Steyn on the future of Western society

Black Dog · June 2, 2008

I do not regard the bloggers' comments as the "worst form of racial stereotyping" or "their demonization of an entire culture".

So why would you say this:

While the bloggers' imaginations are vivid and perhaps almost psychotic...

?

any similar resemblances to crosses, bibles or the Jewish star depicted in the Arab world, trust me, would result in a fate far worse than the removal of an advertisement. The Muslims are a culture that cannot and will not live at peace with the West.

So hysterical denunciations of corporations due to their spokespersons' sartorial choices are okay because bad stuff happens in other societies? If not, what's your point in juxtaposing the two? What does one have to do with the other at all?

HisSelf · June 3, 2008

The Ray thing was a case of somebody preying on western ignorance of Arab culture. As another poster has pointed out here, the keffiyeh is as common in the Arab world as a baseball hat here. Arafat's trademark was not the keffiyeh itself, but the idiosyncratic way he arranged it to vaguely resemble a map of Palestine. I always thought it looked like Donald Trump's comb-over LOL.

guyser · June 3, 2008

The Ray thing was a case of somebody preying on western ignorance of Arab culture.

Michele Malkin. She probably isnt ignorant of it, just she thought her readers would be. Her and that man Ann Coulter are funny that way.

DogOnPorch · June 5, 2008

MacLeans' blog on the tribunal....

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I'm a lumberjack and I'm OK...

---Monty Python

Edited June 5, 2008 by DogOnPorch

August1991 · June 5, 2008

Well, I think the issue as it relates to Europe is an overreaction. If the Muslims in Europe are allowed to integrate into the economy, birth rates will probably fall as quality of life rises. European birthrates will probably go back on the upswing (to a degree) at some point, though that is governed by a number of factors. If things really get " that " bad, immigration from the Middle East will probably be cut off and they will start using whatever excuse they can to deport people. The worst case scenario is, of course, that one day there is another war and a lot of people get ethnically cleansed. So, ultimately, I think that scaring people into thinking that Europe is going to be taken over by Muslims... just does not fit a reasonable projection of the possibilities.

Remiel, you touch several key points.

Steyn's argument turns critically on demographics and demographics is the statistical graveyard of the neophytes.

Who knows what couples in 10 years, let alone 20 years, will decide to do. If I were in New France in 1760, I would have predicted an abysmal future. There were only 60,000. How many Jews were alive in 1920?

I have been in Europe for the past few days (now in Russia) and Steyn's basic premise that Europe (and Russia in particular) are in a "demographic death spiral" is simply facile. In the 1930s in the West, birth rates plummeted. Less than 20 years later, there was a baby boom. Western predictions of Russia have a history of inaccuracy.

IMV, Steyn is correct to draw reference to the "clash of civilizations". We in the West must decide what constitute our basic values. Galileo faced a society of idiots. Do we want to fight that battle again? Many Islamists are superstitious and medieval. They should not have the right to abuse our scientific skepticism.

Black Dog · June 5, 2008

Steyn's argument turns critically on demographics and demographics is the statistical graveyard of the neophytes.

For hacks like Steyn, the real beauty of dabbling in demographics is that by the time their predictions fail to come to pass, these wannabe Miss Cleos are dead or forgotten and thus, can't be held accountable.

August1991 · June 6, 2008

For hacks like Steyn, the real beauty of dabbling in demographics is that by the time their predictions fail to come to pass, these wannabe Miss Cleos are dead or forgotten and thus, can't be held accountable.

As you would say BD, anecdote is not the plural of data but I had a long chat with a young German whose girlfriend became pregnant and they decided to keep the child. In Moscow, I have seen several pregnant women but this is far from a trend. Young Russians may think about sex but they certainly don't think about children.

It is common to hear that technology (contraceptive pill) gave women (and men) the choice of free sex in the 1960s but this choice existed before, and the choices now are not so clear. People fear STIs.

