Iran Threatens To Attack Tel Aviv...

[White Doors]

Well, you know considering the Topic is 'Iran threatens to attack Tel Aviv' ... I thought I'd stay in the topic. But for your purpose, please replace Israel with any other country out there. I'd sure hate to be pegged as an anti-semite !!!!!

Fine, but it doesn't do any favours for your argument that 'Israel isn't really a democratic country' does it?

I mean, nevermind how preposterous that is on it's own.. I was just countering your reasoning which said:

The birth of Israel was not democratic at all. The locals had no say about where the Jews would make their new home. It was a UN mandate. I am not sure if I can call Israel democratic considering how it was created/born

And I merely stated that if you are going to use that measuring stick for wether a country is 'democratic' or not, then there are no 'democratic' nations on earth. Can you dispute this? yes or no?

If not (as seems to be the case with your non-response to the very issue you raised) why do you only use this measure in regards to Israel? No one else can answer that other than you. If you choose not to, then people may draw their own conclusions.

I am talking about subscribing to the mantra or ideals of the UN

What are the 'mantra's or ideals' of the UN other than what the UN members say that they are?

The US is a founding member of the UN with Veto rights - how can they not 'subscribe' to these 'mantras or ideals'?

[GostHacked]

White Doors

And I merely stated that if you are going to use that measuring stick for wether a country is 'democratic' or not, then there are no 'democratic' nations on earth. Can you dispute this? yes or no?

After some thought, I'd say this is correct. Democracies listen to their people. Since governments do what they want when they want, I cannot clearly say that Canada /US or the UK is democratic. IF they were, you would have seen a national vote/referendum on policies like the War on Terror. You'd have politicians asking for our input. But you don't hear of it.

Democracy is not what we think it is or means.

It is not democratic for a country's government to dupe the population into supporting an idea for reasons other than what is stated.

If not (as seems to be the case with your non-response to the very issue you raised) why do you only use this measure in regards to Israel? No one else can answer that other than you. If you choose not to, then people may draw their own conclusions.

Again, because we are talking about Israel in a thread about Israel. Or are you missing something? I could talk about .... The Phillipenes, but it would not be relevant to this thread. I did not single Israel out, the author of this thread did. I am trying to stay on topic and in context.

What are the 'mantra's or ideals' of the UN other than what the UN members say that they are?

The US is a founding member of the UN with Veto rights - how can they not 'subscribe' to these 'mantras or ideals'?

Yeah the US has used their veto power on almost everything regarding Israel. The UN is used to the advantage of a country or a bunch of countries. Once you consider that not all countries can sit at the UN table, it shows that even the UN is undemocratic.

[White Doors]

Democracy is not what we think it is or means.

au contraire, I know exactly what democracy is. If you have issues about what it means, says so and someone will be happy to clarify for you.

I cannot clearly say that Canada /US or the UK is democratic. IF they were, you would have seen a national vote/referendum on policies like the War on Terror

They did, see US election November 2004. Also, see Canadian election in 2006 and 2004 (? I think)

point is, we have voted on it. Same with the UK.

Once you consider that not all countries can sit at the UN table, it shows that even the UN is undemocratic.

All countries can and do sit at the 'UN table' if they so wish.

I do agree that the UN is undemocratic which I suspect, is the very reason that the US is not willing to be a party to it's creation, the ICC. With what you said here, it is odd that you blame them for this.

Yeah the US has used their veto power on almost everything regarding Israel. The UN is used to the advantage of a country or a bunch of countries

When you have the Arab block almost exclusively using their UN time to try and censor Israel to the exclusion of all others (notably themselves) it makes a mockery of the UN (see Durban conference on racism). The US using their veto to block these inane resolutions is not the problem - it is the fact that they are made in the first place. If the UN wanted to claim to be democratic then they would first have to demand the same from their members, which they do not.

Edited August 5, 2008 by White Doors

[GostHacked]

White Doors

au contraire, I know exactly what democracy is. If you have issues about what it means, says so and someone will be happy to clarify for you.

Democracy means different things to different people. So I can ask about 100 people and many will have different answers to what democracy is. I doubt this will clarify anything.

All countries can and do sit at the 'UN table' if they so wish.

I do agree that the UN is undemocratic which I suspect, is the very reason that the US is not willing to be a party to it's creation, the ICC. With what you said here, it is odd that you blame them for this

Not all of them. After looking into it, the majority of countries are there. They can sit at the table as long as they have all their ducks in a row.

They did, see US election November 2004. Also, see Canadian election in 2006 and 2004 (? I think)

point is, we have voted on it. Same with the UK.

One election is not proof of democracy. Nor is it an endorsement of the platform or ideology. Bush was elected because he was thouhg to be a good guy. IN no way shape or form did people vote for Bush because of a war on terror, (that did not happen untill part way through his term. But then voting for him in 2004 could have been an indication that people wanted war (only after the fact that the US has been in Iraq for over a year at that point.) (well 1/2 of the people did). If the governments wanted to know what we thought and wanted to be democratic, we would have seen invdividual referendums on those topics. But since you don't, and those matters are left to unknown people in the military and top government officials and they decide for us.

I understand we have democraticly elected leaders, but once elected, some of them partake in illegal activity that have sweeping effects. Or many of them just do what they want. Hell, I have seen the House of Commons (Here in canada) quite empty on days when debates on important topics were being discussed. They take more holidays that I do for crying out loud.

The US's policy on Iraq was made by politicians/lobbyists, not by the average citizen.

Your last point on your post is ...

