Hamas accepts Israel's right to exist in peace

[DogOnPorch]

Hamas cease fire = we ran out of ammo and need to reload.

-----------------------------------------

…the Jewish faith does not wish for peace nor stability, since it is a faith that is based on murder: 'I kill, therefore I am' … Israel is based only on blood and murder in order to exist, and it will disappear, with Allah's will, through blood and Shahids [martyrs].

---Dr. Yussuf Al-Sharafi, Hamas representative, April 12, 2007

[Rue]

Kinda odd that even when Hamas does offer a ceasefire (something that apparantly Israel always cries for) they are outright rejected. Funny, how even when concessions are made - ie no inclusion of the WB, no more shelling etc) Israel says again and again no.

Gosh - with actions like that perhaps one might conclude that those governing the Jewish State of Israel really have no interest in any kind of peace.

I'd wager they are more interested in 'Piece", as in a piece of Palestinian land here, and a piece of land there, till there is nothing left even if Palestine ever could attain some kind of statehood. Which of course, is rather difficult when you are occupied.

Odd... to say the least - that everytime a solution is offered, Israel herself finds fault with it, while at the same time threatening all her neighbours - and others (ie the Sampson Option).

Yep... those darn Israeli bureaucrats sure do want piece eh??

This asking questions which also provide the answers and are based on your subjective opinions their point?

Instead of imposing simplistic black and white, Hamas good and Israel bad labels to the negotiations going on do you think before you state your personal opinions which are completely one sided, that you actually find out what Israel has said and what their position is before you act as if you know what it is and continue to mistate it as you have.

In fact you are as usual completely and utterly not even remotely close to reporting what Israel actually said.

The Israeli position is if Hamas states it recognizes the right of Israel to exist and will not engage in terror it will talk. Not what you erroneously misrepresented because of your bias.

The point is your original post was not true. Hamas never agreed to recognize Israel and still hasn't. What it has said and you will not make an effort to ascertain because you believe you already know the truth and so do not need to go verify is that it made it clear in Arabic to the Arab press that it does not and will never recognize the right of Israel to exist and it considers it legitimate to say what ever it has to say to achieve those ends.

It in fact said the treaty is just a pause in the war to liberate Israel and Jordan to give it a chance to re-arm. Of course in your world you selectively block that out right because Jimmy Carter has been told something he wants to hear.

Jimmy Carter is a laughing stock precisely because when he goes into talks posing as a mediator he is not-he like you has a preconceived idea of right and wrong and he hears what he wants to hear and repeats what he wants to repeat. Hamas ridicules him as a dupe in the Arab press.

Where were you Buffy when Arafat sat at Oslo and was offered 97% of the land he asked for and at the last second stood up and said-are you crazy, I was joking. This is just a game. I will never stop until all of Israel is given back. Where were you? Do you bother to read what he said and why all the talks leading up to Oslo were a just a game? Were you there when he said one thing to the Western Press while at the very same timesaying the exact opposite to the Arab press no differently then Hamas is now?

You think this is only a matter between Israel and Hamas? It is not. It directly involves Jordan as well. It directly involves Egypt. Egypt and Jordan are just as much an obstacle as you try paint Israel when it comes to negotiating with Hamas for the exact same reasons.

You know all you arm chair experts sitting in Canada where no missiles are shot at your ass and a suicide bomber is not a street away from blowing you up, its easy for you who have zero idea how Hamas operates, why no one, not even Hamas take what they say literally.

What they say is just words. Its their actions on the ground. The words are rhetoric for consumption with people like you who believe the world is defined in two neat terms-good and bad.

The bottom line is this situation is absolutely no different then the one in Ireland where before Tony Blair could sit down and negotiate the IRA had to disagree to disarm. No different.

This constant attempt by you or anyone else to suggest someone should sit down with a terrorist who will not publically agree to a disarmament is idiotic and naive.

Right. In the real world Buffy and not the cozy comfy world of Canada where some of us are so damn righteous and love to point the finger and lecture like they are some Christian misisonary telling a savage Jew they are going to hell because they won't believe in Jesus-in the real world where you do not have your deeply entrenched Christian cultural bias of thinking you can lecture Jews on morality (and that is all it is)-in the real world, Israel could give a shit what people like you say. It will do what is right to protect and keep its people safe.

