Tories new attack ads on carbon tax

[myata]

OK, pretty much everybody must be already well versed on Harpers' approach to any policy challenge:

#1 throw dirt at anybody with a fresh idea or an alternative solution;

#2 pump out unrealistic ads about own would be achievements (usually to be realized in a few generations' timeframe)

#3 do nothing (of substance) here and now.

Here's a fine example. Tory are already well on record pumping hot air at Quebec-Ontario joint emissions trade programme. Here (Carbon tax story - CTV) they are back in their familiar territory of throwing dirt (who cares about factual correctness, right?) at Dion.

All that with absolute zero, nada, nul to show for any strategy, policy, solution of their own. Anything that could result in an actual reduction of carbon emissions.

That must be the new way of leadership. Big on (loudmouth) talk, nowhere to be found / no comments on the result. The cheap and the tawdry.

[Argus]

OK, pretty much everybody must be already well versed on Harpers' approach to any policy challenge:

#1 throw dirt at anybody with a fresh idea or an alternative solution;

If by "policy challenge" you mean "stupid idea" then I see nothing wrong with him pointing out how dumb the idea is.

#2 pump out unrealistic ads about own would be achievements (usually to be realized in a few generations' timeframe)

Can you name me any government at the federal or provincial level over the past 50 years which has not touted all its programs and policies as the solution to all our ills? For that matter, remember one Paul Martin who stated that health care funding and provision issues had been "solved for a generation"?

#3 do nothing (of substance) here and now.

Well, that was the Liberal policy for their entire thirteen years in office and you never complained about it then. So why does it bother you now? At the very least the Tory program will deliver better than the Liberals.

Here's a fine example. Tory are already well on record pumping hot air at Quebec-Ontario joint emissions trade programme. Here

The one which has very vague descriptions about what punishments and caps will be and what will be expected to come out of it (other than hot air)? There is a lot worth making fun of there, especially given the fact the worst carbon emissions entities are the Ontario government run coal fired generating plants McGuinty promised us two elections ago would be closed down by now. He STILL has no plans in place to replace the power they generate - a prerequisite for actually closing them down. And I submit this, more than pompous statements before the media, demonstrates his absolute lack of concern with carbon emissions as anything other than a cheap, vote-getting ploy.

I mean, if he actually cared, then Ontario would even now be building something; clean coal, hydro, nuclear, something, to replace those coal fired generating stations. But no shovels are in the ground. No plans are even in place for new generating stations.

[Riverwind]

All that with absolute zero, nada, nul to show for any strategy, policy, solution of their own. Anything that could result in an actual reduction of carbon emissions.

1) CO2 emissions in Canada will not come down unless either the economy tanks or the population starts to shrink.

Politicians with "plans" that claim to reduce emissions without significant economic consequences are either lying or deluded.

2) CO2 is an imaginary problem that is likely to be discredited in the next 10 years.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Riverwind

[sharkman]

Myata, in posting a comment on the Tories, you forgot your usual green faced icon, so I thought I'd fix that for you. Good on you, though, for at least providing a nice Tory knee jerk.

In addressing the carbon tax revenue stream, lets for a moment look at the big picture, shall we? Oil has about doubled in price over the last year. Gas in Canada has gone up about 40 cents or 40% since January. Other energy costs have also grown as has housing in many places across Canada. So this all means that disposable income has shrunk as these inflationary forces have made it tougher to make ends meet.

We have already passed carbon tax legislation in BC and it will be added to the price of gas. This is the worst possible thing the Liberal government could do to the gas situation in BC, and it's all done to modify behaviour, as Mike DeYong has recently said. Huh? I'd like to think that the previous FORTY PERCENT RISE IN GAS PRICES has greatly modified behaviour. This carbon tax will only worsen inflation, and the only reason they are getting away with it right now is our economy is booming. Once it slows down, and the carbon tax increases, people will really start to hurt.

When a politician says anything like it will be revenue neutral, or it will not affect the tax payer, you can automatically know he/she is talking out their ass. The bottom line is we do not need any more behaviour modification in Canada, which is what a carbon tax is supposed to do. For certain sure, Ontario is having truck plant after truck plant close because of the change in behaviour already occurring. Adding a carbon tax to our economy would kill more jobs faster and force a Dion government to bail out industry after industry. The market will reach a new equilibrium by itself as the cost of fuel modifies behaviour.