If the UN wanted to claim to be democratic then they would first have to demand the same from their members, which they do not.

I won't take this as an admission that you are agreeing with me. I do not think you wanted this bit there, if so, it blows your whole stance. It is odd to be in a democratic forum like the UN when communist countries like China, and dictatorships like many African countries are represented there.

China is not democratic. If it is, then democracy needs to be redefined.

[White Doors]

Democracy means different things to different people. So I can ask about 100 people and many will have different answers to what democracy is. I doubt this will clarify anything.

And so will the question of what is the meaning of life, consensus is not needed to know that we are, in fact, alive.

Try this:

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy

Pronunciation: \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\

Function: noun

Inflected Form(s): plural de·moc·ra·cies

Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dēmokratia, from dēmos + -kratia -cracy

Date: 1576

1 a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections

2: a political unit that has a democratic government

3capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy— C. M. Roberts>

4: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority

5: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges

link: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Democracy

Not all of them. After looking into it, the majority of countries are there. They can sit at the table as long as they have all their ducks in a row.

ducks in a row? Palestine is not even a country and they sure don't have their 'ducks in a row' and even they have a seat at the UN. What country does not have their 'ducks in a row' for Un membership?

One election is not proof of democracy. Nor is it an endorsement of the platform or ideology. Bush was elected because he was thouhg to be a good guy. IN no way shape or form did people vote for Bush because of a war on terror, (that did not happen untill part way through his term. But then voting for him in 2004 could have been an indication that people wanted war (only after the fact that the US has been in Iraq for over a year at that point.) (well 1/2 of the people did). If the governments wanted to know what we thought and wanted to be democratic, we would have seen invdividual referendums on those topics. But since you don't, and those matters are left to unknown people in the military and top government officials and they decide for us.

I understand we have democraticly elected leaders, but once elected, some of them partake in illegal activity that have sweeping effects. Or many of them just do what they want. Hell, I have seen the House of Commons (Here in canada) quite empty on days when debates on important topics were being discussed. They take more holidays that I do for crying out loud.

The US's policy on Iraq was made by politicians/lobbyists, not by the average citizen.

Distaste of policy is not proof that there is no democracy. It is proof merely that your opinion/philosophy is not shared by the majority.

I won't take this as an admission that you are agreeing with me. I do not think you wanted this bit there, if so, it blows your whole stance. It is odd to be in a democratic forum like the UN when communist countries like China, and dictatorships like many African countries are represented there.

China is not democratic. If it is, then democracy needs to be redefined.

?

The UN is most certainly not democratic. The membership of the majority of it's members are not elected by their populace. You can be a brutal dictator that killed to be in power with the same voice as our elected PM from Canada. What 'stance' of mine is this 'blowing'?

Of course China is not democratic? Are you having trouble following along?

[Rue]

Rue

And Rue .. take it easy on me.

Lol no! Good post. Black Dog can handle himself so can you. The bark is worse then the bite. The more I sound yappy the more fun I am having. Not to worry. At least in writing I can't spit all over you in my zeal to emphasize my points.

Listen where I disagree with you is in suggesting the birth of Israel was not democratic at all. In whose perspective? See that is the point. The paradign or moral assumptions you and BlackDog make about Israel are based in my opinion on your preconceived conceptions as to a particular moral standard you hold Israel and Jews to that I contend is based on your Christian cultural bias that I doubt you are even aware of but for me seems evident and I will try explain why keeping in mind it sounds personal but it is not, not at all. I am just challenging your vision not your intentions motives.

Here is my point. I would argue Israel came about precisely because the Arab world did NOT want to be democratic but instead impose a forced military ultimatum on Jews which was all about being undemocratic and trying to preserve its undemocratic status quo against Jews, i.e., dhimmittude-keeping Jews in their place as second class discriminated citizens in the Middle East and assuring that Muslim theocracy and state remained unchallenged.

Your assumotion is based on Jews suddenly showing up and trying to impose themselves. Its based on your misunderstanding of Jewish history and the assumption just showed up unfairly. You assume because Jews are a minority their right to sufferage is not allowed? Somehow because they are a minority if they demand the essence of democracy-national sufferage, simply because they are a minority they are undemocratic?

How does that make any sense unless of course you are so bias you can't see the contradiction in that?

How xo you twist that around to suggest Jews forming Israel were undemocratic is beyond me. For heaven's sake, they wanted freedom from tyranny and you call that undemocratic?

Undemocractic? Undemocratic is what Jews lived through for centuries in the Muslim world living in the apartheid of dhimmitude which prevails to this day and results in the continuing servitude of not just Jews but Bahaiis, Christians, gays, Zoroastreans, Hindus, Buddists and so on.

Undemocratic is having all one's possessions seized illegally and having them expelled forcing them to flee to Israel. Tell that to the 900,000 kicked out of Muslim countries and prior to that all the Jews of the Muslim world forced to endure massacres or discrimination and never be allowed to own land and be told that since they are infidel they are to not touch a Muslim, and can not be trusted to tell the truth in court, etc.

Undemocratic is being a Jew in Europe and watching country after country refuse to allow you to own land or access public services and be trapped in ghettoes of isolation removed from mainstream society and forced to take on certain jobs because there were no others.

6 million Jews died not because of democracy and you suggest they are undemocratic because after being forcefully exterminated en masse in numbers no other minority was faced with in such a deliberate and systemic manner in such a short period of time they demanded their own country?

After having all their property and everything they ever had reason to live for across Eurpe taken from them you want them to do just what?

