Open warfare in South Ossetia

[PoliticalCitizen]

What do you know about me? Who am I, where I lived and what I know? The communists, committing the genocide of people in Ukraine were mostly Jews. Are you happy that I pronounced that? If you have doubt, read official documents published by Ukrainian government.

But what difference does it make? What makes you think that such regime could be recognized as not guilty?

The people did not starve to death in millions on their own will. They were murdered. It was well planned and executed by the Soviet regime. Thank you for mentioning genocide of ethnic Russians in addition to genocide of ethnic Ukrainians. Genocide of not just one people, but many. Isn't it less crime against humanity in your mind? The Russia's government denies these Soviet crimes, using the same logic as yours.

You consider it as a blessing? Gigantic territories cut from Russians and granted to ethnic minorities by the will of repressive regime. It wasn't stupidity, it was another crime of commies in power. Crime against Russian people.

You could put a dog on a golden chain, but the dog will still understand that it's still the chain. Even dog would understand that and remember.

I agree that the crimes were commited by the Communist Party of USSR. The Communist Party had members from almost all nationalities and etnic groups.

So why is Ukraine blaming Russia and not Ukrainian Communists? Don't you see a problem with that?

The crime against Poland is very different - it is invasion, treason and murder commited by one country against the other. The only aspect here as well is that it was done by the Soviet Union, not just the Federate Republic of Russia. Soviet Union is now defunct.

[PoliticalCitizen]

According to BBC, Russian troops are now within 18 miles of the capital. Also Russian convoys have been seen stripping things of value from the port city and carting them off (where to unknown) Theres also widespread dismantling of Georgian property, They showed a blown up chunk of a railroad bridge. If the russians wanted to damage them. There doing a great job of it.

Another example of Saakashvili's desinformation. Russia has no interest in destroying infrastructure - it is to expensive to rebuild.

[HisSelf]

And how do you feel about US Government possibly lying (in the best case scenario - not orchestrating) about the tragedy that was later used as a pretext to attack countries on the other end of the globe?

Exactamundo. The Americans are better at playing the press. Of course this is because the US Press protects their citizens and the Russian Press is in jail.

The American Press failed us internationally, if they ever fail us internally, we will be done like a Russian. The veneer of civilisation just seems to get thinner and thinner.

[myata]

According to BBC, Russian troops are now within 18 miles of the capital. Also Russian convoys have been seen stripping things of value from the port city and carting them off (where to unknown) Theres also widespread dismantling of Georgian property, They showed a blown up chunk of a railroad bridge. If the russians wanted to damage them. There doing a great job of it.

This is the link to today's BBC report: BBC story. I could find any mentioning of a bridge. There're reports about a damaged bridge in some other media, but I haven't seen anything that would link it to Russian activities.

BTW, from the same BBC report:

But reports say the agreement contains a provision that allows Russia to implement additional security measures on a temporary basis ahead of the arrival of international ceasefire monitors.

[moderateamericain]

Myata, theres a picture of the bridge on the CNN.com website (its got the BBC stamp on it) If you want visual evidence.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/16....war/index.html

Edited August 16, 2008 by moderateamericain

[PoliticalCitizen]

Myata, theres a picture of the bridge on the CNN.com website (its got the BBC stamp on it) If you want visual evidence.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/16....war/index.html

Does it have a signature saying which side destroyed it?

[MMT]

I agree that the crimes were commited by the Communist Party of USSR. The Communist Party had members from almost all nationalities and etnic groups.

So why is Ukraine blaming Russia and not Ukrainian Communists? Don't you see a problem with that?

The crime against Poland is very different - it is invasion, treason and murder commited by one country against the other. The only aspect here as well is that it was done by the Soviet Union, not just the Federate Republic of Russia. Soviet Union is now defunct.

Nope. If you are from the USSR as it seems to be, you have to admit that the CPSU was not a party in term of normal political structure. It was essential part of the Soviet state itself. You had to be member of that "party" in order to be on top management position and vice versa. No wonder that up to certain moment a general secretary of CPSU signed all international treaties on behalf of the state.

Now, Ukraine do not blame Russian people. Read the documents about inhuman crime against people of Ukraine carefully. You say it doesn't blame communists? Read the papers again. It's clear that over 90% of key murderers were members of that "party". Even though as you said that "party" was represented by almost all nationalities and ethnic groups, you must admit that in 1932-1933 the overwhelming majority of murderers was represented by Jews. If doesn't deny the fact that you could find a fraction of ethnic Russians and Ukrainians amongst them. But it shouldn't hide the fact about what "party" leaders they were and what kind of ethnicity most of them belonged to. Ukrainian accuse the regime of incredible inhuman crimes. The "party" was clearly a backbone of the regime.

Finally, when Soviet empire collapsed, Russia took all responsibilities of former Soviet Union as its recognized successor. If Soviets committed such internationally recognized crime, why wouldn't Russia's authorities admit that crime? Why don't they respect the victims and stop covering the murderers? Any idea, why?

