Iran Threatens To Attack Tel Aviv...

[Black Dog]

Well, aside from the various purges of secular intellectuals as well as their stalinistic suicidal purge of thier officer corps which lead toi the stalemate on thier western front with Saddam's Iraq, there has been the flafrant violation of all the sacred tenents of diplomact and internmational law, the flagrant disregard for due process and human rights....the illegal acts of highs seas terrorism during the tanker wars...state spondsor of nterrorism.....etc etc

None of the above, let's face it, are characteristics unique to Iran. Nor does any of the above demonstrate a flare for the suicidal on the part of the Iranian regime.

[White Doors]

That is probably best for you anyway....afraid to own up to the reality beyond weak affirmations of Canadian complicity....and even then only as hapless victims of the evil Americans. That's where I come in, to make sure that your nostrils are filled with the stink of shit that you only seem to smell in someone else's litter box.

LOL!

[GostHacked]

That is probably best for you anyway....afraid to own up to the reality beyond weak affirmations of Canadian complicity....and even then only as hapless victims of the evil Americans. That's where I come in, to make sure that your nostrils are filled with the stink of shit that you only seem to smell in someone else's litter box.

Almost every time, you have brought up Canada's stinky shit, I have agreed with you. Unfortunately the stench from that litter box to the south overpowers this Canadian stink. But again, I agree that Canada is part of the problem. But you will always downplay this every time I mention the stench from the US. Poor poor BC, almost seems like you are frothing at the mouth whenever you mention Canada.

Iran is no threat the the US or Israel. If anything the US is the threat in the middle east right now. Plain and simple. The US is already doing covert operations in Iran, and at the same time the US complains that Iran is doing operations in Iraq. This goes on and on and around and around. Just like my conversations with BC. Round and round and getting nowhere fast.

Untill people stop apologizing for everything that is going on and saying 'well that is the way it's always been' this bullshit will keep on going, and the thread will keep on growing.

[M.Dancer]

None of the above, let's face it, are characteristics unique to Iran. Nor does any of the above demonstrate a flare for the suicidal on the part of the Iranian regime.

Purging the military a la Stalin just prior to the Iraqi invasion then relying on human wave suidide frontal attacks (because they had no professional officers to stratigize) are indeed signs of a flare for glorious death....

Who said Iran is unique? Iraq once had suicidal tendancies.....look where that got them.

[Rue]

What exactly is Iran's problem with Israel?

The same problem Kuzadd and Buffy have with it. Same reasons.

Also they think I made up the holocaust and use Israel as a false pretense in that regard.

Also I hear they have issues with bagels and lox and Sarah Silevrman.

Look these things happen. We are used to people with beards and no mustaches hating us. Although I am pretty sure the Amish could care less as long as we do not scare their horses.

[M.Dancer]

Iran is no threat the the US or Israel.

That is complete nonsense. Even without the boding possibility of a nuclear armed Iran, Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, terrorism whose target is Israel.

[Rue]

Argus:

And what has Iran actually done in the past 25 years to indicate they are irrational actors? On what basis is the assumption being made that the Iranian regime will suddenly cast aside the obsession with self-preservation that has characterized its actions for the past decades in favour of nuclear suicide (the inevitable consequence of a nuclear strike against Israel)?

Your attempt at feigning ignorance as to the Iranian regime's sordid history is hard to take. You seem quite selective on which counties you criticize. Excuse me if I gag at the question and urge you to use the same standard with Iran you use on Israel and the US.

Here is some reading for you since you golly gee just do not know. You may want to go talk to an Iranian refugee in Canada particularly a gay one or one of those trouble making Bahaiis.

http://www.amnestyusa.org/all-countries/ir...=30&n3=922;