If and when Hamas agrees to recognize Israel, neither you nor any other arm chair expert will understand what else also has to happen behind the scenes to assure such words mean something and not just to Israel, but Abbas, Jordan and Egypt.

Tell me which one of you arm chair experts believes you can sit down with Paul Bernardo and have him understand what he did was wrong? Well? That right now is what you experts are suggesting is possible.

That's nice. Some of us know when you sit with a sociopath you first assure he has no weapons of any kind and then we know what they say is not something that can be taken literally. In the real world, a sociopath is not someone who cares about truth and falsehood they do and say what they think gets them what they need.

That is all a terrorist is despite your trying to romanticize them as people we sit and have tea with and make kissy poo with.

As for those who say Israel won't give back the West Bank if they can be assured there would be no terrorist attacks-such comments are your subjective opinions reflecting your biases and do not reflect what the ISraeli government and its people have said and want.

I do believe the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace and if there was a referendum by Palestinians that expressed this, Hamas would honour it. What I do not know and no one knows is whether Hamas would sabotage such a referendum to make sure no popular vote in favour of peaceful co-existence could come about. Hamas is full of cells of people who feel it is legitimate to deceive and lie as a means to liberate Israel. That is something most of you are oblivious to. Average Palestinians are not.

If Hamas was genuinely interested in what Palestinians wanted it would not have destroyed the infrastructure, the roads, schools, mosques, green-houses that came about because of Israeli-Palestinian cooperation. They would not have and continue to threaten to kill any Palestinian who says they want peace with Israel. That is the real world right now not this fairy tale one of Hamas being some romantic boy scout movement full of nobility for its people.

This is a group that feels killing its people and placing them in the line of fire is a legitimate means to expres its political will.

[Rue]

If this matter is to be resolved it must be resolved between Palestinians and Israelis. This typical Christian missionary arrogance of Carter to think he is morally superior to Palestinians and Israelis and will float in on his moral cloud of righteousness and set the world straight is nothing but racist horseshit.

Its the same old arrogance that saw Christian missionaries wipe out millions of natives and travel the world seeking to rescue the souls of savages.

Carter and his pretentious presumptious Christian missionary attitude can fuck right off.

Mr. Abbas is being undermined by Carter. King Hussein of Jordan was undermined by Carter. Mr. Mubarak in Egypt was undermined by Carter.

This is a matter of some sanctimonious twit not just thinking he can lecture Israel about talking to a sociopath pointing a gun at its head because Jimmy says so, its a matter of telling Egypt, Jordan and Abbas the same thing. All its done is piss people off behind the scenes while Hamas has a good laugh.

Carter lost it years ago when he began writing that his Christian religious beliefs made him a sueprior human and give him absolue faith that he has an obligation to save others from their sins.

Thanks but the last thing the world needs is another missionary.

True visionaries that search and assist peace say nothing. They only listen and pass on what they hear and enagge in neutral statements. They don't take sides or impose an agenda. That is not what Carter is doing.

He has a specific agenda-to show he is smarter then Bill Clinton. This is about Jimmy Carter desperately trying to create a legacy before he dies by winning a peace prize to shed his image of having been a weak, inept leader and someone everyone on the international stage laughed at and still does.

Carter's intentions are genuine and for that he should be applauded-his righteousness and ego are to be condemned for all they do is generate this smug arrogance and belief he can tell the world what to do.

Someone please read how Tony Blair conducted himself during the IRA negotiations and compare that to what Carter is doing. There is a reason Blair succeeded but Carter never has.

If a peace comes about it will come about with Tony Blair and former negotiators from the Irish talks as well as countries such as Norway, Spain, Germany, Turkey, Germany, playing behind the scene key roles not to m ention Jordan and Egypt directly involved and you can be sure the Arab League and in particular Syria, and Saudi Arabia involved.

This is a lot more complex then Jimmy Carter showing up to talk to Hamas. There are literally hunrdeds of interests involved.

[HisSelf]

Kinda odd that even when Hamas does offer a ceasefire (something that apparantly Israel always cries for) they are outright rejected. Funny, how even when concessions are made - ie no inclusion of the WB, no more shelling etc) Israel says again and again no.

