The victory or the fall of democracy?

[M.Dancer]

Outraged. An over used word if there ever was one. Don't particularly like it myself.

Fair enough.

Miffed then....

[xul]

Not sure if I'm following you....

Of course you needn't "follow" me for everyone here have the right of free speech.

But traditionally, in a forum if there was someone who started a topic and there was another one who want to discuss another issue which were irrelevant with the topic, he'd be better to start a new topic.

For one:

If there was a new immigrant posted,"When I was waiting bus at a bus stop, someone snatched my china-made cell phone and smashed it for protest something happened in China. Is it right way in a democracy system?"

Someone responsed, "I know China government are one-party rule, China media was stated-controlled and how many people was executed in China a half a century ago."

Though the response mostly are truth but would you think it might be better to be put in an independent post?

are you suggesting that protest and civil disobediance is not the way to shame China?

I don't think so. If they protested with a peaceful way, it would be more effective to back their opinion. But the way they adopt are really backing China government's opinion---the so-called protesters were not looking for improvement of human rights and democracy, but were just desperately tring to shame China---and eventually they will lose for they could persuade neither their athletes nor most of their politicians to boycotte Beijing Olympic Games.

Not following the wrecking bit....nothing has been wrecked....

Yes, there was a slightly different bewteen a man who was unsuccessfully trying to kidnap something and the man who had kidnaped somthing.

except maybe China's hope that the rest of the world will forget for a few moments that the communist regime is a ruthless killer.

We need not to forget the history. But if we let the resent inherited from the history to dominate all our daily live, I think it will be wrong especially in that time the opposite of communists were also not merciful ruler. In 1950s and 1960s in Taiwan, if anyone who was found as a communist and refused to betray his faith and party, his fate would be no different with those his opposites who was killed or imprisoned in mainland of China. And if you reviewd the newspapers published by western media during Vietnam War, you would sadly find that not only the communists was the fan of "street execution".

[charter.rights]

Of course the problem with Communism is that it only works in a vacuum. China has attempted to control the media and the outcome but because the Olympics are an international event, they have little control over the media and the outcome. I do think that using civil disobedience is warranted even to the degree that it sometimes escalates to confrontation. When this type of protest is held in China it is quickly put down because this type of public disagreement defeats the vacuum of communism. Holding protests in other countries where the Olympic flame is being passed is an effective public call for China's oppression of Tibet and I believe that most people "get it" that the protests are about Tibet and not against the Olympics.

I agree that they should continue to do what they need to outside of China to put international pressure on China to stay out of the affairs of Tibet. It is much safer and more effective, IMO.

[Wilber]

I agree that they should continue to do what they need to outside of China to put international pressure on China to stay out of the affairs of Tibet. It is much safer and more effective, IMO.

So, self proclaimed Charter.rights guy, you believe the end justifies the means as long as it is something you believe in. Interesting.

[xul]

I think the thread even could be "independent" from Tibet, China, Olympic or communism. Please allow me to rewrite the "story" without changing the meaning of the thread:

In a democratic country, there were two legal organizations. One named RWL, Rights Without Law . Another was its opposite named TWB, Tyranny Without Border .

One day, RWL decided to hold a torch leg in the country to advocate its ideology to other people in this country. They had registered the movement in the country's government so the movement had been legal.

Knowing the news with horror, for if Rights Without Law got success Tyranny Without Border would lose, so TWB decided to hold a protest against the RWL's movement. They also registed their movement so it is also legal in this country.

But in the day, TWB member went, just as its name, out of its legal border into its opposite's route trying to block the leg and snatch the torch. They enfored the RWL's movement went into mess and cut it short by violence.

My question is: Is TWB's way the way that could be accepted in a democratic country?

Edited April 9, 2008 by xul

[M.Dancer]

So apparently there were quite a few thugs at the torch rally. It seems that up to 30 Chinese Gov't Sepcial Service agents were there and there actions bbordered on assault.

My question is, do theyhave diplomatic immunity or can we throw them in jail?