“Amnesty International has reported extensively on a number of human rights abuses--including large-scale arrests, incommunicado detention and torture--have taken place in the context of recent unrest among the country's Arab and Kurdish and Azeri ethnic minorities. Demonstrations held to protest violations have been met with indiscriminate use of violence; several of the victims have been children. Religious minority communities--including Bahais and Muslims practicing Sufism, have also been faced increased persecution in recent months. In recent months, the Iranian authorities have been carrying out a widespread crackdown on civil society, targeting academics, women's rights activists, students, journalists and labor organizers. Hundreds of trade union activists--in particular activists from the Union of Workers of the Tehran and Suburbs Bus Company were arrested as part of measures to prevent planned strikes. Lawyers, web loggers and others who have spoken out against human rights violations have themselves been targeted for abuse. Read more below about how you can stop child executions and help human rights activists in Iran.”

wait don't stop here is the complete list of things to read to answer your question since you have no idea and I am trying to "help";

http://www.parstimes.com/rights/

and yes even trendy leftists (ahem do you know any) have concerns;

http://www.iranfreedomconcert.com/khatami.html

not to mention people in Iran;

http://hriran.org/.

What next. Do you have any questions about Sudan, China, Zimbabwe by any chance?

Regards,

Amy Winehouse

[Rue]

That is complete nonsense. Even without the boding possibility of a nuclear armed Iran, Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, terrorism whose target is Israel.

Personally I believe they are at the present time the greatest danger to their own people but I also believe anyone who underestimates the negative impact they can have on the world economy is foolish.

Is there a lot of bark in their bite? Who really knows. We know they are absolutely ruthless internally to anyone that questions what they do but we also know their actual military technology is questionable but you and I and no one else will never know their true military potential now will we.

Personally I would like to see all diplomatic channels completely exhausted before someone starts yet another war. Does anyone not think a war with Iran would trigger off a dominoe effect of unintended consequences?

Hopefully Iraq and Afghanistan at least have shown that.

You know it is interesting to see countries like Syria squirm and wiggle trying to figure out what side of the coin to play with Iran. Certainly China which has staked its energy future on Iran and Sudan is their biggest ally and contrary to what people may believe Russia has a direct vested financial interest in Iranian oil being blown up and put out of production. Can't imagine Turkey is to keen on having nuclear missiles next door or the ripple effect if any attack on Iran.

I personally would not like to see a straw dog scenario set up to get McCain elected, i.e., coincidentally an attack happening in oh say August or September.

Is it that predictable?

I personally think the best way to defeat Iran is with the inter-net, videos of Paris Hilton, and big macs not to mention being more subtle and helping resistance within the country.

Can't we be a tad more subtle when overthrowing regimes anymore? Remember the good old days when we just got people caught up in sex scandals or started civil wars between tribes and paid off some generals to engage in coups?

What is happening to our world.

[Black Dog]

Purging the military a la Stalin just prior to the Iraqi invasion then relying on human wave suidide frontal attacks (because they had no professional officers to stratigize) are indeed signs of a flare for glorious death....

Because you certainly saw the clerics and the ruling class at the forefront of those human waves. Oh wait: you didn't. They seem quite content to let others die to preserve their rule, but why does anyone assume they are in such arush to see the power base they work so hard to preserve turned into a parking lot?

Who said Iran is unique? Iraq once had suicidal tendancies.....look where that got them.

I would definitely dispute the diagnosis of Iraq as suicidal, but that's a digression. Suffice to say: Iraq =/ Iran. Two different systems of government, two different cultures, two different examples.

rue:

Your attempt at feigning ignorance as to the Iranian regime's sordid history is hard to take. You seem quite selective on which counties you criticize. Excuse me if I gag at the question and urge you to use the same standard with Iran you use on Israel and the US.

Never defended Iran or its record. I simply asked why people think the Iranian regime is suicidal. That has nothing to do with their treatment of gays, women or dissidents, its sponsorship of terrorism etc etc.

[M.Dancer]

Because you certainly saw the clerics and the ruling class at the forefront of those human waves. Oh wait: you didn't.

Actually we did. Revolutionary Guard were led be young shia clerics. While we didn't see any senior rulings class in the front line, that doesn't validate your point. Hitler also didn't fight form the front and yet his suicidal destiny is history. In other words, whether the actual leaders intend on being the first martyrs or the last is irrelevant as long as the direction they lead is nihilistic.

Saddam and Iraq played chicken with the west, opting to allow the world to believe he was hiding WMD. That was suicidal.