Regarding Poland - I simply replied to you earlier message stating that Russia's empire (Red empire in your case) always respected other people's will. Magically, whatever was brought under Russia's control, all was done "willingly" (your expression). Doesn't it contradict to your very last statement that the Soviet reincarnation of Russia committed the crime against the other country? If you concur, you must admit that your idealistic picture of heaven on Soviet/Russian land is far from being perfect.

[M.Dancer]

While I sympathize with your indignation I cannot help but notice that you are not very familiar with the former Soviet Union or its Republics.

And I find it totally hipocrytic of Georgia and Ukraine to say they were "held by force" within the Soviet Union. Stalin was Georgian and Khruschev was Ukrainian. The peoples of Soviet Union lived together PEACEFULLY and enjoyed almost equal rights.

If you knew the history of Soviet Union you would know that at the time it was formed Poland (another hypocritic country) was annexed to Russian Empire. And Lenin let them and Finland go away because he wanted the republics to be together WILLINGLY.

And then a few years later the Soviets concluded a secret criominla treaty with the NAZIS, invaded Latvia Lithuania, estonia and Poland.....committed one of the first atrocities of the war against the Poles and then held on to those nations until the rusted hands of oppression could no longer hol them down.

Russia has changed. When the Soviet collapsed under the weight of its inifficiency and incompetence, Russia didn't simply cease being a culturally backwards nation....the baggage of 100 years of social stupity is trailing behind them. Ask the Chechens.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Nope. If you are from the USSR as it seems to be, you have to admit that the CPSU was not a party in term of normal political structure. It was essential part of the Soviet state itself. You had to be member of that "party" in order to be on top management position and vice versa. No wonder that up to certain moment a general secretary of CPSU signed all international treaties on behalf of the state.

Now, Ukraine do not blame Russian people. Read the documents about inhuman crime against people of Ukraine carefully. You say it doesn't blame communists? Read the papers again. It's clear that over 90% of key murderers were members of that "party". Even though as you said that "party" was represented by almost all nationalities and ethnic groups, you must admit that in 1932-1933 the overwhelming majority of murderers was represented by Jews. If doesn't deny the fact that you could find a fraction of ethnic Russians and Ukrainians amongst them. But it shouldn't hide the fact about what "party" leaders they were and what kind of ethnicity most of them belonged to. Ukrainian accuse the regime of incredible inhuman crimes. The "party" was clearly a backbone of the regime.

Finally, when Soviet empire collapsed, Russia took all responsibilities of former Soviet Union as its recognized successor. If Soviets committed such internationally recognized crime, why wouldn't Russia's authorities admit that crime? Why don't they respect the victims and stop covering the murderers? Any idea, why?

Regarding Poland - I simply replied to you earlier message stating that Russia's empire (Red empire in your case) always respected other people's will. Magically, whatever was brought under Russia's control, all was done "willingly" (your expression). Doesn't it contradict to your very last statement that the Soviet reincarnation of Russia committed the crime against the other country? If you concur, you must admit that your idealistic picture of heaven on Soviet/Russian land is far from being perfect.

I agree in principle.

But you also have to agree there's a problem in the Western Alliance with one powerful country attacking a weak country with no regard to international laws and agreements, disregarding the decisions of UN, protests from other countries, and inciting other members of the alliance to join in.

[PoliticalCitizen]

And then a few years later the Soviets concluded a secret criominla treaty with the NAZIS, invaded Latvia Lithuania, estonia and Poland.....committed one of the first atrocities of the war against the Poles and then held on to those nations until the rusted hands of oppression could no longer hol them down.

Russia has changed. When the Soviet collapsed under the weight of its inifficiency and incompetence, Russia didn't simply cease being a culturally backwards nation....the baggage of 100 years of social stupity is trailing behind them. Ask the Chechens.

And US is so used to unchecked world domination in the last 2 decades that when a country finally stood up to them, accused them of arming and protecting a president that commited genocide, they have to resort to misrepresentation of the facts and even disinformation and the whole western world feels obligated to join in on that.

This reminds somehow of a lion and a pack of hyenas - very democratic

[M.Dancer]

I agree in principle.

But you also have to agree there's a problem in the Western Alliance with one powerful country attacking a weak country with no regard to international laws and agreements, disregarding the decisions of UN, protests from other countries, and inciting other members of the alliance to join in.

That would be a problem if it ever happens.

[M.Dancer]

And US is so used to unchecked world domination in the last 2 decades that when a country finally stood up to them, accused them of arming and protecting a president that commited genocide, they have to resort to misrepresentation of the facts and even disinformation and the whole western world feels obligated to join in on that.

This reminds somehow of a lion and a pack of hyenas - very democratic

If I drink enough vodka, wil I be able to understand what you are talking about?

[PoliticalCitizen]

That would be a problem if it ever happens.

I guess the western propaganda works no worse than the soviet did

[PoliticalCitizen]

If I drink enough vodka, wil I be able to understand what you are talking about?