So true. There were cease fires during the Second Intifada. Arafat and the PLO sat on their hands while Israel continued to bulldoze homes, take political prisoners, and finally imprison Arafat in his own headquarters - all the work of the Likud, Netenyahu and Sharon. Western opinion is all too often shaped by the extraordinarily biased western press. The American press has become so biased in favour of Israel that it is not possible to believe anything they say anymore. Even the Brits, who have their own problems with Islam, don't take them seriously any more. Watch the BBC and read the Economist if you want to know what's really going on there. You sure as hell won't get the straight goods here.

Israel continues to build settlements - illegal even under Israeli law - while the Palestinians are expected to just sit on their hands and do nothing. Meanwhile we are repeatedly bombarded with Holocaust stories....

[HisSelf]

If this matter is to be resolved it must be resolved between Palestinians and Israelis. This typical Christian missionary arrogance of Carter to think he is morally superior to Palestinians and Israelis and will float in on his moral cloud of righteousness and set the world straight is nothing but racist horseshit.

So what's your point of reference? Wolfowitz? Perle? Cheney? Netenyahu?

I cannot believe you can be so simple as to believe that there is any sort of free negotiation between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Everybody knows the Israelis can always call on BIG DADDY to come and blow any troublemakers out of the water.

The Palestinians, in spite of the fact that they have every right to be where they are, have absolutely no power to negotiate because Israel has always negotiated over their heads with the British, the French, the Americans, whoever had skirts big enough for them to hide behind.

Carter is one of the few people in the US with the cojones to call a spade a spade. You go, Jimmy.

[DogOnPorch]

So what's your point of reference? Wolfowitz? Perle? Cheney? Netenyahu?

I cannot believe you can be so simple as to believe that there is any sort of free negotiation between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Everybody knows the Israelis can always call on BIG DADDY to come and blow any troublemakers out of the water.

The Palestinians, in spite of the fact that they have every right to be where they are, have absolutely no power to negotiate because Israel has always negotiated over their heads with the British, the French, the Americans, whoever had skirts big enough for them to hide behind.

Carter is one of the few people in the US with the cojones to call a spade a spade. You go, Jimmy.

Big Daddy? The USA, I assume? Can you give me an example where the USA has come to Israel's military aid during war?

---------------------------------------------

...bed goes up...bed goes down...bed goes up...bed goes down...

---Homer Simpson

[sharkman]

(Rue responding to Buffycat)

Instead of imposing simplistic black and white, Hamas good and Israel bad labels to the negotiations going on do you think before you state your personal opinions which are completely one sided, that you actually find out what Israel has said and what their position is before you act as if you know what it is and continue to mistate it as you have.

In fact you are as usual completely and utterly not even remotely close to reporting what Israel actually said.

The Israeli position is if Hamas states it recognizes the right of Israel to exist and will not engage in terror it will talk. Not what you erroneously misrepresented because of your bias.

The point is your original post was not true. Hamas never agreed to recognize Israel and still hasn't. What it has said and you will not make an effort to ascertain because you believe you already know the truth and so do not need to go verify is that it made it clear in Arabic to the Arab press that it does not and will never recognize the right of Israel to exist and it considers it legitimate to say what ever it has to say to achieve those ends.

It in fact said the treaty is just a pause in the war to liberate Israel and Jordan to give it a chance to re-arm. Of course in your world you selectively block that out right because Jimmy Carter has been told something he wants to hear.

Jimmy Carter is a laughing stock precisely because when he goes into talks posing as a mediator he is not-he like you has a preconceived idea of right and wrong and he hears what he wants to hear and repeats what he wants to repeat. Hamas ridicules him as a dupe in the Arab press.

Where were you Buffy when Arafat sat at Oslo and was offered 97% of the land he asked for and at the last second stood up and said-are you crazy, I was joking. This is just a game. I will never stop until all of Israel is given back. Where were you? Do you bother to read what he said and why all the talks leading up to Oslo were a just a game? Were you there when he said one thing to the Western Press while at the very same timesaying the exact opposite to the Arab press no differently then Hamas is now?

You think this is only a matter between Israel and Hamas? It is not. It directly involves Jordan as well. It directly involves Egypt. Egypt and Jordan are just as much an obstacle as you try paint Israel when it comes to negotiating with Hamas for the exact same reasons.