Where were you when the Swiss banks refused to return their money and when the few that did try to return home found their homes occupied by good Christians?

Guess democracy for you from your perspective of being in those homes lends you to a different conclusion. I might suggest if you were a Roma you might not have a problem understanding the perspective I am now trying to explain to you. The difference is the Romas don't want a country. That is about it.

In your perspective I do not doubt you see Jews as undemocratic for wanting a country. Why not? Was it your people gassed? Was it your home stolen? Was it you expelled and left with no where to go? Was it you listening to Kossaks or drunken swine coming in the night on any given Christian holiday to burn and rape in the name of Jesus?

Undemocratic? Yah. Pogroms are democratic.

See in my world the legacy of my family is the negative consequence of not being able to be treated democratically. Its a given. That curse never goes away. It is an existential consequence even the most self-loathing of Jews can't hide from by pretending they are Christian or Muslim or what-ever.

As much as I love Canada and consider myself until I die a Canadian first and foremost, what you think being a Jew is not an existential reality that if push comes to shove could not make me expendable? Oh wait, the Charter of Rights you say? Thanks. There was one in Germany you know. Likewise in France. Didn't do much good now did it. Say now why not read The Soviet constitution. Guaranteed a lot of freedom as well but memory serves me correctly anyone stupid enough to say they were a Jew ended up in a great deal of trouble. Have Russian and German legacy in that cursed blood of mine you know.

As much as I love Canada and all it offers, if you think I am naive enough to assume I am safe tell your story to one of your people. Won't resonate with me for the same reason I don't put mayaonaisse and ham on bagels.

You misunderstand and misrepresent why Jews created a country but it doesn't change why Jews did it. We did it to survive. We had no choice. Between the Christian and Muslim worlds we were given no choice.

May I suggest your Christian world and Christian religion legacy of world wide genocide and vitimization of heathen peoples does not provide you a credible vantage point from which to suggest to a Jew they are not democratic or seeking universal sufferage. The whole culture of Christianity and its connection to the state apperatuses it chose to use to rule was anything but democratic and its vestiges remain and for any Christian to lecture anyone on morality for the very sins they continue to commit with due respect is just not credible for me.

See the only difference between you and we Zionists is we do not hide what we are or the fact that we use the state to protect our nationality. It is precisely the result of you doing it and we having no choice but to respond and do the same if we were to survive. No more. No less.

Never once did a Jew who started Israel ever deny the purpose of a Jewish state was to institutionalize in the state organ a perpetual guarantee of survival of Jews. There is nothing undemocratic about that. You Christians have been doing it for centuries.

Say now. Did you notice> When Blackdog's people do it, they call it the resurrection of the Ukraine and when his country creates a law of return for Ukraines does blackdog use the same analogies he uses for Israel with the Ukraine? Why do you think that is?

There are over 85 countries with laws of return for specific nationalities to assure these national identities survive and yet only when Israel does it, we are told by Blackdog or you its unvecoming or undemocratic. Why do you think that is?

Today's Muslim world demands the very things for its people in the West it will not allow non Muslims in the East to have. Why do you think that is? The Muslim collective still demands from Israel that which it will not give its own non Muslims let alone fellow Muslims. Why do you think that is?

The only difference with the Jews of Israel is that they upfront with theur purpose. Theyd on't couch it with selectivity and hippocracy and double standards as I suggest you do.

I would also suggest if you bother to find out how the Israeli law works you would realize it is in fact in practice democratic and affords far more legal rights to non Jews in Israel then any Christian or Muslim ever gave a Jew in their countries and that Sir is public record. Problem is people like Blackdog when they claim Israel is not living up to its democratic standards ignore all its legal decisions and the implication of its court's decisions particularly in regards to land rights of non Jews in Israel.

Easy to say poo poo to Israel when you don't make a point of finding out what its court decisions are saying or realize that unlike the Muslim theocratic world or say now here in Canada where Christianity and the government is still connected thank you very much that Zionism and and the protection of Jews in the Israel state organ does not impose religious or cultural beliefs on non Jews and it is precisely why they have their own family and religious laws and why Muslims have a terrible tendency of beating their wives in Israel but being forgiven by their Muslim family courts. Democracy you say. Right. If you only knew what it means in practice.

Undemocratic? As a lawyer I would agree that the land aquisition transfer process which saw absentee lands in Israel from vacated Palestinians go to Jews who settled in Israel through a series of 25 land laws has serious flaws but it is no more flawed then anything your double standard for Christian and Muslim nations have done. What is that I hear, another self-righteous Christian lecturing Jews on stealing land? Right. Oh wait. Is that a Muslim I hear saying land was stolen? Yes the Muslim world where the average Muslim is allowed to own land and is not a serf to some wealthy magnate. Right.

Perspective. It can be quite subjective if you are some shmuk from Pakistan imported to Dubai or Saudi Arabia to be cheap slave labourer. Right. ask the Fillipina domestic slaves what their land rights are.

As for Muslims and their Empire, do you think even one nation is in the position to discuss morality and the fair distribution of land rights?

Oh but wait, everyone but the Jews of Israel in this equation seem exempt using the BlackDog manual.

How about you?

All the Jews of Israel have done is what everyone else forced to survive has done. They have dug in their heels and clung to their lives and no moral puffing and blowing by you is gonna blow them away.

What holds up the solution in the Middle East today is not Israel being undemocratic. Nonsense. As we write Fatah members fleed to Israel to escape Hamas. Please can you not see the irony in that even if Blackdog can't?