[TOhasCLASS]

Totally agree ....... How can the CPC actually run this country when they are constantly acting as if they are still running an election campaign. Since day 1 it has been all bluster with no substance. Truth is the current government has very little to offer us Canadians in the way of leadership, ideas, intelligent political policy making. There seems to be no substance to this current government ... they see the only way to hold onto power is to attack the oppostion parties as if they were sitting in the leadership seats.

Reeks of insecurity ..... Harper - "Dalton, Dion, Jack, Gilles are bad ... why won't you listen to us ! ... Daddy make them listen, make them understand that we are right and they should blindly follow"

As long as the people "sorry sheep" are happy with a government who does absolutely nothing substantial to improve this country, I guess we better get used to the "30 second sound bite generation & the I am too comfortable, lazy and short of time boomers" to use their vote to employ the best and the brightest "excuse makers and not my faulters" to run this great land

The Liberals should come out with an X-Box game or sitcom to lure these people to vote for them .... Note: don't make the game too complex or the sitcom too long

[eyeball]

2) CO2 is an imaginary problem that is likely to be discredited in the next 10 years.

Or it will prove to be a very real problem and possibly be far worse than believed.

1) CO2 emissions in Canada will not come down unless either the economy tanks or the population starts to shrink.

Ironically, if you're wrong about your second point your first will be more like a prediction, after the fact that is.

Politicians with "plans" that claim to reduce emissions without significant economic consequences are either lying or deluded.

Actually, they're just being political.

[Topaz]

IF you are tied to the gas and oil sector in any way, you won't do anything to hurt them. I did a little research today to find out, if I could, why the gas prices were so high. OPEC does not regulate the prices of oil what does are the is the oil exchanges in singapore, new york, london paris and the us energy information administration. Many countries have already introduced heavy taxes on oil products and the price of gas is 3x-4x higher than the price of original crude oil. Taxes account for 70% of the final price of oil products. So when Harper said there was nothing he could do, he was lying. As far as the carbon tax, I think those industries should be tax, with the worse of them tax the most and the money gotten from this tax should go half to the environment., like planting more trees etc. and the other have going to Canadians to help them if these industries up their cost, like the gasoline, natural gas, hydro etc. IF the Libs did this, then that would be the end of fear-mongering of the Cons!

[scribblet]

If Dion thinks his 'tax everything' plan will will win votes and influence people he's wrong - Dion's insistence on a Green Tax on top of our allready ridiculous gas and heating fuel prices could isn't likely to win an election.

If indeed people like Iggy, and Rae, really do think that bringing down this parliament with their obvious lack of credibility, financial, and policy weaknesses is a plan, then they can go for it... I just hope it's the fall and not the summer, who wants to waste time on elections during good weather.

.

http://www.willyoubetricked.ca/

[eyeball]

The trouble is, Liberals are tied to the gas and oil sector too so...

[eyeball]

who wants to waste time on elections during good weather.

Especially when you can have an election during cold weather...when the heating bills start adding up.

[Alta4ever]

Totally agree ....... How can the CPC actually run this country when they are constantly acting as if they are still running an election campaign. Since day 1 it has been all bluster with no substance. Truth is the current government has very little to offer us Canadians in the way of leadership, ideas, intelligent political policy making. There seems to be no substance to this current government ... they see the only way to hold onto power is to attack the oppostion parties as if they were sitting in the leadership seats.

Reeks of insecurity ..... Harper - "Dalton, Dion, Jack, Gilles are bad ... why won't you listen to us ! ... Daddy make them listen, make them understand that we are right and they should blindly follow"

As long as the people "sorry sheep" are happy with a government who does absolutely nothing substantial to improve this country, I guess we better get used to the "30 second sound bite generation & the I am too comfortable, lazy and short of time boomers" to use their vote to employ the best and the brightest "excuse makers and not my faulters" to run this great land

The Liberals should come out with an X-Box game or sitcom to lure these people to vote for them .... Note: don't make the game too complex or the sitcom too long

Very funny post the CPC government has put through more legislation in a minority government, then past government did with a majority over 13 years.

[Riverwind]

Or it will prove to be a very real problem and possibly be far worse than believed.