You know all you arm chair experts sitting in Canada where no missiles are shot at your ass and a suicide bomber is not a street away from blowing you up, its easy for you who have zero idea how Hamas operates, why no one, not even Hamas take what they say literally.

What they say is just words. Its their actions on the ground. The words are rhetoric for consumption with people like you who believe the world is defined in two neat terms-good and bad.

The bottom line is this situation is absolutely no different then the one in Ireland where before Tony Blair could sit down and negotiate the IRA had to disagree to disarm. No different.

This constant attempt by you or anyone else to suggest someone should sit down with a terrorist who will not publically agree to a disarmament is idiotic and naive.

Right. In the real world Buffy and not the cozy comfy world of Canada where some of us are so damn righteous and love to point the finger and lecture like they are some Christian misisonary telling a savage Jew they are going to hell because they won't believe in Jesus-in the real world where you do not have your deeply entrenched Christian cultural bias of thinking you can lecture Jews on morality (and that is all it is)-in the real world, Israel could give a shit what people like you say. It will do what is right to protect and keep its people safe.

If and when Hamas agrees to recognize Israel, neither you nor any other arm chair expert will understand what else also has to happen behind the scenes to assure such words mean something and not just to Israel, but Abbas, Jordan and Egypt.

snip

As for those who say Israel won't give back the West Bank if they can be assured there would be no terrorist attacks-such comments are your subjective opinions reflecting your biases and do not reflect what the ISraeli government and its people have said and want.

I do believe the vast majority of Israelis and Palestinians want peace and if there was a referendum by Palestinians that expressed this, Hamas would honour it. What I do not know and no one knows is whether Hamas would sabotage such a referendum to make sure no popular vote in favour of peaceful co-existence could come about. Hamas is full of cells of people who feel it is legitimate to deceive and lie as a means to liberate Israel. That is something most of you are oblivious to. Average Palestinians are not.

If Hamas was genuinely interested in what Palestinians wanted it would not have destroyed the infrastructure, the roads, schools, mosques, green-houses that came about because of Israeli-Palestinian cooperation. They would not have and continue to threaten to kill any Palestinian who says they want peace with Israel. That is the real world right now not this fairy tale one of Hamas being some romantic boy scout movement full of nobility for its people.

This is a group that feels killing its people and placing them in the line of fire is a legitimate means to expres its political will.

Rue, it almost pains me to see the Jew-hating views expressed on this board time and time again. It worries me that some are so unable to see the entire picture in and around Israel, and can only condemn Israel for trying to survive. Thank you for taking the time to frame the issue as it really is, even though you are mostly ignored by those who can't debate on your level.

[buffycat]

Big Daddy? The USA, I assume? Can you give me an example where the USA has come to Israel's military aid during war?

---------------------------------------------

...bed goes up...bed goes down...bed goes up...bed goes down...

---Homer Simpson

Do you really NEED someone to point out the relationship wrt military aid and such between Israel and the US??

Really???

LMAO

Man, you are one deluded mofo.

[buffycat]

(Rue responding to Buffycat)

Rue, it almost pains me to see the Jew-hating views expressed on this board time and time again. It worries me that some are so unable to see the entire picture in and around Israel, and can only condemn Israel for trying to survive. Thank you for taking the time to frame the issue as it really is, even though you are mostly ignored by those who can't debate on your level.

I don't usually respond to you - as you're not worth it.

However I would love to see WHERE anyone here has been a Jew hater.

I'm waiting....

Unless of course you equate every single Jew on the planet with the actions of the Israeli Admin.

Do you?????

What a joke Sharky boy.

[buffycat]

Rue, did you say something???

Oh, not really eh?

Again, your diatribe is full of inconsistencies, lies and innuendo.

Israel has not bargained in good faith - ever.

What say YOU about the illegal settlements hmmmm???

(I know you won't answer that - you will simply make shit up and respond to your own ramblings - no surprise there).

BTW - I saw Norman this weekend - you really need to go too.

[M.Dancer]

Do you really NEED someone to point out the relationship wrt military aid and such between Israel and the US??

It would seem that in this regard, you are unable to discern the difference between a military supplier and a military protector.

So in other words, when did the US ever jump in to protect Israel when Israel was attacked?

limber up....

[buffycat]

It would seem that in this regard, you are unable to discern the difference between a military supplier and a military protector.