Of course a just solution requires a two state solution. We all know that. what you think I am some bearded fanatic? Try again.

The Jews of Israel did not come from cabbage leaves and magically drop into Israel from storks.

The creation of Israel is not simply the consequence of the holocaust and thousands of years of Christian bullshit, it also comes about from centuries of Muslim dhimmitude bullshit and the same dhimmitude bullshit that the people who accuse Israel of practicing racism about stay silent on and many Muslims try escape from and come to Canada to get away from.

And for the record I am a Zionist out of negative existential consequence, not free choice.

In an ideal world we would not need nationalities or borders.

You don't become a Jew out of choice. You inherit it out of consequence a consequence that in your perspective you accuse of being undemocratic. Yah right. You tell the prisoner he is undemocratic. Hah.

By the way, I hate all humans equally. Can't stand religions or nationalities of any kind.

If I had my way Carla Bruni would run the world.

She's my kind of leader.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Wow Rue.

See it all depends on your perspective. In yours you see Jews as undemocratic. In my world they have been nothing but the negative consequence of not being able to be treated democratically.

I said Israel was undemocratic. I did not say the Jews were undemocratic.

The creation of Israel as much as you stereotype it in your Christian bias tone that is based on the assumption you are a majority who always had a country, it would seem that way. To a Jew the creation of Israel is the ultimate triumph of democracy it is about universal sufferage of a people. It is about a people who said, we will not be exterminated, we will create a national identity and never again be victims of those who will not be democratic-never again.

Actually it is an Athiest/Agnostic tone. I am not Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim ect ect. The creation of Israel was out of preserving the Jewsih traditions/faiths nothing more.

You can misunderstand and misreptesent why Jews created a country but it doesn't change why Jews did it. We did it to survive. We had no choice. Between the Christian and Muslim worlds we were given no choice.

Jews can survive without a country dedicated to their ways of life. There is only one other 'country' on the planet that is based on religion. That is the Vaticant.

Here is another thing. I am very tired of hearing how the Jews are always being vitimized. I have been hearing it for years and years. Ever since I started listening to the news when I was a kid. They are always the victim. ALWAYS.

All the Jews of Israel have done is what everyone else forced to survive has done. They clung to their lives and no they have no place to go and they will not vanish.

The end of the war the Winners (the west and Europe) divided up the Middle East. Then the UN mandate said that the Caliphate must be trashed. With that, it was decided that Israel was to be created in the middle of the former Caliphate. This just sets you up for decades of conflict. Anyone could see this comming.

We could have created Israel anywhere. I am sure we could have set up something in Europe, or even maybe Asia. But that spot where Israel is has signifigance for the Jews. Ancient times .... So, if they just wanted some land to be who they are, they could have done that anywhere on the planet.

And for the record I am a Zionist out of negative existential consequence, not free choice.

I hate all humans equally. Can't stand religions or nationalities.

So you are a self hating Jew?

[Rue]

Hey 'GostHacked' hi. I am responding to your comments which I place in quotes. See you are stilll alive.

"Wow Rue."

When I was young I could make gorgeous women say that for good reasons. Now they say that when they see me struggling to try hold in my stomach and begin choking.

"I said Israel was undemocratic. I did not say the Jews were undemocratic."

Yah I know what you said. I didn't respond stating you said all Jews were undemocratic either-just those who beleive it is their right to have universal sufferage in the form of a state.

"Actually it is an Athiest/Agnostic tone. I am not Christian, Catholic, Jewish, Muslim ect ect."

Actually I apologize. I did not mean to suggest I know what your actual personal religious beliefs are and do not. None of my business. I do respectfully disagree in the sense that find much of what paraphrase in my opinion verbatum to ancient certain Christian ideological approaches to the notion of Judaism as a collective identity and what it perceives as this collective being evil and in need of cleansing/

You stated;

"The creation of Israel was out of preserving the Jewsih traditions/faiths nothing more."

There its comments like that where I could swear you sound like a classic Christian anti-semite. By the way your comment to me reflects a classic Christian bias towards what Jewish means. You may be an atheist but I must ask where do you think you got the above concept from?

The creation of Israel is not simply about preserving Jewish faith or traditions. In case you have not noticed many many Israelis consider themselves Jews in a national sense expressed through the nation of Israel but do not necessarily practice classic Judaism. Being Jewish is not Fiddle on the Roof. Its not just about tradition and faith.

Please. We are not all Zero Mostel dancing in Fiddler on the Roof. Your quaint image of Israel is based on a with due respect ridiculous stereotype.

Israel was came about as an existential response. It is what Jews did to survive as Jews. It is not just about faith or tradition-its about staying alive in a world that does not want you.

You stated;

"Jews can survive without a country dedicated to their ways of life."

Again it is ridiculous for you to make the above comment. Where do you get off assuming you know what is good for Jews and what they need to survive? What perspective do you think that is based on. See you say its atheist-I say its based on the fact you live in a world where you are not a minority so make such presumptions because you do not understand what it means to be a minority with a history of being constantly wiped out by everyone and anyone. Easy for you to lecture. But silly. All you do is reflect your cultural bias of being a majority and assuming everyone is loved just like you.

Perhaps what you need is a little hatred at your perceived physical or cultural or religious beliefs to understand what I am saying. Tell you what, grow a beard, put on a yamacha, walk around like that for a month then get back to me with the above comment.