[M.Dancer]

I think the thread even could be "independent" from Tibet, China, Olympic or communism. Please allow me to rewrite the "story" without changing the meaning of the thread:

In a democratic country, there were two legal organizations. One named RWL, Rights Without Law . Another was its opposite named TWB, Tyranny Without Border .

One day, RWL decided to hold a torch leg in the country to advocate its ideology to other people in this country. They had registered the movement in the country's government so the movement had been legal.

Knowing the news with horror, for if Rights Without Law got success Tyranny Without Border would lose, so TWB decided to hold a protest against the RWL's movement. They also registed their movement so it is also legal in this country.

But in the day, TWB member went, just as its name, out of its legal border into its opposite's route trying to block the leg and snatch the torch. They enfored the RWL's movement went into mess and cut it short by violence.

My question is: Is TWB's way the way that could be accepted in a democratic country?

In deomocratic nations you don't have to register your group with the gov't to be legal, you're thinking of tyrannies. In democratic nations, opposing views often clash. Mind you, opposing groups don't generally have Chinese government paramilitary goons to ensure there's no loss of face.

I still say these protests are great. There is very little that ranks up there with embarrassing a murderous tryanny by the way of civil disobediance and peaceful demonstrations. The last time that happened in China, 1000's died.

[Oleg Bach]

In deomocratic nations you don't have to register your group with the gov't to be legal, you're thinking of tyrannies. In democratic nations, opposing views often clash. Mind you, opposing groups don't generally have Chinese government paramilitary goons to ensure there's no loss of face.

I still say these protests are great. There is very little that ranks up there with embarrassing a murderous tryanny by the way of civil disobediance and peaceful demonstrations. The last time that happened in China, 1000's died.

A democracy by definition is... two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner. Actually what a democracy really is is a theatrical government run by a few or singular tyrant..who has one weakness in the tyrant area..that he wants to be thought of as a nice guy and honourable. Who ever controls the judicary and big buisness rules the nation. To get to that point of power and control you have to be a tyrant..our tyrants are the nicest in the world and thank God for that. As far as the Chineses government and their high ranking tyrants..they do not have that old Christain heritage and are still Maoist at heart..they don't care if the population knows who they are and who they really are..they were conditioned during the great cultural revolution (which was a destruction of culture) THAT killing people and haveing them fear you was power...eg.."power comes from the mussle of a gun" - at least our tyrants say "power comes from the open mussle of the bank machine"...don't you just love it...still I wonder...why do they keep money under lock and key?

[xul]

In deomocratic nations you don't have to register your group with the gov't to be legal, you're thinking of tyrannies. In democratic nations, opposing views often clash. Mind you, opposing groups don't generally have Chinese government paramilitary goons to ensure there's no loss of face.

The "legal" organizations I mentioned just meant they not "illegal" organization such as terrorist organization. If these guys parade in a street, I think everyone have right to stop them.

About registering a organization, I'm not sure "my" organization is as same as "your" organization. The organization I mentioned is a "formal" organization, not the organization merely consists of several friends such as some school kids' cats lover organizatioin. I think there have to have some kind of registeration to avoid two organizations using the same name.

For example, there was a famous organization named "Tyranny Without Border", which always got a lot of fund from worldwide dictators. One day, I formed a organization with the same name, and advertised in newspaper, "Please remit you fund to our new account." So all dictator's goon bankers' money would pour into my account. I think this would be impossible.

I still say these protests are great. There is very little that ranks up there with embarrassing a murderous tryanny by the way of civil disobediance and peaceful demonstrations. The last time that happened in China, 1000's died.

To those protesters who hold their protests peacefully, I agree that they have the rights to protest. About wether their protests are great, depends on what they were protesting, and what they wanted to achieve, not orally but essentially.

About Tibet, I don't think that Lama's rule would be better than commnunists' rule. And I don't agree the protest was led by Lamas and a living buddha is a good thing. If thoses "great" people in Paris thinks vote is the only way to benifit these tribe people, why doesn't they go to Afghanistan to help NATO to establish a peaceful tribe voting paradigm?