So in other words, when did the US ever jump in to protect Israel when Israel was attacked?

limber up....

Well, there isn't much a dfference wrt Israel. She already has one of the strongest militaries in the world. She has lotsa toys courtesy of the USA, if she runs low on anything - Daddy US will make sure she gets it forthwith!! Think ammunitions in the last Lebanon fiasco. Think billions of $$$ yearly going to make sure her outpost is well armed??

Sorry, Dancer no diff here between supplier and protector.

MOOT

[DogOnPorch]

HisSelf: Everybody knows the Israelis can always call on BIG DADDY to come and blow any troublemakers out of the water.

DOP: Can you give me an example where the USA has come to Israel's military aid during war?

Do you really NEED someone to point out the relationship wrt military aid and such between Israel and the US??

Really???

LMAO

Man, you are one deluded mofo.

Can you name a single time the United States military fought alongside Israel? The closest I can think of was the USMC in Beruit as a peacekeeping force back after the war against Yasser Arafat and the PLO....and that's indeed a stretch. So yeah...I suppose I really NEED someone to point out when, exactly, this occured.

I will point out that the same could be said of the relationship between Arab countries and the various nations that give and sell them weapons if it is military aid you're refering to rather than fighting in combat. Do you think Arab weapons grow on trees? Silly question...of course you do.

That being said, Israel produces much of its own weapons, often far superior to their American counterparts in terms of being able to operate in the climate and terrain around Israel. The Merkava being a good example.

I would also ask that you not refer to me as a 'm*ther f*cker', deluded or otherwise. It's very rude and I don't level those sorts of personal insults at you...even when you tried to ban me on another forum for not agreeing with you. An apology is in order. Thanks very much.

--------------------------------------------

Rudeness is a weak imitation of strength.

---Eric Hoffer

[buffycat]

I would also ask that you not refer to me as a 'm*ther f*cker', deluded or otherwise. It's very rude and I don't level those sorts of personal insults at you...even when you tried to ban me on another forum for not agreeing with you. An apology is in order. Thanks very much.

--------------------------------------------

Hmmm... I didn't refer to you as a mf. Unless you are both DOP and M.Dancer (the asshole formerly known as Morris Dancer, now lost).

But I will certainly refer to this post of yours as a complete 'whine' job.

Booo f hooo. I didn't ban you. You were out of order and the owner of the site banned you. I did not have that power.

Funny though, you were FAR more 'leftist' on the previous board - which leaves me wondering whether or not you are simply just a professional troll and instigator.

Nah... that's giving you way too much credit.

As for your musing wrt Israel - it doesn't compare wrt who backs who. The US is THE military might in this world. Israel herself is WAY up there. The rest, sorry to inform you just don't hold a candle, with the exception of perhaps Russia and China. Sure there's India and Pakistan with their nukes - but really they aren't in the same league.

And, yeah the Amis were there for the 82 invasion of Lebanon and the subsequent wars which left over 10,000 civilians dead and the land in ruin. The Amin are there now, by their funding for what was the second Lebanese massacre, this time incurring 1200 and counting! Meanwhile, the Amis are there supplying Israel aid, on so many levels, while the collective punishment continues against all those in Gaza, never mind the illegal settlements within the WB.

So, whatever Doggie - bark bark...

Edited May 5, 2008 by buffycat

[DogOnPorch]

B_cat: Hmmm... I didn't refer to you as a mf. Unless you are both DOP and M.Dancer (the asshole formerly known as Morris Dancer, now lost).

Sure you did. I know what mofo means. Do you?

B_cat: Man, you are one deluded mofo.

B_cat: Booo f hooo. I didn't ban you. You were out of order and the owner of the site banned you. I did not have that power.

Do you recall what 'out of order' was? I do. The thread was about who was worse...Hitler or Stalin. Someone claimed I was a Nazi sympathizer to which I replied 'the only good Nazi is a dead Nazi' or something along those lines. I was then 'banned' for inciting genocide...lol. You didn't have the power, eh? You must have felt rather useless as a "moderator".

And, yeah the Amis were there for the 82 invasion of Lebanon and the subsequent wars which left over 10,000 civilians dead and the land in ruin. The Amin are there now, by their funding for what was the second Lebanese massacre, this time incurring 1200 and counting! Meanwhile, the Amis are there supplying Israel aid, on so many levels, while the collective punishment continues against all those in Gaza, never mind the illegal settlements within the WB.