Yous tated'

" There is only one other 'country' on the planet that is based on religion. That is the Vaticant. "

You are absolutely and utterly wrong. It reflects your complete lack of understanding of Islam and sharia law and how Islam and the state are not seperated. It also reflects your lack of understanding of the role of Hinduism in India, and Buddism in many nations (although technically it could be argued Buiddism is not a religion but a philosophy) or the relationship between the Catholic Church or other Christian sects and ruling governments in many counties.

More to the point it again reflects your lack of understanding as to what Israel and Zionism are about. Israel is not just based on religion. That is precisely why in its constitution it allows Christians and Muslims the exact same religious rights as it does Jews. No its not Islam and Sharia law where the state imposes religious belief. No the state of Israel preserves Jews as a people.

You do something again very typical of Christians and Muslims. You think being a Jew is a religious thing. No its much older then Christianity or Islam so its evolved into a different meaning-religion is only one component of its identity, just one.

You stated;

"Here is another thing. I am very tired of hearing how the Jews are always being vitimized." Perhaps if you stopped lecturing Jews and Israelis about their identity and things you don't understand you won't have to listen to them or me correct you.

Psst. Jews don't convert people like Christians and Muslims. In fact I doubt any Jew has walked up to you and said hey you I am a victim. I think with due respect, you engage in debates about Israel and Jews and then are told by us you are making sweeping statements that are not true.

You state;

" I have been hearing it (Jews are victims) for years and years. Ever since I started listening to the news when I was a kid. They are always the victim. ALWAYS. "

Sounds like you have very selective and bias ears. Interesting how that is all you hear. Tell me now, how long do you think I have had to hear people like you talking about my people the way you do...say now what came first your presumptious comments about Jews and Israelis or me? Tell me are you suggesting the media is dominated by Jews bombarding you with Jew messages? Excuse me if I find your last comment extremely subjective and hard to swallow.

Yous tate;

"The end of the war the Winners (the west and Europe) divided up the Middle East. Then the UN mandate said that the Caliphate must be trashed. With that, it was decided that Israel was to be created in the middle of the former Caliphate. "

Again all the above comment does is reflect your complete and absolute misunderstading of the origins of Israel, Transjordan, and the current conflict. Your simplistic attempt at taking a complex series of political developments that evolved over thousands of years and reduce it to the above is as absurd as you suggesting you are being bombarded by the media and its pro Jew bias.

You stated;

"We could have created Israel anywhere."

Who is we? Where did you learn this patronizing tone of voice from? Excuse me if I believe it is the society you were born into based on an ideology of people who have no clue or make any attempt to understand what Israel is, what Jews are and why you and your ancestors who most certainly were Christian, have no say nor right nor moral basis to assume you will tell Jews what place they must hold. Read back your words. So "we" i.e., presumably the Western Christian world, could do what you say? Put the Jews in their place anywhere you want right? How dare we not know our place and presume to be the masters of our own destiny. Damn uppity Jews. Can they not know their place?

You stated;

"I am sure we could have set up something in Europe, or even maybe Asia."

Oh how Christian of you. Who the f..ck asked you? Tell me now are you that ignorant of history? For someone so sick and tired of hearing how Jews are victims how the hell did you even hear that message if you have no clue that no one in Europe or Asia wanted or wants a Jewish nation in their midst/ Are you being wilfully ignorant?

Say now, I know, lets create a Jewish state in oh the middle of Europe. We can build it on Aushwitz.

You stated;

" But that spot where Israel is has signifigance for the Jews. Ancient times .... So, if they just wanted some land to be who they are, they could have done that anywhere on the planet."

You really do have to make the effort to understand why Jews would choose where they did to create a nation. It was not just based on ancient religious beliefs (although its true that has a lot to do with it) it is also about going back to where Jews first came from.

As for your continued reference to the world being a welcoming place willing to create a nation anywhere from them it agains imply reflects your ignorance of Jewish history and how the world treated Jews and that fits in with your comment that you are sick and tired of hearing about Jews being victims-what you really mean is you shut your mind down and close your mind to the concept of the world not wanting the Jews anywhere and the fact that the Jews were not interested in going anywhere but where they came from.

You asked me;

"So you are a self hating Jew?"

No not at all. I do not hate myself or anyone else for being a Jew. I can't stand everyone equally. Read what I write. I make no apologies for being Jewish or pro Israeli or pro Zionist. I make an apology for being a human though.

I loath my human traits. The Jewish part of me I see no point in loathing. It would make as much sense as me loathing your beliefs and hating you for being an atheist.

I have you precisely because you are a human doing what humans do, claiming to think but using your brain to avoid having to think. Hate myself for the same reasons.

That is why I said I prefer dogs, horses, cats, birds, etc., although I do like the women's beach volley ball players at the olympics and certain women athletes at the olympics, such as those Jamaican runners, some of the divers, that Russian pole vaulter and some of the swimmers.

I am willing to tolerate women. They can be awesome and smell real nice and inspire me to do something other then throw feces at another ape.

I believe any hope for humanity will come from kissing the hand of a woman and holding the door for her.

Other then that I hate humans they bite and pollute.

Edited August 11, 2008 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Rue.,.. the replies are broken so bear with them.

There its comments like that where I could swear you sound like a classic Christian anti-semite. By the way your comment to me reflects a classic Christian bias towards what Jewish means. You may be an atheist but I must ask where do you think you got the above concept from?

Years of observation. I always considered myself an outsider for the most part when it comes to religion. I never grew up with one. I was tought to beleive in myself before anything else. I can see what you mean about Christian views/values. I guess that comes with growing up in a country that has Christianity and Catholosism in the history (Canada).

