August1991 Posted July 12, 2008 Report Posted July 12, 2008 A French court has denied citizenship to a Muslim woman from Morocco, ruling that her practice of "radical" Islam is not compatible with French values. The 32-year-old woman, known as Faiza M, has lived in France since 2000 with her husband - a French national - and their three French-born children. Social services reports said the burqa-wearing Faiza M lived in "total submission to her male relatives". Faiza M said she has never challenged the fundamental values of France. Her initial application for French citizenship was rejected in 2005 on the grounds of "insufficient assimilation" into France. She appealed, and late last month the Conseil d'Etat, France's highest administrative body which also acts as a high court, upheld the decision to deny her citizenship. BBC This is an interesting case, and perhaps I have put it into the wrong category. Should it be in World Politics? I'm sure Steyn will have a word or two about the geopolitical implications. ----- A Libertarian would say that a woman (a person) should be free to wear anything she wants. Argus would argue that the State has the right to control who lives on our common territory. The Left? What would the Left say? 1) This woman is oppressed. Perhaps the best way to alleviate her oppression is to give her citizenship in a progressive society. 2) OTOH, the Left might say that this decision is further evidence that Muslims are an oppressed minority. Tyrannical majorities can now oppress Muslim minorities just as other religious minorities suffered in the past. IMV, society has no obligation nor imperative to enlighten anyone. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. At the same time, I don't see why I should have to accept anyone as my immediate neighbour. Dunno. I'm open to opinions on this one. Quote
Peter F Posted July 12, 2008 Report Posted July 12, 2008 As a lefty I am neither 1 nor 2 but agree with "IMV, society has no obligation nor imperative to enlighten anyone. " Also my immediate neighbours don't accept me - yet I am still thier nieghbour. Quote A bayonet is a tool with a worker at both ends
Leafless Posted July 14, 2008 Report Posted July 14, 2008 It could be viewed by some or many that a radical Muslim equates to being uncivilized. Regardless, it appears France has outlived its tolerance with problematic Muslims and Islam. I think a country reserves the right to protect its citizens against groups that have proven to be harmful. Quote
JB Globe Posted July 15, 2008 Report Posted July 15, 2008 The article doesn't refer to the woman as "devout," that's August's term - I'm wondering why he/she thinks this woman is devout. The article also doesn't really detail why the French court found her to be "radical" - I'm hoping it was a little more sophisticated than the fact that she wears a Niqab (which is not an obligatory article of faith, in any case) My view is that France has FAILED in integrating it's population and that we shouldn't be looking to them for anything other than what NOT to do. By comparison, we've been doing a pretty good job here, and we need to capitalize on our successes and learn from our failures. Quote
eyeball Posted July 15, 2008 Report Posted July 15, 2008 (edited) By comparison, we've been doing a pretty good job here, and we need to capitalize on our successes and learn from our failures. We should also learn as much as we can from other's failures too. Note to August, you can pick your friends but you can't pick your neighbours. Edited July 15, 2008 by eyeball Quote A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
myata Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 IMV, society has no obligation nor imperative to enlighten anyone. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. At the same time, I don't see why I should have to accept anyone as my immediate neighbour. Just as a country isn't obliged to grant it's citizenship to anybody. Other than through an established process. Whether it was following in this specific case, a court will decide. There's nothing "Left" or "Right" in this case. It's all about the law and due process. Quote If it's you or them, the truth is equidistant
Argus Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 If we accept that our culture is better than hers - which I suspect most people would agree to even if reluctant to say so openly - then we can say that it's not in our interests to have a growing number of people within our borders who want to change our cultural value system to more closely reflect hers. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Black Dog Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 If we accept that our culture is better than hers - which I suspect most people would agree to even if reluctant to say so openly - then we can say that it's not in our interests to have a growing number of people within our borders who want to change our cultural value system to more closely reflect hers. If someone wants to come here and live in subservience to their male relatives and wear a bedsheet over their heads, that's unfortunate but that's there prerogative. If they want to apply those rules to the rest of us, that's a problem. But I don't see any evidence of the latter. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 If someone wants to come here and live in subservience to their male relatives and wear a bedsheet over their heads, that's unfortunate but that's there prerogative. If they want to apply those rules to the rest of us, that's a problem. But I don't see any evidence of the latter. Screw universal woman's suffrage. Let the men-folk decide. This is why I trust lefty-types even less than righty-types. They'd drink poison to appear PC. -------------------------------------------- Good for youuuuuuuuuuu!!! ---South Park: Smug Alert Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
JB Globe Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 If we accept that our culture is better than hers - which I suspect most people would agree to What the hell do we even know about her culture? The article describes her as "radical" and gives no examples. I know she wears a niqab, but that's it. Any judgment you pass is based on assumptions. Sure, she could be a radical extremist, or she could just be conservative. We don't know what the deal is at this point. Quote