About "The last time that happened in China, 1000's died.", I don't know what you meant was the event in 1988 in Tibet or in 1989 in Beijing. If you meant the event in Beijing, I can tell you I was the one of the protestors in the street and that night I was in the street. The truth was not as the same as what "your" TV and those so-called democratic leaders told you though it also did not as the same as what the stated controlled TV said. But I don't think today is time to write the story I know for I'm still live in China. Perhaps one day I come Canada I would write my story here but perhaps I would not. Everyone just uses your wisdom to think, according the stated nespaper, there were 20 million protesters involved and only in Beijing, there were nearly 2 million. But where are they? All dead or being imprisoned? Lol. I think there are lot of them now lives in western but how many of them except those who absented so-called democracy leaders have wright out their stories? They don't want to talk because these story was not a story of people uprising tyranny, but the naive people was betrayed by those whom they have trusted in.

Write out what I though needs a book. I'm sorry I could wright more. If you still have some trust on me, I suggest you before you decide what you will stand, you would be better read both side's story and try to find the truth by analysis with your wisdom not your commiseration. You will find the truth usually are different than medias and political figures wants us to think.

[White Doors]

Freedom > non-freedom

You should come here to see for yourself.

[M.Dancer]

About Tibet, I don't think that Lama's rule would be better than commnunists' rule. And I don't agree the protest was led by Lamas and a living buddha is a good thing.

Perhaps but at least they would not be ruled by foreigners as they are now.

If thoses "great" people in Paris thinks vote is the only way to benifit these tribe people, why doesn't they go to Afghanistan to help NATO to establish a peaceful tribe voting paradigm?

France is in Afghanistan

About "The last time that happened in China, 1000's died.", I don't know what you meant was the event in 1988 in Tibet or in 1989 in Beijing. If you meant the event in Beijing, I can tell you I was the one of the protestors in the street and that night I was in the street. The truth was not as the same as what "your" TV and those so-called democratic leaders told you though it also did not as the same as what the stated controlled TV said. But I don't think today is time to write the story I know for I'm still live in China. Perhaps one day I come Canada I would write my story here but perhaps I would not.

Why is that? Because of the great freedom you have that China shares with Tibet. I know 2 people who were in Beijing that week, overlooking the square, ducking the bullets and watching the bodies being hurried away.

[xul]

Freedom > non-freedom

You should come here to see for yourself.

Even if I'm not here I can also understand. But to those developing countries, where people lacks of the understanding of the principle of freedom, democracy, right and duty, and the very important thing, the tolerant, so the democracy(not only vote, I don't think democracy=vote) is not easy to be established. This is why in some country the horrible racial genocide happened after democracy was established.

Just look into those mob pretesters in this Tibet event. If we agree Tibet is a part of China, so the Tibetan is minority in this county and Han is majority in this country. So under the Han majority rule, they have the rights to express their will of independence, I'm not sure they really understood this when they pretested, or mere acted as the decree of their living buddha. But if Tibet has become a country, in this country they will become the majority and Han will become minority under their majority rule. Have they prepared to respect the rights of minority? In the moment that they dominated the street, in the moment we all have watched from the video that the mobs and lamas attacted innocent people in the street and burned shops, I doubt as majority they could understand they have duty to protect the right of minority and they could respect other people's freedom.

Just imagine, if a gold asteroid fell in Canada and the Globe Warming made Canada as warm as California so money and space were not the problems of acception of more immigrants, would you or everyone here likely want to have fifty million Tibetan refugee into Canada to share your freedom and democracy? Obvious there are not a lot of guys wanted this, not for racial reason, but for if they came, Canada would soon have an elected Lama PM and become a jape of the world.

Or we assume there were some hostile ET have come to Mars so human being needs to unite its force and the whole world needs to become a "country" to fight the ET. Do you want the "world leader" to be elected? ---That means, those poor low-educated Chinese, Hindus, African peasants will become the majority of the new "country" for they have huge population meanwhile westerners will become the minority and loss the control of the world. Do you want this kind of "democracy" happening? Or do you think Amercian or NATO's "dictatorship" would be better?

If Palestinian accepted that Palestine was a part of Israel, I doubt M.Dancer would agree Palestinian have the rights to elected Israel PM and senator just for he didn't want Israel would become a country to enforce Islamic Law.