The creation of Israel is not simply about preserving Jewish faith or traditions. In case you have not noticed many many Israelis consider themselves Jews in a national sense expressed through the nation of Israel but do not necessarily practice classic Judaism. Being Jewish is not Fiddle on the Roof. Its not just about tradition and faith.

If I go by your statement, that Jews are prosecuted worldwide because of their faith, the only place the Jews will feel comfortable is in a place of their own.

Again it is ridiculous for you to make the above comment. Where do you get off assuming you know what is good for Jews and what they need to survive? What perspective do you think that is based on. See you say its atheist-I say its based on the fact you live in a world where you are not a minority so make such presumptions because you do not understand what it means to be a minority with a history of being constantly wiped out by everyone and anyone. Easy for you to lecture.

Every minority is claiming being a vitcim and persecuted worldwide. I will tell you I am a minority. In the sense that I have never tagged along with the main crowd. I had never felt the urge to conform to a certain ruleset or mindset. I was more or less of a loner in high school. I have a small group of friends. I am definatlely not in any majority, other than the colour of my skin. caucasian.

I have heard about the Jews ever since I could remember. My Opa was fighting for the Germans in WWII. He complained alot about the war and certain groupd of people, but he never really mentioned the Jews. The French he very much vocaly dislikes. I got tired of hearing him complain, and at the same time, I guess I grew tired of hearing the Jews always claiming the victim.

Perhaps what you need is a little hatred at your perceived physical or cultural or religious beliefs to understand what I am saying. Tell you what, grow a beard, put on a yamacha, walk around like that for a month then get back to me with the above comment.

Walk a mile in someone elses shoes?? No thanks, mine are working just fine. I do not need to put on a yamacha, or any other religious attire. I just simply do not subscribe to any religion. It is not me, I would not do it. Plus, all the real genuine jews would rip me a new one for putting on a yamacha when I have no beleif in it.

More to the point it again reflects your lack of understanding as to what Israel and Zionism are about. Israel is not just based on religion. That is precisely why in its constitution it allows Christians and Muslims the exact same religious rights as it does Jews. No its not Islam and Sharia law where the state imposes religious belief. No the state of Israel preserves Jews as a people.

But you said they do not need a country to survive? And you state it is for existential purposes. This is why I make the claim that the Jews NEEDED this country to survive. If they felt there was no need, Isreal would not exist. I'll stand by my argument for now.

You do something again very typical of Christians and Muslims. You think being a Jew is a religious thing. No its much older then Christianity or Islam so its evolved into a different meaning-religion is only one component of its identity, just one.

Being a Jew is not a religious thing? I guess that is new to me.

I hate you precisely because you are a human doing what humans do, claiming to think but using your brain to avoid having to think. Hate myself for the same reasons.

I don't hate myself because I am human. I don't hate myself at all. I am very proud and happy to be me and who I am. I have never needed religion to define who and what I am. I make no apologies about that.

You have an internal struggle. Be human, or be jewish. This internal struggle is something I don't understand when it comes to religion.

As for your continued reference to the world being a welcoming place willing to create a nation anywhere from them it agains imply reflects your ignorance of Jewish history and how the world treated Jews and that fits in with your comment that you are sick and tired of hearing about Jews being victims-what you really mean is you shut your mind down and close your mind to the concept of the world not wanting the Jews anywhere and the fact that the Jews were not interested in going anywhere but where they came from.

I am confused now. Isreal is not needed, but needed to survive??

[White Doors]

Jewish is also an ethnicity for those that aren't aware...

[M.Dancer]

Jewish is also an ethnicity for those that aren't aware...

Not a very cut and dried ethnicity....have you ever heard someone described as an ethnic jew?

Now don't get me wrong, I know that the Cohen can trace through DNA their line back 1000's of years and ethnically, jews are semites, but with 2500 years since the babylonian captivity and 2000 of the diaspora, Sephardic, Askenazian, Falasha branches and intermarrying have made Jewishness more of a multicultural (jewish) creed ....

[White Doors]

Not a very cut and dried ethnicity....have you ever heard someone described as an ethnic jew?

Now don't get me wrong, I know that the Cohen can trace through DNA their line back 1000's of years and ethnically, jews are semites, but with 2500 years since the babylonian captivity and 2000 of the diaspora, Sephardic, Askenazian, Falasha branches and intermarrying have made Jewishness more of a multicultural (jewish) creed ....

granted, point being being Jewish is more than going to a synagogue and being a 'believer'

[Rue]

Rue.,.. the replies are broken so bear with them.

You have an internal struggle. Be human, or be jewish. This internal struggle is something I don't understand when it comes to religion.

I am confused now. Isreal is not needed, but needed to survive??

I really appreciate you reading my responses and taking the time to converse with me. Thank you. You are a genuine guy making a strong effort to try understand me and I admit I am a very intense guy on this subject and appreciate your efforts.

Yes what I said is confusing. I am deliberate when I say that it is intentionally confusing. Yes would argue I have a very real human struggle and internal struggle and you know exactly why. You aren't actually confused about the fact I am saying I am confused!

My belief in the need for a Jewish state I am the first to admit is based on existential struggle. In an ideal world no one would need a state. I concede that. As "intellects" you and I both know at one level all states and all nationalities in one sense are just tribal names and create artificial distinctions.

So you see yes for me being Jewish is of course at times a contradiction and to me me it is a responsibility I must honour not something I actively chose. I didn't convert to it. I was born into it. So yes believe it or not for many of us Jews its not religion that makes us Jewish its the common history of the past that we feel obliged to honour.