So in other words: No, the US hasn't helped Israel fight its wars other than by giving aid (or not giving aid as per the Yom Kippur War)...which is precisely what the Arabs get from the likes of Red China, North Korea, Russia, et al. Not to mention much of the Arab's military aid over the years was free of charge due to their status as defacto Warsaw Pact members. But, that's different, somehow...right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab-Israeli_Conflict

The Americans were in Lebanon as part of the multinational peacekeeping force. Not as Israel's ally. You might remember that they ran into a spot of trouble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_invasion_of_Lebanon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multinational_Force_in_Lebanon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_1983_U.S._Embassy_bombing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing

Funny though, you were FAR more 'leftist' on the previous board - which leaves me wondering whether or not you are simply just a professional troll and instigator.

Well, they can start paying me anytime soon. I'm neither right nor left. But thanks for asking.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Arab leaders worry more about making money from the profits they get from oil and gas that they turn the other way when Lebanon is being destroyed right next to them. Their neighbours are being murdered, but they only make calculations for their own benefit.

---Abu Bakar Bashir

Edited May 6, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[sharkman]

Hmmm... I didn't refer to you as a mf. Unless you are both DOP and M.Dancer (the asshole formerly known as Morris Dancer, now lost).

But I will certainly refer to this post of yours as a complete 'whine' job.

Booo f hooo. I didn't ban you. You were out of order and the owner of the site banned you. I did not have that power.

Funny though, you were FAR more 'leftist' on the previous board - which leaves me wondering whether or not you are simply just a professional troll and instigator.

Nah... that's giving you way too much credit.

Uh, so any particular reason today that your panties are in a twist? Oh, thats right, a few people had the nerve to disagree with you about your favorite race to hate, the Israelis.

You still can't name a military action in which the US fought along side of Israel.

[DogOnPorch]

As for your musing wrt Israel - it doesn't compare wrt who backs who. The US is THE military might in this world. Israel herself is WAY up there. The rest, sorry to inform you just don't hold a candle, with the exception of perhaps Russia and China. Sure there's India and Pakistan with their nukes - but really they aren't in the same league.

That's simply incorrect. Israel has a very small military. It gets its advantages from superior command control and a superb officer corp as well as American style NCOs who can make battlefield decisions on the spot. Not to mentioned a motivated, well trained and educated rank n' file. Interior supply lines are also an advantage they exploit well during war with multiple enemies. Equipment plays a lesser part...it's how it is used that counts. Israel's main battle tank during the 6 Day War and thrown back into action in 1973's Yom Kippur War was the M4 Sherman from WW2. This while the Arabs had the latest T-62s and T-72s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Sherman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M50_Super_Sherman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-62

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-72

Israel is actually ranked 32 in the world based on manpower. It only has an active force of 160,000. Compare this to Syria (300,000), Egypt (450,000), Iran (550,000) and Pakistan (620,000).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...f_active_troops

Canada is ranked 60th at 62,000...a fraction of that combat foot soldiers.

--------------------------------------------------------------

All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.

---Galileo Galilei

[White Doors]

Hmmm... I didn't refer to you as a mf.

?? Buffy, are you that clueless? It's right there in black and white. You were responding to DOP's post, you even quoted it.

Do you think people are stupid or what?

[scribblet]

Do you really NEED someone to point out the relationship wrt military aid and such between Israel and the US??

Really???

LMAO

Man, you are one deluded mofo.

Gee, I was going to respond but when the level of discourse is brought down to calling people names and swearing there's no point. Since when does this board allow such garbage.. mofo, ass..., and s..t I thought this was board was better than that.

Good posts Rue, Sharkman and DOP... keep up the good work

[Charles Anthony]

Everybody,

Stop the nagging, the personal attacks, the insults and the off-topic banter.

Cool your tempers and just stick to discussing the topic on hand in a civilized manner.

[DogOnPorch]

Thanks Charles. Understood.

Interesting news today...

JENIN, West Bank, May 6 (Reuters) - A Palestinian civilian was killed on Tuesday when President Mahmoud Abbas's security forces clashed with gunmen for the first time since launching a law-and-order push in the northern West Bank.