[bush_cheney2004]

Almost every time, you have brought up Canada's stinky shit, I have agreed with you. Unfortunately the stench from that litter box to the south overpowers this Canadian stink. But again, I agree that Canada is part of the problem. But you will always downplay this every time I mention the stench from the US. Poor poor BC, almost seems like you are frothing at the mouth whenever you mention Canada.

I don't downplay anything....far from it...I revel in the ham fisted, omnipresent application of raw American power, readily admitting to and volunteering many transgressions and explaining the cynical reasons for them. But you (and several others) only respond when prodded or boxed into the reality of Canadian duplicity/complicity, while never offering anything in the way of stinky Canuck details on your own. Other members are far more forthcoming and balanced in their judgements, even as they criticize US policies.

Iran is no threat the the US or Israel. If anything the US is the threat in the middle east right now. Plain and simple. The US is already doing covert operations in Iran, and at the same time the US complains that Iran is doing operations in Iraq. This goes on and on and around and around. Just like my conversations with BC. Round and round and getting nowhere fast.

Nonsense....Iran has been a threat to the USA and its interests / allies for a very long time. It doesn't need your analysis or consent to draw such conclusions. Moreover, many other nations are pressuring Iran because of perceived (and real) threats.

Untill people stop apologizing for everything that is going on and saying 'well that is the way it's always been' this bullshit will keep on going, and the thread will keep on growing.

Who's apologizing? Certainly not me. The "thread" will keep going on and on because that is the engine of power...those who have it...and those who want it. Your quaint type of morality has always been irrelevant, and is even more so today.

[GostHacked]

That is complete nonsense. Even without the boding possibility of a nuclear armed Iran, Iran is a state sponsor of terrorism, terrorism whose target is Israel.

Iran will never get the bomb. The US and Israel will make sure of it. So this is why I do not consider Iran a threat because they will be taken down before they get the nuke. Iraq was the same way. There was no threat because the US led coalition (pssst BC ...should I put Canada in here to re: Iraq??) took out Iraq. Israel helped by bombing the Osirak reactor in the 80s. After that they had very little chance to develope a nuke. They tried sure, but it was doomed to fail after the reactor was bombed.

North Korea actually HAS nukes. But we hear of nothing but 'talks' between NK and the west. NK thumbs their nose up at the west often enough, and STILL HAS NUKES!!!

Iran will not throw the first volley. But they won't hesitate to fire back. This is what people should be understanding.

All this talk about apeasement with Iran and comparing it to Hitler and Nazi Germany, I think are missguided.

During Hitler's reign, he annexed quite a bit of land from neighbouring countries.

---I don't see Iran doing it.

Apeasement was made by the west and allowed Hitler to take over parts of other countries for a new unified bigger Germany.

---I don't see Iran doing this.

The west then realizing their mistakes, went to war with Nazi Germany.

[M.Dancer]

North Korea actually HAS nukes. But we hear of nothing but 'talks' between NK and the west. NK thumbs their nose up at the west often enough, and STILL HAS NUKES!!!

What makes N Korea different are the 49 million hostages south of the DMZ. I believe everyone is aware that the potential for a massive humanitarian crises is merely a (conventional) missile away.

[bush_cheney2004]

What makes N Korea different are the 49 million hostages south of the DMZ. I believe everyone is aware that the potential for a massive humanitarian crises is merely a (conventional) missile away.

Agreed....each situation has been dealt with on pragmatic terms. The "US lead" actions against "Axis of Evil" members Iraq, DPRK, and Iran even bagged a bonus perp in the way of Libya's weapons program being "voluntarily" dismantled.

And just in case it is not perfectly clear, the Americans will protect Israel with extreme prejudice. And that's what really tweaks the nipples for some of these folks. Iran should feel defensive...even France wants to nuke them!

[Black Dog]

Actually we did. Revolutionary Guard were led be young shia clerics. While we didn't see any senior rulings class in the front line, that doesn't validate your point. Hitler also didn't fight form the front and yet his suicidal destiny is history. In other words, whether the actual leaders intend on being the first martyrs or the last is irrelevant as long as the direction they lead is nihilistic.