Possibly. But not very likely given the inconsistency between the actual data and the various alarmist predictions made by IPCC. I see a lot of similarities between the CO2 hysteria and the Saddam-has-WMD hysteria in 2002-2003. In both cases politicians looked only at information that supported their preconceptions, assumed the information was reliable and then used that flawed/biased information to bully other politicians into accepting unreliable information as fact. The billions pissed away hunting for Saddam's WMD will be insignificant compared to the trillions pissed away trying to 'stop' CO2 emissions. Edited June 9, 2008 by Riverwind

[jdobbin]

Very funny post the CPC government has put through more legislation in a minority government, then past government did with a majority over 13 years.

Citation?

[jdobbin]

If Dion thinks his 'tax everything' plan will will win votes and influence people he's wrong - Dion's insistence on a Green Tax on top of our allready ridiculous gas and heating fuel prices could isn't likely to win an election.

And the Tory plan will be done without any costs?

[jdobbin]

Possibly. But not very likely given the inconsistency between the actual data and the various alarmist predictions made by IPCC. I see a lot of similarities between the CO2 hysteria and the Saddam-has-WMD hysteria in 2002-2003. In both cases politicians looked only at information that supported their preconceptions, assumed the information was reliable and then used that flawed/biased information to bully other politicians into accepting unreliable information as fact.

But you will vote Tory anyway even though their tax the polluters program will still pass on the costs to the consumers.

[August1991]

If Dion thinks his 'tax everything' plan will will win votes and influence people he's wrong - Dion's insistence on a Green Tax on top of our allready ridiculous gas and heating fuel prices could isn't likely to win an election.

Exactly.

In Quebec, the tax on a litre of gasoline is about 40 cents. That's more than enough "carbon tax".

First, this is just more evidence that the Liberals are "tax and spend".

Second, this is just more evidence that Dion is totally out of touch with ordinary Canadians. Let Dion run on his "gasoline carbon tax" idea when gasoline prices are at historic highs. We'll see what happens.

----

Dobbin, sorry to be partisan but if Harper proposed such a tax, you and Cherniak and every Liberal in the country would be kicking him on the ground.

I see a lot of similarities between the CO2 hysteria and the Saddam-has-WMD hysteria in 2002-2003. In both cases politicians looked only at information that supported their preconceptions, assumed the information was reliable and then used that flawed/biased information to bully other politicians into accepting unreliable information as fact. The billions pissed away hunting for Saddam's WMD will be insignificant compared to the trillions pissed away trying to 'stop' CO2 emissions.

Sorry for the potential thread drift. Perhaps we should take this idea to another thread.

I too have been surprised how the Left has adopted "climate change" as the great danger facing Western Civilization whereas the Right has adopted "Terrorism" as the great danger. In either case, we're all threatened with doom unless we support the cause.

IMV, 10, 20 or even 50 years in the life of a planet is meaningless. We have time to understand better man-made climate problems.

The threat of terrorists is different. A few idiots can kill thousands if not millions and provoke absolute mayhem for the world. Looking at recent history, this is a very real threat.

----

So, sorry if I side with the Right on this decision of risk assessment. In addition, the Left has a modern reputation of "hating the West". One reason the Left paints "climate change" as a great threat is because solving climate change means bringing the West down a notch. That argument is bound to lose resonance with Westerners.

Edited June 9, 2008 by August1991

[eyeball]

Possibly. But not very likely given the inconsistency between the actual data and the various alarmist predictions made by IPCC. I see a lot of similarities between the CO2 hysteria and the Saddam-has-WMD hysteria in 2002-2003. In both cases politicians looked only at information that supported their preconceptions, assumed the information was reliable and then used that flawed/biased information to bully other politicians into accepting unreliable information as fact. The billions pissed away hunting for Saddam's WMD will be insignificant compared to the trillions pissed away trying to 'stop' CO2 emissions.

I know exactly how you feel.

I see a lot of inconsistencies between the levels of skepticism it takes to have an effect on different public policies. In the case of GW theories its only taken a very small amount of doubt to have a great effect on public policies on climate change. The theories underlying public policies on the economy however seem impervious to very large amounts of doubt and skepticism, resulting in no effect whatsoever on our economic policies.

It should be no surprise that deniers of AGW also happen to be the biggest adherents of the Church of Global Economic Theory (or GET as in GET yours while you can). All the same criticism of the Church of GW exist. Economic researchers in the Church of GET skew their data to fit their theories, researchers who study alternative theories receive no respect or funding so of course they only study the things that bolster the prevailing dogma.