All of this is to say that each generation seems to decide how it will approach life and family. It is hard to predict what future generations will do.

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I wouldn't describe Steyn as a hack and IMV, Steyn is on firmer ground when he argues about the "lack of will" in the West. There does seem to be confusion about this.

Black Dog · June 6, 2008

All of this is to say that each generation seems to decide how it will approach life and family. It is hard to predict what future generations will do.

I agree. Steyn's work on this seems to be based on the assumption that high birthrates are a fixed feature of certain cultures and not a product of local circumstances, education, economic status etc. Historically, immigrant birthrates regress to th e

I wouldn't describe Steyn as a hack and IMV, Steyn is on firmer ground when he argues about the "lack of will" in the West. There does seem to be confusion about this.

It's always about "will" with those people, isn't it? I'd have an easier time accepting some of the rot that Steyn and his ilk put forward about "Eurabia" and other such foolishness if one weren't able to draw a straight line from their thesis through to the "yellow peril" and on to the xenophobic fantasies that drove and continue to drive antisemitism. IOW, we've heard this song and dance before.

WIP · June 6, 2008

I wouldn't describe Steyn as a hack and IMV, Steyn is on firmer ground when he argues about the "lack of will" in the West. There does seem to be confusion about this.

And every free, liberal democracy should have a "lack of Will!" That's the key to preventing would be fascists from carrying out their dreams of conquest on the world stage! Fascists and pseudofascists want a continuous state of war to "toughen" up the liberal democratic societies they feel contempt for!

Too bad a fearful population in America was stampeded in to war by alarmist rhetoric and disinformation from the government and pro war advocates like Mark Steyn. Choose your wars wisely!

jbg · June 6, 2008

So hysterical denunciations of corporations due to their spokespersons' sartorial choices are okay because bad stuff happens in other societies? If not, what's your point in juxtaposing the two? What does one have to do with the other at all?

Proportion. Far better to have an attacked advertisement than a wacked head.

sharkman · June 6, 2008

And every free, liberal democracy should have a "lack of Will!" That's the key to preventing would be fascists from carrying out their dreams of conquest on the world stage! Fascists and pseudofascists want a continuous state of war to "toughen" up the liberal democratic societies they feel contempt for!
Too bad a fearful population in America was stampeded in to war by alarmist rhetoric and disinformation from the government and pro war advocates like Mark Steyn. Choose your wars wisely!

Come on, surely you can do better than a left wing knee jerk response! It was will power that brought North America the right for Blacks to be free and then to vote, for women to vote, for freedom of religion and I could go on and on. It isn't a lack of will that saves us from fascists, it's an agreed will that they and the poison they push is wrong.

Black Dog · June 6, 2008

Proportion. Far better to have an attacked advertisement than a wacked head.

We're talking chalk and cheese here. However people in other countries/societies choose to react to public displays of religious whatever has no bearing on this specific case.

BubberMiley · June 6, 2008

Far better to have an attacked advertisement than a wacked head.

Do you really believe someone would become decapitated if the Dunkin Donuts people were not attacked for wearing their scarves?

jbg · June 7, 2008

Do you really believe someone would become decapitated if the Dunkin Donuts people were not attacked for wearing their scarves?

No. I'm saying that the Dunkin' Donuts person wearing a checked scarf isn't killed because some idiot decides it's a kaffiyeh. A person making a similar mistake in the Muslim world may face a far less kind fate.

WIP · June 7, 2008

Come on, surely you can do better than a left wing knee jerk response! It was will power that brought North America the right for Blacks to be free and then to vote, for women to vote, for freedom of religion and I could go on and on. It isn't a lack of will that saves us from fascists, it's an agreed will that they and the poison they push is wrong.

Can't you figure it out that these people consider everyone who questions their reasons and evidence for going to war, to be lacking willpower. Everyone who questioned the logic behind the "war on terror" was called unpatriotic.