A point which you have yet to prove. Look, if Iran wanted to kick off a global catastrophe and wipe themselves out, they could have done so a thousand times by now. The fact that their values and policy objectives may not be compatible with those of the U.S. and its allies does not automatically mean they are suicidal end-timers.

Saddam and Iraq played chicken with the west, opting to allow the world to believe he was hiding WMD. That was suicidal.

Ah yes: hindsight. Very useful.

[M.Dancer]

A point which you have yet to prove.....

Which point? That the human waves were led by clerics or that the actions have been suicidal?

[Black Dog]

Which point? That the human waves were led by clerics or that the actions have been suicidal?

That these actions demonstrate the suicidal irrationality of the regime itself. Though now that you mention it, there's an interesting historical parallel: regime purges military leadership in fit of idealogical pique, is attacked by aggressive neighbour and forced to use crude tactics on the battlefield in defense, such as sending masses of poorly trained men into battle, often unarmed. Yet somehow the Soviet Union never resorted to suicidal nuclear strikes despite exhibiting such suicidal behaviour.

[M.Dancer]

That these actions demonstrate the suicidal irrationality of the regime itself. Though now that you mention it, there's an interesting historical parallel: regime purges military leadership in fit of idealogical pique, is attacked by aggressive neighbour and forced to use crude tactics on the battlefield in defense, such as sending masses of poorly trained men into battle, often unarmed. Yet somehow the Soviet Union never resorted to suicidal nuclear strikes despite exhibiting such suicidal behaviour.

You assume there has only been one USSR. Not the case. Stalin's USSR is unique....

That would be true but Stalinist Soviet Union never had a nuclear capability. Their ideaology promoted sacrifice of the individual for the greater good of the collective, sacrifice was not the ends to the means as it is with those who see geopolitic as a battle between God and the Great Satan. Even so Stalin's purges, blindness to the national socialist agenda, and wholesale engineered famines displays a willingness to cut the nose to spite the face....

[myata]

Of course, Iran made a statement that the attacks will be launched if Iran itself is attacked. As mused extensively by both US and Israel. But who cares about the truth, right? And it's a high war crime to resist democratic liberation anyways.

[Black Dog]

You assume there has only been one USSR. Not the case. Stalin's USSR is unique....

And Khomeni's Iran is not the Iran of Ahmadinejad.

That would be true but Stalinist Soviet Union never had a nuclear capability. Their ideaology promoted sacrifice of the individual for the greater good of the collective, sacrifice was not the ends to the means as it is with those who see geopolitic as a battle between God and the Great Satan

Yet for all that Iran behaves very much like a rational actor:

"Our assessment that Iran halted the (nuclear) program in 2003 primarily in response to international pressure indicates Tehran's decisions are guided by a cost-benefit approach rather than a rush to a weapon irrespective of the political economic and military costs.This, in turn, suggests that some combination of threats of intensified international scrutiny and pressures, along with opportunities for Iran to achieve its security, prestige and goals for regional influence in other ways, might -- if perceived by Iran's leaders as credible -- prompt Tehran to extend the current halt to its nuclear weapons program."

-2007 CIA NIE

Even so Stalin's purges, blindness to the national socialist agenda, and wholesale engineered famines displays a willingness to cut the nose to spite the face....

Do not confuse stupidity or incompetence with actual suicidal intent.

[GostHacked]

What makes N Korea different are the 49 million hostages south of the DMZ. I believe everyone is aware that the potential for a massive humanitarian crises is merely a (conventional) missile away.

Wow those hostages in South Korea sure live the good life ... for hostages. You would be correct to day that North Korea holds it's own citizens hostage, for they have no contact with the outside world. South Korea is a free and open society that even exports pretty damn fine cars.... hostages .. hahahhaha.

Would be hard to hold Starcraft tournaments in North Korea.

[M.Dancer]

Wow those hostages in South Korea sure live the good life ... for hostages. You would be correct to day that North Korea holds it's own citizens hostage, for they have no contact with the outside world. South Korea is a free and open society that even exports pretty damn fine cars.... hostages .. hahahhaha.