If I was a Chinese Canadian, I'm not sure I would agree the way conservative wanted to amend the immigration law. But if CPC wanted to accept 2 million Chinese not 20 thousand a year with the right of election, I'm sure I will be the first one who pretested them---only for fear of the Canada's "system" would soon become as the same as the "system" in China.

[xul]

Perhaps but at least they would not be ruled by foreigners as they are now.

500 years ago, did your ancestors live in the land now are called Canada? To those people whose ancestors lived here before that time, you are the foreigner.

France is in Afghanistan

Yes, but not those torch-snatchers. And I have not doubt most of these guys have also shown the same things when they "prestested" the NATO mission in Afghanistan, the globalization.....and of course the US hegemony---this is why Mr. Bush dislike them, I guess.

I know 2 people who were in Beijing that week, overlooking the square, ducking the bullets and watching the bodies being hurried away.

Lol. Were they astronauts? That Night not that Week I was there, It was dark in the street because the main streetlight was cut off(I think it is to avoid people shooting photo or vedio for the event) so people could hardly discern the object one hundred meters away. I was with a group of people about 500 meter away from the square and I could merely discern the black silhouette of solders' block line about 300 hundred meters away due to there were a armoured vehicle was burning to light them. There were a lot of machine guns's shots, but all toward air or earth for threat. We were not Jedi Knight and had not ability to dudge bullet if they wanted to shot us. I only saw several peope was hitted because the ground around of square was made of granite so some bullet shot at ground bounced and hitted at people. The students retreated from the square at dawn, leading by a Taiwan popular singer named Hou De Jian because all of their elected peasant family born democratic leaders have fled with American and French passports the last afternoon before the shooting began.

All troops was block out side of Beijing downtown in 3rd June afternoon, peacefully with not any bloodshed. But something happened in the western end of Beijing downtown perhaps changed the course of the event. I was not here but someone was here told me, there was a guy who had been a solder in the troop that was blocked in the street. He talk to the solders and according the tradition of my country's respecting of predecessors, the soldiers let him and his friend into the armoured vehicle and he drived the vehicle move along the street, I think they did not understand what they did would lead to serious result. I suppose the rulers wathched on surveillance TV with horror for "mobs" had taken over this powerful weapon, they sent a helicoper hovered above the vichel and broadcasted with a speaker to warn the people must leave the vehicle. Someone on the top of the vihicle aimed the helicopter with the machine gun mounted on the vehicle (ecah China made model 531 armoured vehicle has a machine gun on it) and pulled the trigger, the gun shot. The helicopter fled away and I think this event lead to the communist government eventually made the decesion to crackdown the protest by firepower and convinced army leader because they thought the event had become a riot. I not sure what I said are absolutely truth, but it is coincident with the video China government published later to convince people the crackdown were right and necessary. The most casualty happened in the western end of the city.

Please use your wisdom, Dancer. Could your friend stroll around when communists carryed bodys out of square? What are they? The killers? Or the Chinese peasant refugee seekers who makes up the story for refugee to take Canada welfare and charity funds with out hard working?

If you come Beijing, you will find almost no where can overlook the square because almost no higher buildings laied around several miles away from the square. The emperors did not like pepole to overlook his palace and Mao did not like to be shot by snipers. The only place could overlook the square is the top of Beijng hotel, sites about 2 km away from the square. But I'm no doubt the police will block the top floor if they want to do something they don't want everyone konw.

Edited April 11, 2008 by xul

[xul]

deleted for repeat post

Edited April 11, 2008 by xul

[M.Dancer]

Lol. Were they astronauts?

No they were journalists who watched the carnage from their hotel.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Great, we will never learn. To politicize the Olympics is a very foolish mistake. Especially considering where they are being hosted. The world does not need to cause reasons for China to feel isolated or threatened, such actions will lead to very troubling times.

[bush_cheney2004]

Great, we will never learn. To politicize the Olympics is a very foolish mistake. Especially considering where they are being hosted. The world does not need to cause reasons for China to feel isolated or threatened, such actions will lead to very troubling times.