Hehehe, I wouldn't recommend trying that - it appears the critical circuitry was disabled as long as West is concerned.

Doublethink, doublespeak...

Have you read 1984 by Orwell?

Scary stuff...

[M.Dancer]

I guess the western propaganda works no worse than the soviet did

No ours is much better. Instead of blindly believing whatever crap eminates from the oriface of the official organ, non tinfoil wearing westerners tend to want facts over opinions. So in fact.....

But you also have to agree there's a problem in the Western Alliance with one powerful country attacking a weak country with no regard to international laws and agreements, disregarding the decisions of UN, protests from other countries, and inciting other members of the alliance to join in.

...these are just unfounded opinions, not facts.

[M.Dancer]

Hehehe, I wouldn't recommend trying that - it appears the critical circuitry was disabled as long as West is concerned.

Doublethink, doublespeak...

Have you read 1984 by Orwell?

Scary stuff...

Of course....Stalinsist Russia was his model.

[HisSelf]

I agree in principle.

But you also have to agree there's a problem in the Western Alliance with one powerful country attacking a weak country with no regard to international laws and agreements, disregarding the decisions of UN, protests from other countries, and inciting other members of the alliance to join in.

Actually the problem is with somebody like Condy Rice running in and getting everyone to sign a contract when there is no court to enforce contract law - say like we might have in the Hague. Oh wait. The International Court in the Hague does exist, but the one country that could use a little contract law right now doesn't respect it. Damned. Can't go there. Damned might get dragged in there for a few, um, indiscretions....

Ha ha Condy.

Contract law. Such a simple principle, but what a tough nut...

[PoliticalCitizen]

Of course....Stalinsist Russia was his model.

And now the west appears to be excelling at that too.

[Argus]

Another example of Saakashvili's desinformation. Russia has no interest in destroying infrastructure - it is to expensive to rebuild.

Not when it's someone else's infrastructure.

[Argus]

According to BBC, Russian troops are now within 18 miles of the capital. Also Russian convoys have been seen stripping things of value from the port city and carting them off (where to unknown) Theres also widespread dismantling of Georgian property, They showed a blown up chunk of a railroad bridge. If the russians wanted to damage them. There doing a great job of it.

Half of them are drunk, the rest are just vandals. It's like Genghis Khan's boys, stealing everything that isn't nailed down and destroying everything that is.

I would never want a war between the US and Russia, but boy I'd like to see these halfassed Russians confronted by a real western army in anything near equal numbers. They'd last about ten minutes before shattering and falling apart.

[myata]

Myata, theres a picture of the bridge on the CNN.com website (its got the BBC stamp on it) If you want visual evidence.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/08/16....war/index.html

There's no BBC stamp on it, not as far as I can see - the print is of CNN. And again, the accusation is coming from Georgia could not be independently confirmed. And there's no attack on Georgia's capital.

It's night of 16th, and we'll check again in a couple of days. I'd expect Russian pullout to begin by then.

In the mean time I won't be commenting on these reports that need further explanations and/or clarifications. There's enough of that from our media already.

[moderateamericain]

There's no BBC stamp on it, not as far as I can see - the print is of CNN. And again, the accusation is coming from Georgia could not be independently confirmed. And there's no attack on Georgia's capital.

It's night of 16th, and we'll check again in a couple of days. I'd expect Russian pullout to begin by then.

In the mean time I won't be commenting on these reports that need further explanations and/or clarifications. There's enough of that from our media already.

Check the BBC video logs, it was on CNN.com in the form of a video from within the country by a BBC reporter i saw it today around.....1220 or so I believe. The bridge was also well behind Russian Lines.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Half of them are drunk, the rest are just vandals. It's like Genghis Khan's boys, stealing everything that isn't nailed down and destroying everything that is.

I would never want a war between the US and Russia, but boy I'd like to see these halfassed Russians confronted by a real western army in anything near equal numbers. They'd last about ten minutes before shattering and falling apart.

Such hateful words... Have Russians killed your family?

Noone has conquered Russia since Genghis Khan.

The French, German, Polish took or got near to Moscow but all were defeated.

Unlike western countries - England, France, Spain, Portugal, US, etc. - Russia has never invaded far away counries - it has enough land.

And besides - quite the opposite of what you said is true - Georgian troops are drunk and shooting at reporters and civilians.

Edited August 17, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[PoliticalCitizen]

Check the BBC video logs, it was on CNN.com in the form of a video from within the country by a BBC reporter i saw it today around.....1220 or so I believe. The bridge was also well behind Russian Lines.

I wouldn't be surprised if there will be more provocations from Georgia.

Saakashvili commited a crime against humanity and lost the war so now he desperately needs something to make Russia look bad.

[bush_cheney2004]

I wouldn't be surprised if there will be more provocations from Georgia.

Saakashvili commited a crime against humanity and lost the war so now he desperately needs something to make Russia look bad.

Russia has never needed anyone else's help to make itself look bad.