JB Globe Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 Screw universal woman's suffrage. Let the men-folk decide. Care to expand on that? Are you saying we should enforce some sort of hijab ban or something? Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 Care to expand on that? Are you saying we should enforce some sort of hijab ban or something? Your words. Not mine. Not even a subtle attempt at a Strawman...burp. I'm disappointed. Have another cup of yummy poison while you re-watch "Not With My Daughter". ---------------------------- East Side, West Side, all around the town The kids sang "Ring Around Rosie", "London Bridge is falling down" Boys and girls together, me and Mamie O'Rourke We tripped the light fantastic on the sidewalks of New York ---James W. Blake and Charles E. Lawlor Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
gc1765 Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 If someone wants to come here and live in subservience to their male relatives and wear a bedsheet over their heads, that's unfortunate but that's there prerogative. If they want to apply those rules to the rest of us, that's a problem. But I don't see any evidence of the latter. I was about to post a response, but I think BD has already summed up my opinions quite well... Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 I was about to post a response, but I think BD has already summed up my opinions quite well... As I said. Screw women's rights. Let the men-folk decide. There was a huge political fight in the West back over 100 years ago to elevate women from being mere property. Now it appears some would throw all that out the window or at least partially throw it out the window all to honor the great god of our modern times: Political Correctness. It's a slippery slope...will it only matter if it touches your family personally? Say your daughter marries into such a family. Would you be OK with her new male in-laws turning her into a defacto slave? Better watch that old Sally Field movie as well... -------------------------------------- Boneheads...I'm dealing with boneheads. ---Uncle Duke: Doonesbury Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
gc1765 Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 As I said. Screw women's rights. Let the men-folk decide. There was a huge political fight in the West back over 100 years ago to elevate women from being mere property. Now it appears some would throw all that out the window or at least partially throw it out the window all to honor the great god of our modern times: Political Correctness. I'm saying let the woman decide. She can wear whatever she wants, and she can leave any man who tells her otherwise. Unless somehow the husband is forcefully preventing her from leaving (see the thread on slavery)...in which case that is a very different story. It's funny how you talk about women's rights, but you won't even give her the right to wear what she wants. Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 I'm saying let the woman decide. She can wear whatever she wants, and she can leave any man who tells her otherwise. Unless somehow the husband is forcefully preventing her from leaving (see the thread on slavery)...in which case that is a very different story. It's funny how you talk about women's rights, but you won't even give her the right to wear what she wants. Oh please. What is this? Strawman day? I'm very much for women's rights. That particular woman and many women like her either know no different in terms of woman's rights (it's always been this way...men on top) or she's like the rabid converts that hop into a burqa once converting to Islam. Both are brainwashed in my opinion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages and another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization and backwardness, between the civilized and the primitive, between barbarity and rationality. ---Dr Wafa Sultan Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
gc1765 Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 Oh please. What is this? Strawman day? I'm very much for women's rights. That particular woman and many women like her either know no different in terms of woman's rights (it's always been this way...men on top) or she's like the rabid converts that hop into a burqa once converting to Islam. Both are brainwashed in my opinion. In other words, you don't think women are capable of making this decision for themselves, so you want the state to make it for them. Quote Almost three thousand people died needlessly and tragically at the World Trade Center on September 11; ten thousand Africans die needlessly and tragically every single day-and have died every single day since September 11-of AIDS, TB, and malaria. We need to keep September 11 in perspective, especially because the ten thousand daily deaths are preventable. - Jeffrey Sachs (from his book "The End of Poverty")
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 In other words, you don't think women are capable of making this decision for themselves, so you want the state to make it for them. Yet another Strawman. We're going for a record! I kick small animals and regularly steal from the collection trays of churches while we're at it. --------------------------- Like the sailor said quote: Ain't that a hole in the boat! ---Dean Martin Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Black Dog Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 Oh please. What is this? Strawman day? Must be: As I said. Screw women's rights. Let the men-folk decide. There was a huge political fight in the West back over 100 years ago to elevate women from being mere property. Now it appears some would throw all that out the window or at least partially throw it out the window all to honor the great god of our modern times: Political Correctness. Seriously: what are you babbling about? Political Correctness (whatever the hell that means) has nothing to do with it. We're talking about an individual's right to live their private life as they see fit, whether we like what they do with it or not. It's a slippery slope...will it only matter if it touches your family personally? This is gibberish. Slippery slope? The hell? Say your daughter marries into such a family. Would you be OK with her new male in-laws turning her into a defacto slave? Well, I'd like to think I raised my hypothetical daughter better, but if that's her choice there's nothing I or the state can do about it, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter. Quote
