadership standing with Georgia, refusing to let the Russian ships return to port. http://en.rian.ru/russia/20080401/102683298.html The country your thinking of is Belarus. They ARE pro russian You are correct, Ukrainian government is as anti-Russian as can be. But this government represens maybe a bit more than half of the people of Ukraine. Timoshenko, the Prime Minister ("Orange Princess") sympathizes with Russia more now. About the split - look at the vote results (Yuschenko vs Yanukovich). 2. If you think Russia can hold onto Georgia with out completely screwing there economy over your off your rocker. Russia needs western markets. Not wants, NEEDS You are correct again. But Russia does not intend on annexing or destroying Georgia. Just helps the break-away regions to achieve self-determination and disarms Georgian military. 3. In your previous post you accused me (i assume by your choice of words the USA) of starting the war. Which is funny because I have not seen one american shoot at a Russian yet. Maybe you should pay attention to who is doing the fighting if you cant identify the difference between a Georgian, a Russian, and an American then what else will you get wrong? I have not accused you of anything. Unlike most Americans or Canadians you actually do give a damn about what's happening in other countries, so I respect you. Your government (if you are a US citizen) and Israel have armed and trained Georgian military knowing that their prime targets will be South Ossetia and Abkhazia. There are unconfirmed reports of non-Georgian (afroamerican) mercenaries within the Georgian military participating in the slaughter of civilians. Again, I didn't mean to offend you personally or the American people in general - a great nation that all in all has done the most for humanity's progress in the last 200 years: Cars, Radio, Computers, Internet etc. Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 (edited) OK, I get your point. And as you said before, "Morals mean nothing"... Especially Russian morals! "Democratically Elected Government" of Georgia commits genocide - CHECK Russia defends their citizens from being slaughtered and then disarms the aggressor - BEEP!!! :angry: You use these term like "genocide" as if you know what they mean. I don't think you get it...even a half baked emerging democracy in Georgia is far more valuable that the full baked fiasco that is Putin's Russia. As for the rest of the world hating Russia more than US... you probably haven't travelled a lot lately... or do not read news in other languages...The only country in the world that is hated MORE than US is Israel. The rest of the countries are hated less... So may people emmigrating to Russia from the world....NYET! Edited August 17, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
moderateamericain Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 First of all - I apologize if I offended you or any other member of the board with my rhetoric. I did not mean to make you angry.You are correct, Ukrainian government is as anti-Russian as can be. But this government represens maybe a bit more than half of the people of Ukraine. Timoshenko, the Prime Minister ("Orange Princess") sympathizes with Russia more now. About the split - look at the vote results (Yuschenko vs Yanukovich). You are correct again. But Russia does not intend on annexing or destroying Georgia. Just helps the break-away regions to achieve self-determination and disarms Georgian military. I have not accused you of anything. Unlike most Americans or Canadians you actually do give a damn about what's happening in other countries, so I respect you. Your government (if you are a US citizen) and Israel have armed and trained Georgian military knowing that their prime targets will be South Ossetia and Abkhazia. There are unconfirmed reports of non-Georgian (afroamerican) mercenaries within the Georgian military participating in the slaughter of civilians. Again, I didn't mean to offend you personally or the American people in general - a great nation that all in all has done the most for humanity's progress in the last 200 years: Cars, Radio, Computers, Internet etc. Black people are not automatically American. Just an FYI They could have hired Black Mercs from anywhere in the world. Quote
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 Black people are not automatically American. Just an FYI They could have hired Black Mercs from anywhere in the world. Agreed. It could be a lie altogether. But US arming and training Georgian military is not. Quote You are what you do.
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