I see a lot of inconsistency between the rosy economic performance being reported by the Holy Church of GET and my household budget.

Imagine how the cases of Saddam, the economy or the environment might have unfolded if there was some sort of standard by which evidence could be weighed and used as the basis for public policies. If the sciences of climatology, economics and politics are any indication we might as well be using chicken-guts to determine our best course of action.

[Argus]

Totally agree ....... How can the CPC actually run this country when they are constantly acting as if they are still running an election campaign

All parties have been acting the same way. That's normal in a minority government which could dissolve at any time.

Odd... that you haven't noticed this about the other parties.

. Since day 1 it has been all bluster with no substance.

On the contrary, there have been a number of very good policy initiatives and bills, the latest of which is the immigration reform bill which will be passed tonight.

Odd... that you haven't noticed that there has been nothing, no proposals from the opposition but bluster with no substance.

Truth is the current government has very little to offer us Canadians in the way of leadership, ideas, intelligent political policy making.

Would you like to enlighten us regarding the "leadership" being provided by the opposition? Not to mention the "intelligent political policy and ideas" because I haven't actually seen any of those out of the opposition for quite some time.

Reeks of insecurity ..... Harper - "Dalton, Dion, Jack, Gilles are bad ... why won't you listen to us ! ... Daddy make them listen, make them understand that we are right and they should blindly follow"

Odd... that you don't seem to realize that you've just neatly summarized your entire post and all your whiny complaints about the Tories.

[Argus]

But you will vote Tory anyway even though their tax the polluters program will still pass on the costs to the consumers.

I think pollution is a real problem. I don't mind the government tackling it. If only your party had done more than make mouth noises for the past 13 years. But then, they still have no clearly defined policy on the environment.

As for carbon reduction, I'm not nearly as convinced that this is doable, much less that it will actually accomplish anything substantial if we do actually reduce emissions.

[BubberMiley]

As for carbon reduction, I'm not nearly as convinced that this is doable, much less that it will actually accomplish anything substantial if we do actually reduce emissions.

And no amount of evidence could ever make you change your mind.

[eyeball]

There's actually evidence that suggests pollution is offsetting the damage that CO2 is causing.

[BubberMiley]

There's actually evidence that suggests pollution is offsetting the damage that CO2 is causing.

There's evidence the moon is made of cheese but without citation it doesn't amount to much.

[jdobbin]

In Quebec, the tax on a litre of gasoline is about 40 cents. That's more than enough "carbon tax".

This tax won't effect gas prices. A number of analysts said the Tory plan to punish polluters will likely end up in 40 cents a litre increase.

First, this is just more evidence that the Liberals are "tax and spend".

The ones spending are the Tories. And their punish the polluters will hit people in the gas tank even heavier and they are not even proposing another income tax cut.

Second, this is just more evidence that Dion is totally out of touch with ordinary Canadians. Let Dion run on his "gasoline carbon tax" idea when gasoline prices are at historic highs. We'll see what happens.

Dobbin, sorry to be partisan but if Harper proposed such a tax, you and Cherniak and every Liberal in the country would be kicking him on the ground.

I supported Mulroney and his environmental program 100%. Only your comments are partisan.

[Remiel]

I wonder how much the Conservatives did not pay the gas retailers to put up those advertisements at the pumps.

And I have to disagree with your risk assessment, August. Terrorists are not a first tier threat to global (or national) well being. Environmental degredation is.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Remiel

[jdobbin]

I think pollution is a real problem. I don't mind the government tackling it. If only your party had done more than make mouth noises for the past 13 years. But then, they still have no clearly defined policy on the environment.

I agree. The Muloney program on the environment was far superior. Chretien was not interested much in the subject. I think Martin was a bit better but that the environment was one of several initiatives and just didn't gain much traction until near the end.

Having said that, I am not convinced that the Harper government is anywhere near committed as previous governments on things like pollution or carbon emissions.

If they do go ahead with their punishing polluters, the potential gas increases according to some experts are likely to be about a 40 cent increase at the pumps.

As for carbon reduction, I'm not nearly as convinced that this is doable, much less that it will actually accomplish anything substantial if we do actually reduce emissions.

I know that the Tories still doubt the science. I expect if they get their majority they will abandon their program.