Mark Steyn and his cohorts informed us that Islam was incompatible with Western values and had invaded Europe and would conquer Europe in half a century; and yet out of the other side of his mouth, he claimed that the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan would democratize the MiddleEast! How could both of these propositions have been true? If you can't democratize Islam in Europe, why would any sane, rational person believe you could do it in Iraq?

The argument wasn't an honest one in the first place! Steyn was willing to support a U.S. effort to control access to MiddleEast oil, when the sensible policy would have been to disengage from the MiddleEast and save those billions wasted on a fruitless war effort to make an easier transition towards the inevitable post-oil economy.

Wild Bill · June 7, 2008

Can't you figure it out that these people consider everyone who questions their reasons and evidence for going to war, to be lacking willpower. Everyone who questioned the logic behind the "war on terror" was called unpatriotic.
Mark Steyn and his cohorts informed us that Islam was incompatible with Western values and had invaded Europe and would conquer Europe in half a century; and yet out of the other side of his mouth, he claimed that the occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan would democratize the MiddleEast! How could both of these propositions have been true? If you can't democratize Islam in Europe, why would any sane, rational person believe you could do it in Iraq?

The argument wasn't an honest one in the first place! Steyn was willing to support a U.S. effort to control access to MiddleEast oil, when the sensible policy would have been to disengage from the MiddleEast and save those billions wasted on a fruitless war effort to make an easier transition towards the inevitable post-oil economy.

Now you're starting to confuse me.

Did you actually read Steyn's book? Or are you just regurgitating criticisms from others who have not read his book?

August1991 · June 7, 2008

And every free, liberal democracy should have a "lack of Will!" That's the key to preventing would be fascists from carrying out their dreams of conquest on the world stage! Fascists and pseudofascists want a continuous state of war to "toughen" up the liberal democratic societies they feel contempt for!
Too bad a fearful population in America was stampeded in to war by alarmist rhetoric and disinformation from the government and pro war advocates like Mark Steyn. Choose your wars wisely!

Choose the wars?

Life would be so much simpler if the World Trade Center was still standing, if the bombings in London, Madrid and Bali had never occurred, if the hostage taking in Moscow and Beslan had never happened.

The Soviet Union was a grave risk to human freedom and so too were Hitler, Tojo and Mao. We confronted these dangers and saw them off. We must do the same with these Islamofascists. We should not collapse into questioning the basic validity of western liberal democracy.

BubberMiley · June 7, 2008

No. I'm saying that the Dunkin' Donuts person wearing a checked scarf isn't killed because some idiot decides it's a kaffiyeh. A person making a similar mistake in the Muslim world may face a far less kind fate.

I don't know. Try wearing a red baseball cap in Crips territory.

Michael Hardner · June 7, 2008

The top link is dead, but there is this:

"Conversations with History"

I watched the whole thing and I was shocked to find myself enjoying Steyn's wit and intelligence as well as his plain-speaking. I agree with a great number of his posts, wherein he discusses lazy thinking and problems with our society.

But I was also pleased that I wasn't seduced by these attributes of his into believing his argument, which is still wrong. The reason he is wrong is that there is a link in his argument that is weak, and makes the whole thing fall apart. It is the link between an increasing Muslim population and whatever potential harm he sees coming from that.

He speaks towards the problem being worse in Europe due to 'multi-culturalism' versus 'melting pot' but he doesn't lay out a convincing argument. In fact, at the point where a convincing link is required he falls back on anecdotes and individual examples where an immam said this or that.

If 'melting pot' is better than 'multiculturalism' for integrating new cultures, then where is that tipping point ? What are the specifics that need to be done ? Is the difference between the US and Europe in this regard due to specific policies, or just to socialism in general ?

Steyn's arguments seem to culminate in a pointless critique of the Muslim religion which can't lead anywhere, and therefore are interpreted as hate mongering, as happened with his MacLean's article. Like Chomsky, he is good at talking about the world but bad at recommending real changes.