DogOnPorch Posted July 17, 2008 Report Posted July 17, 2008 Must be:Seriously: what are you babbling about? Political Correctness (whatever the hell that means) has nothing to do with it. We're talking about an individual's right to live their private life as they see fit, whether we like what they do with it or not. This is gibberish. Slippery slope? The hell? Well, I'd like to think I raised my hypothetical daughter better, but if that's her choice there's nothing I or the state can do about it, regardless of my personal feelings on the matter. Gibberish my azz. The "left" (and I think I can put you there) has never liked the irony of defending a woman's rights over keeping to political correctness. It's like they can't choose which one to go for...lol. If they were robots, their heads would explode due to the logical conundrum. -------------------- Ink-a-dinka-dink-a-dinka-dink-a-dinka-do... ---Jimmy Durante Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Fortunata Posted July 18, 2008 Report Posted July 18, 2008 It's not just Muslim women that (have to?) wear a particular costume and are expected to be subservient or adhere to a traditional way of life. Mennonite and Hutterite women do. They also don't integrate into the greater community, although, unlike France, Canadians are more welcoming. Now having said that, I agree with France denying entrance to any person or group that they consider undesirable. I personally would like to stop all Muslim immigration into this country. I'm all about assimilation rather than multiculturalism. Quote
Argus Posted July 18, 2008 Report Posted July 18, 2008 If someone wants to come here and live in subservience to their male relatives and wear a bedsheet over their heads, that's unfortunate but that's there prerogative. If they want to apply those rules to the rest of us, that's a problem. But I don't see any evidence of the latter. Why should Canada bring into this country people whose values are the antithesis of our own? I mean, it's not like we don't have a choice here. Immigration is for OUR benefit. And clearly it's not in OUR benefit to bring in people like this. You see no evidence of them wanting to apply those rules to us? I think that will change as their numbers grow, and as they get more involved with politics, their own values will clearly be the basis for their decisions as to how our laws ought to be written. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted July 18, 2008 Report Posted July 18, 2008 It's not just Muslim women that (have to?) wear a particular costume and are expected to be subservient or adhere to a traditional way of life. Mennonite and Hutterite women do. They also don't integrate into the greater community, although, unlike France, Canadians are more welcoming. Now having said that, I agree with France denying entrance to any person or group that they consider undesirable. I personally would like to stop all Muslim immigration into this country. I'm all about assimilation rather than multiculturalism. I'm tripping over Mennonite footbaths at the University everyday! Taking that Mennonite cab from the airport is a tad slow, though. To be fair, some Mennonite communities are apparently ditching the old style clothes if Google images is an indicator. The Mennonite women around here still were the old 1800-ish looking stuff but don't seem to always wear head covering. Many are into Christian punk rock. ---------------------------------------- I will charge thee nothing but the promise that thee will help the next man thee finds in trouble. ---Mennonite Proverb Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Black Dog Posted July 18, 2008 Report Posted July 18, 2008 Gibberish my azz. The "left" (and I think I can put you there) has never liked the irony of defending a woman's rights over keeping to political correctness. It's like they can't choose which one to go for...lol. If they were robots, their heads would explode due to the logical conundrum. I don't know how much simpler I can make this for you without using crayons. It's too bad this woman and others like her choose lifestyles that are antithetical to certain values, but we can't force anybody to do or believe anything. Both are questions of individual liberty. Why should Canada bring into this country people whose values are the antithesis of our own? Why should we care what people look like, wear or believe behind the doors of their home or temple so long as they conform to the laws of our land? Should we launch our own morality police to keep tabs on the ethnically costumed? I mean, it's not like we don't have a choice here. Immigration is for OUR benefit. And clearly it's not in OUR benefit to bring in people like this. Clearly? Not really. I don't really buy into the theory that immigrants are cancers who want to turn our country into carbon copies of their homelands. Most people come here for the superior opportunities our country and way of life presents. Their private lives and beliefs are not really our concern. I think that will change as their numbers grow, and as they get more involved with politics, their own values will clearly be the basis for their decisions as to how our laws ought to be written. Why do you think our culture is so weak? Our laws and values are derived from 200 years of western philosophy and jurisprudence, yet you envision it as a house of cards that can be toppled by the whim of the minority. Besides, as a conservative, I would have thought that you'd welcome a social turn towards the draconian... Quote
Guest American Woman Posted July 18, 2008 Report Posted July 18, 2008 I think the bottom line is that any nation has the right to deny citizenship to whoever they want for whatever reasons. Citizenship isn't a "right." We don't see the Middle East giving us citizenship, letting Westerners live their values over there; and I don't see any threads criticizing that from the people criticizing France-- unless I missed them. Can anyone correct me on that? Quote
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