Hundreds of Abbas's forces deployed to the city of Jenin on Saturday in a U.S.-backed security push Washington hopes will show the Palestinians can rein in militants -- Israel's main condition for Palestinian statehood.

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSL0619003

Seems some effort is being tried on the Arab side of the line.

---------------------------------------------------

McCain wants to stay in Iraq until no more Americans are getting killed, no matter how long it takes and how many Americans get killed achieving that goal -- that is, the goal of not getting any more Americans killed. And once that goal is achieved, we'll stay.

---Rick Hertzberg, in The New Yorker

[JB Globe]

You're asking me to argue with a secondary point. Who cares about the views of the majority of the Palestinians? They're not the problem!

The issue is with the ones with guns who fire rockets. After a rocket lands on your home having someone hand you a poll result showing that the majority of the folks on the rocket launcher's side of the hill don't want to kill you and your family is cold comfort.

Your arguments seem rather academic and not real-world, at least to me.

Well, now you seem to be making a distinction between the official aims of Hamas and the opinion of the Palestinian public, but you weren't earlier in this post, which is what I was responding to . . .

I think you're ascribing rational thought to irrational people. The Palestinian appetite for bloodshed knows no bounds. Israel HAS had to re-occupy land PRECISELY because Palestinians began again to fire rockets!

The Palestinian self-proclaimed goal is to drive Israel into the sea. They do not deny this. They trumpet it! We're talking fanaticism here. Until that changes, how many times should Israel return land only to endure more rockets?

This sounds neither academic nor reality-based.

But as for my argument, the fact that most Palestinians prefer the peaceful establishment of a Palestinian state to the current violence is important. It means that given an LEGIT chance, they'll stop supporting groups like Hamas. The problem being that the political alternatives to Hamas have been corrupt (Fatah), or alternatives to armed conflict have been stymied for decades (both by people like Arafat, as well as a portion of Israelis and politicians who REALLY don't want to give up the West Bank and its water resources).

[buffycat]

What Hamas really needs to do, and granted they are trying - but still have a ways to go - is to become far more organized and sophisticated wrt their political aims.

For example, when they tried to organize a peaceful march on the Erez crossing, only about 10,000 people showed up (still good - but more are needed). I am in agreement with Dr. Finkelstein, when he advocates a peaceful advance on the border - or against the wall. No doubt - some demonstrators will lose their lives, but after 10, 50, then 100 have been killed indiscriminately - well that is certainly something that the Israeli Admin cannot lie or pr herself out of.

The quassams are counter-productive, the empty threats are too - hot air all of it. Israel knows this, plays on it and sadly wins.

Hamas, has however certainly grown up a bit recently. They have maintained ceasefires, are attempting to riegn in the more extreme of the jihadist groups present in Gaza and have NO problem offering a ceasefire or hudna to Israel (in reality though - this is the last thing that the hardliners in Israel want).

Which is bad for all people of both lands.

[HisSelf]

Big Daddy? The USA, I assume? Can you give me an example where the USA has come to Israel's military aid during war?

---------------------------------------------

...bed goes up...bed goes down...bed goes up...bed goes down...

---Homer Simpson

[/q]

Can I give you an example? Ha ha. Are you saying the Israelis are flying MIGs?

Hah ha. I love it. Easy kill.

[DogOnPorch]

Can I give you an example? Ha ha. Are you saying the Israelis are flying MIGs?

Hah ha. I love it. Easy kill.

Where do the Arabs get their weapons? The weapon fairy?

The Israelis fly a variety of aircraft from their own to American to French...and even captured MiGs for evavluation purposes. Israel was given 50 F-16s for free for not responding to SCUD attacks during Gulf War I. Otherwise, they pay for them like most everyone else.

Might I remind you that the Arabs were given stuff for free in the past as well. Read the history of the equipment of the Arab Israeli Wars. The 6 Day War and Yom Kippur were war fought with Soviet weapons given freely in order to attack Israel.

Finally, one might want to see how many Arab countries also fly American aircraft...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_Air_Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Repub..._Iran_Air_Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Saudi_Air_Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_Air_Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_Air_Force

Syria makes do with their Russian toys...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrian_Air_Force

-------------------------------------------

A Chuck U. Farley Production presents: "Buggery on the High Seas!"

---Cheech y Chong