Steyn also makes some very facile arguments and makes factual errors: Islam is 'different' than other religions because of the words of Muhammed (surely, the economic and military dominance of Christian nations during the reformation period and subsequent marginalization of other religions have nothing to do with it) and the US' high birth rate is indicating of a healthy 'society'. (The US birth rate is 139th in the world (14) versus the UK's 153rd (12)).

I suppose I have changed my opinion somewhat in that I think that it's good that he speaks of taboo subjects, because it engenders discussion.

sharkman · June 7, 2008

I don't know. Try wearing a red baseball cap in Crips territory.

Sure, we could compare what illegal things may happen in each society and I think areas of the Muslim world are far worse with honor killings and such, but what about the legally sanctioned stuff? I don't think that they cut off the hand of a thief in the US yet, do they?

Michael Hardner · June 7, 2008

Black Dog - did you say this:

Anecdote is not the plural of data.

If so, this is an excellent and pertinent quote - thanks for that.

WIP · June 7, 2008

Choose the wars?
Life would be so much simpler if the World Trade Center was still standing, if the bombings in London, Madrid and Bali had never occurred, if the hostage taking in Moscow and Beslan had never happened.

Yep, it would have been simpler! Now tell me how the occupation of Iraq has reduced the likelihood of future terrorist attacks?

The Soviet Union was a grave risk to human freedom and so too were Hitler, Tojo and Mao. We confronted these dangers and saw them off. We must do the same with these Islamofascists. We should not collapse into questioning the basic validity of western liberal democracy.

And there you have it! First, we're told Islamofascism is a different kind of enemy based on a religion that's incompatible with Western values, and then we're told that all we have to do is occupy them and sprinkle on democracy and voila! - Iraq and Afghanistan will turn into West Germany and post-WWII Japan! Every time Rumsfeld or one of Bush's other clowns was asked how long the occupation would last, the reporters were reminded that it took ten years before a democratic state was ready in West Germany; ignoring the obvious fact that the major reason those occupations were so harmonious was that both the occupiers and the occupied faced a common enemy -- the Soviet Union. But if there is one truism about the study of history that's guaranteed, it's that nations go to war thinking they are going to fight the same kind of war as the previous one.

And after all of the bluster about War on Terror, oil has more than tripled in price( guess where a lot of those profits are going?), Iran has control of most of Iraq, and the Taleban is making a comeback in Afghanistan. If you're going to go to war, at least make sure that you're going to win!

Michael Hardner · June 7, 2008

Another great quote - this one from Steyn though:

"Canadians grow up as the world's biggest "observer culture"

He says that the 49th parallel operates as the world's biggest store window, with Canadians looking in.

:lol:

Again, I'm pleased to find out that he is such an insightful wit and that I still disagree with him.

Michael Hardner · June 7, 2008

Looks like BD isn't the author....

Great quote though.

http://clinicalevidence.blogspot.com/2006/...s-not-data.html

jbg · June 9, 2008

Choose the wars?
Life would be so much simpler if the World Trade Center was still standing, if the bombings in London, Madrid and Bali had never occurred, if the hostage taking in Moscow and Beslan had never happened.

The Soviet Union was a grave risk to human freedom and so too were Hitler, Tojo and Mao. We confronted these dangers and saw them off. We must do the same with these Islamofascists. We should not collapse into questioning the basic validity of western liberal democracy.

As usual, August 1991 you hit the nail on the head here. The attacks on the WTC, and mass transit in London and Madrid shows that the Islamic World cannot and will not accept the concept of liberal self-rule by people. They consider it offensive.

I do not believe that this is entirely a religious issue, though. Throughout history, groups such as Communists, Fascists and absolute monarchists have considered liberal, self-rule systems to be anathema. The French Revolution, rememeber, did not go down well in the the rest of Europe.