Would be hard to hold Starcraft tournaments in North Korea.

Maybe my language was too colourful. The south koreans are pawns. Everyone steps lightly around North Korea because any attacks by reason of geography would cause an incredible disaster for the south koreans so, they are in effect hostages to the whim of te North.

[Argus]

Argus:

And what has Iran actually done in the past 25 years to indicate they are irrational actors?

Is that a rhetorical question? I regard it as irrational every time a nation does something which very clearly is not in its interests. Now you might say certain actions, while clearly not in the interests of the nation, ARE in the interests of the ruling party, and I couldn't really disagree. But it's entirely possible for cold, calculating people to do things which are in their interests behind the scenes, but which result in a nation acting eratically and irrationally, and thus unpredictably.

On what basis is the assumption being made that the Iranian regime will suddenly cast aside the obsession with self-preservation that has characterized its actions for the past decades in favour of nuclear suicide (the inevitable consequence of a nuclear strike against Israel)?

You are assuming you know what their goals and motivations are even though they come from an entirely different culture and extremist religious background. I have stopped trying to asses behaviour for logic when discussing religious zealots. I remind you that the guy who lost the last presidential election - the moderate - once told cheering crowds that the instant Iran got nuclear weapons they must use them on Israel, because even while Iran would be devastated by the counter attack Israel would be destroyed, but the Muslim world, being so much larger and more spread out, would survive.

[Black Dog]

I regard it as irrational every time a nation does something which very clearly is not in its interests.

Iran felt that pursuing nuclear weapons was in its interests. When it wasn't, they stopped. If they decide it is, they could resume. There's a clear pattern there.

But it's entirely possible for cold, calculating people to do things which are in their interests behind the scenes, but which result in a nation acting eratically and irrationally, and thus unpredictably.

You seem to forget the balance these people are walking between playing to the hometown crowd and the geopolitical crowd. For all their bluster at home, Iran has mostly behaved in a calculating fashion, pushing when they can get away with it and pulling back when they get in too deep.

You are assuming you know what their goals and motivations are even though they come from an entirely different culture and extremist religious background.

Cuts both ways, you know.

I remind you that the guy who lost the last presidential election - the moderate - once told cheering crowds that the instant Iran got nuclear weapons they must use them on Israel, because even while Iran would be devastated by the counter attack Israel would be destroyed, but the Muslim world, being so much larger and more spread out, would survive.

Would that be the same guy who has also publicly urged caution with respect to provoking the west and insisted the Iran has no interest in pursuing nuclear arms? Two faces: one for the Iranian public one for the world. You can't credit one voice and dismiss the other.

[Rue]

Because you certainly saw the clerics and the ruling class at the forefront of those human waves. Oh wait: you didn't. They seem quite content to let others die to preserve their rule, but why does anyone assume they are in such arush to see the power base they work so hard to preserve turned into a parking lot?

I would definitely dispute the diagnosis of Iraq as suicidal, but that's a digression. Suffice to say: Iraq =/ Iran. Two different systems of government, two different cultures, two different examples.

rue:

Never defended Iran or its record. I simply asked why people think the Iranian regime is suicidal. That has nothing to do with their treatment of gays, women or dissidents, its sponsorship of terrorism etc etc.

Of course it does B Dog. It demonstrates precisely the kind of suicidal fanaticism that blinds its leaders to the suffering they cause others in the name of moral righteousness. It shoulds they think nothing of destroying their own people-if that is not what suicidal fanactism is what is it? Harmless benevolence?

As we speak the Arab League of Nations has announced its full support for the leader of Sudan.

Right.

I love this selectivity as to who we can poo poo when it comes to human rights violations.

Sorry B Dog your selectivity is about as credible as the Arab League of Nations announcing full support of the President of Sudan or China criticizing Israel while providing military supplies to the soldiers carrying out the genocide in Sudan.

Kind of like that dumb grin on Lindsay's face and how delicately she walks these days.

Isn't it obvious her friend Sam has a pierced tongue?

Edited July 16, 2008 by Rue