Hell I hate all organzied religions for the same reasons. For me being a Jew is an existential responsibility. Because it killed so many who died so I would be free, I can't ever forget that. But it doesn't mean I want Palestinians killed or to hate Christians or Muslims or anyone else. Shit no.

Part of me is very proud of my Jewish legacy but of course there are parts of Jewish history I don't like. I am not partial to slewings and tribal wars or the concept of an angry God which is much of the religions stories in the Old Testament.

My vision of God is not mainstream Judaism. It is one of an abstract thing behind everything that has no personal connect to you and me because it deliberately send us from it to create our own destinies and it can't interfere. That is as religious as I get either that or telling you I believe fractal theory or the speed of light makes the most sense to me in terms of religious doctrine to prove a God exists. But that is just my personal opinions like your being an atheist.

But its why I say yes it is possible for me to be a Jew as an existential consequence and honour it that way but not necessarily by confirming to its mainstream religious doctrines. I am more at home with Taoism or Buddism or Spinoza then visions of God slewing things.

More to the point even if I wanted to assimilate and deny who I was and loath myself I would never do it-too many people died so I could be a free Jew and free Canadian and it is precisely why I am a Canadian first, Jew second and human third although I think its all bullshit and wish it didn't have to be that way and like I said in an ideal world, people would not have had to die for me. But since they did, I can't disrespect their dying for me.

Israel to me is simply a democratic expression of survival for Jews but it was never meant to exclude Palestinians from having their own nation or telling anyone else we are superior. The people who try suggest we Zionists feel we are superior and chosen are full of shit. Its not what Israel means. Israel and Zionism recognize all religions and seperate them from the state in terms of the right to worship them. The part of Jewishness the state is designed to assure can never be wiped out again is the national expression through Israeli citizenship. I know its complicated to understand but its why many Jewish Israelis are not religious at all but are Jews and Israelis.

So yah its confusing what I tell you because I am not typical of Jews who would have more mainstream thoughts about the actual religious part, but I am similiar to those Jews who believe Israel is a necessity for us.

Its confusing to you of course, because Jewish is not as I said just people who follow the religion like converts, its people like me who were born into the legacy and connected to it because of the deaths of our ancestors and grandparents and great grandparents.

I hope that explaisn it.

By the way one of the things I do is take in summer students from Germany and Austria. I have done it for some time. I do it on purpose so the next generation sees me as a Canadian, a Jew and as a human and it breaks the cycle of fear of Austrians and Germans I would otherwise have.

Its my way of talking to the next generation and trying to explain to them they should know what happened to Jews in Germany not just because it happened to us but because it is happening again in Sudan, etc. and when push comes to shove, by being Canadian and a Jew are very important, but weez all human and that is the part they can identify with.

Also just for your curiousity, if I did not think in my mind beyond any doubt its Canada first, Jew second, human third, I would go to Israel. I am proud to be Canadian and everything it has allowed me to be as a human and a Jew so I will be damned if it does not always come first. But again on another level, I know we are all just humans and I do not want to use these distinctions to hate people, just to make it more easier to respect them.

People like me like Israelis and pro Israeli supporters no Israel has made mistakes and has challenges. We do not paint the country as perfect. We just defend it though when we think the criticism being levelled at it is not being equally applied to the other parties.

Thank you for your patience. I appreciate that.

Edited August 12, 2008 by Rue

[GostHacked]

Rue,

Observation:

You seem to be at a tipping point. To me you are very close to shrugging off the religious coil simply because you have outgrown the confines of the religion. The restricted vision of being a Jew no longer works for you. Your other option as a humanist does not seem to work for you as well.

Yes I have a very real human struggle and internal struggle and you know exactly why. My belief in the need for a Jewish state I am the first to admit is based on existential struggle. In an ideal world no one would need a state, As "intellects" we both know all states and all nationalities in one sense are just tribal names and create artificial distinctions. Hell I know that on one level as you do.

It really seems to me now that if Israel was not created, the Jews would be a lost tribe. They found unity, but it was at the expense of others. Something the Jews did not want to have anyone repeat since the Holocaust. To me this is where places of worship com in. A church/mosque/synagoge have birds of the same feather. There they can feel united and connected. They would not feel lost. But there was this longing, urge to get back to Jerusalem. However I think the initial goal is noble, but how it was carried out, far from nobel. And it is still at the expense of others. Isreal, since it's inception has surived at the expense of others.

I don't hate religion. It is good for the most part. However there are those higher ups that can and do screw things for the ones who are being genuine with the faith.

But how long can you hear about the persecution of the Jews before it really really gets tiring. I mean, it happened thousands of years ago. But the Jews are STILL whining about it. Even now that they have Israel, they are STILL whining about it.

You are uncommon as a person. You are also very passionate as a person, as you have no problems saying what you want and mean. Respect yo.

Its my way of talking to the next generation and trying to explain to them they should know what happened to Jews in Germany not just because it happened to us but because it is happening again in Sudan, etc. That is all.

I am guessing you are talking about genocide. And not specifically about jews being genocided.

Once I shrugged off the religious coil (wasn't much there to begin with) I found myself in a very small minority group. I stood on the other side of all religions. This was kind of odd and scary at first. Society wants me to conform to those tradidtions. I also found myself in a better more relaxed and more enlightened state of mind.

After my Oma's death last year, I found out she was a very religious person. I really do not know what faith she followed, however she held God close to her. She never openly discussed her faith and beleifs. One, I never asked , because I never knew. Now I have all sorts of questions that might possibly go unanswered. What I do know is that it was personal to her and no one else. She had faith and confidence in it ,so as she never had to talk about it.

Alright so we have detracted from the main topic points.

[Rue]

To respond further to your comments Ghost;

"You seem to be at a tipping point. To me you are very close to shrugging off the religious coil simply because you have outgrown the confines of the religion. "

I shrugged of the religious coil long ago and there was no tipping point or crisis or melodrama.

You stated;

"But how long can you hear about the persecution of the Jews before it really really gets tiring. I mean, it happened thousands of years ago. But the Jews are STILL whining about it. Even now that they have Israel, they are STILL whining about it. "

The reason you hear about it is because you not I bring it up every time you restate the Middle East conflict as simply being unfair to Palestinians and no one else. Its said in response to you. Stop questioning the right of Jews having a country and I promise you won't hear a thing from us. Keep accusing us of being unfair for wanting universal sufferage and telling us we should ignore the thousands of years of what Christians and Muslims did to us and pretend it did not happen, and you will get a mouthful.

You stated;

"You are uncommon as a person. You are also very passionate as a person, as you have no problems saying what you want and mean. Respect yo."

Thanks a lot. I appreciate your being able not to take my intensity personally and to understand I know I am full of contradictions and weaknesses and am willing to be honest with you about it. Much of my opinions come not from idealism unfortunately but existential consequence. I am trying on one level to turn the negative to positive. I sound more cynical and negative then I am about this shit.

"I am guessing you are talking about genocide. And not specifically about jews being genocided."

Yes. In the case of we Jews we want the world to remember the holocaust is unique in how it was able to focus on us Jews in such a concentrated time period and kill so large a percentage of us by ordinary people being willing to collaborate in many countries. But this does not mean when we say that and want people to never forget this it is because we think other genocides are not as important. Each one is unique and should have its own name and be respected equally but what I will argue until doomsday is we can not take these genocides and lump them in one generic category because that makes them all easier to forget and repeat again.

When I discuss genocides in Sudan, Cambodia, Rwanda-Burundi, I do not discuss them as moral pissing matches as to whose genocide was worse. They all stink. The Ukrainian massacre for example is often pitted against the holocaust in a pissing match. I have seen people go so far as to say Jews are responsible for it because they were in the communist party and helped Stalin. Its absurd. Ukrainians collaborated with Nazis in the holocaust. Jews denounced their Jewishness and joined the communist party of Stalin and colaborated with him. This does not mean a damn thing. It doesn't change the holocaust or what happened to Ukrainians and it does not justify putting down the holocaust as unique or saying because Ukrainians assisted the Nazis they deserved to have Stalin starve them to death, etc. Its all bull.

It is also bull in the Palestinian conflict for Palestinians to portray themselves as the only victims and all their problems were caused by Zionists. That is pure b.s. The Arab League of Nations had the option of peaceful settlement and resolution and chose instead to force the issue forcing Israel to come into existence by war. It was the Arab League not Israel who deliberately created Palestinian refugees as a political tool.

To revise history and ignore what the Arab League did and what the role of the Mufti of Jerusalem was is b.s.

Israeli policies have exasperated the problem no doubt. But they did not create it as you suggest they did. To suggest a Jewish state made up of less then 2% of all the Middle East could not be accommodated byt e Arab world is absolute b.s. and to pretend it did not come about because of Muslim sharia law and religious beliefs that Jews have no right to land or citizenship unless they become Muslims is also b.s. I didn't create Islam or dhimmitude nor did any other Jew.

Nor did we Jews define ourselves as infidel or cursed Christ killers. The so called peace loving Christians and holders of the only truth, Muslims did that and its precisely why I hate religions. For me it has given people the right to rape and kill and be savage and in particular to my people. So I despise it for that reason and I despise it when I see my people using religion to do the same thing.

You stated;

After my Oma's death last year, I found out she was a very religious person. I really do not know what faith she followed, however she held God close to her. She never openly discussed her faith and beleifs. One, I never asked , because I never knew. Now I have all sorts of questions that might possibly go unanswered. What I do know is that it was personal to her and no one else. She had faith and confidence in it ,so as she never had to talk about it. "

People with faith as you say and I agree exactly do not need to go around talking about it. Words are bullshit. Words mean nothing. Its our actions that say everything. Its how we live, how we conduct ourselves. That is why I spit venom with my words, but in real life I am not as venemos or as angry as I sound. I know better. I don't go around talking about my religious beliefs. First off they are my private business. Secondly they are insane and I would not want to frighten people or for that matter make them laugh hysterically. Lol.

The only thing I will really lecture people on seriously is that humans are conflicted and everything we do is about struggling to repress our savage behaviour and to do that we need to use logic and reason and resist our primal instinct to fling poo and bananas at one another.

You state;

"Alright so we have detracted from the main topic points."

Actually no. The point was and remains, in the Middle East conflict, are two conflicted parties both with existential despair and both fighting to exist, neither right or wrong, both doomed if they can't find a way to use reason and logic to pull themselves out of the poo flinging and for that matter learn to ignore well meaning people like you who have no idea that you are fueling the conflict by thinking you should cheer one side on more then the other. There is nothing to cheer. Don't sit down in the spectator's arena and scream for one side is what I say. Boycott the cock fight. The best way to defuse a cock fight is to assure it has no audience that will feed its frenzy like gasoline to a fire.