You mean worse than today? Or yesterday? Tomorrow's potential troubling times have really tough acts to follow.

[August1991]

Great, we will never learn. To politicize the Olympics is a very foolish mistake. Especially considering where they are being hosted. The world does not need to cause reasons for China to feel isolated or threatened, such actions will lead to very troubling times.

The Olympics were politicized in 1936, if not before.

About Tibet, I don't think that Lama's rule would be better than commnunists' rule. And I don't agree the protest was led by Lamas and a living buddha is a good thing. If thoses "great" people in Paris thinks vote is the only way to benifit these tribe people, why doesn't they go to Afghanistan to help NATO to establish a peaceful tribe voting paradigm?

I suspect that xul is a Beijing shill. (I stand corrected. Or perhaps xul is a perfectly normal human being under influence of the Chinese regime.)

If the Chinese government is trying to use the Internet to get its message out, then the Chinese government is truly clueless about the Internet, the Enlightenment and Modern Life. (I hear the question in Beijing: "The Enlightenment? What's that? How can we copy it?")

[charter.rights]

The Olympics were politicized in 1936, if not before.

I suspect that xul is a Beijing shill. (I stand corrected. Or perhaps xul is a perfectly normal human being under influence of the Chinese regime.)

If the Chinese government is trying to use the Internet to get its message out, then the Chinese government is truly clueless about the Internet, the Enlightenment and Modern Life. (I hear the question in Beijing: "The Enlightenment? What's that? How can we copy it?")

If the Chinese government was truly convinced that Communism was a viable and sustainable government system, they would have no trouble with open communication with the rest of the world, or protests that argue against public policy. However, that is the problem. Communism and the Chinese government is such an unstable regime that they cannot risk any other ideas in their citizenry. Therefore they have no choice but to live in a vacuum and to put down those who might want change.

As it stands Tibet should be protected but the UN, even if China objects. The tenet of democracy is choice and the UN stands for democracy.

[Leafless]

My question is: Is TWB's way the way that could be accepted in a democratic country?

Democracy is a misnomer, a fairy tale.

To measure democracy is simply from a + to a -, in relationship to the worlds currently considered (by some countries) most freer country, theoretically speaking of course.

But back to xul's question, in the case of China, TWB should be accepted.

One in five people on this earth is a resident of China, a country that harbours 1.3 billion people.

I believe no form of democracy or the full range of human rights could be applied to a country with a population of this size without unsurmountable problems.

Take Canada for instance with its tiny population of 33-million people has to resort to CULTURAL DISCRIMINATION to enforce its version of human rights.

I respect China and their form of government and believe Tibet is a source of anguish for the Chinese whereas Tibet is obviously influenced by Western ideologies.

Leave China and their way of life alone.

Edited April 12, 2008 by Leafless

[xul]

You mean worse than today? Or yesterday? Tomorrow's potential troubling times have really tough acts to follow.

Don't worry, tomorrow will be great, according the dominative theory in western media. Communism will collapse soon, even if it will not be knocked down by media, it will be knocked down by lack water ,Beijing Games water policy troubling, for communist have pumped each drop of water into the Olympic swimming pools so all corn and wheat will dry to die and 1.3 billion Chinese will uprise for starving.

All honorable so-called China democratic activists will be elected in the future Democratic China, for Chinese people respects their history to bravely fight communist army in Beijing street---if there were someone doubt that, I suggest him to refer to the western newpapers published before and after 4th June, 1989, he would find most of the name of these democratic leaders listed in the paper before 4th June have vanished after 4th June for they have died in the street with those people who had ever trusted them.

Tibet will be a independent country soon and French will soon send its embassador to Tibet though by which way the embassador will go into Tibet will be a problem---landing in the ariport or taking the train which China built for Tibet, or making a donkey ride along the ancient path from India.

American troops will soon withdraw from Europe, for people there have found journalism is the best way to defeat their enemy---form ancient Chinese emperor, to the communists now, and the future ET or something. Everyone knows the main lesson of journalism is Jedism, which give them the ability to dodge bullet to avoid be hitted when they "reported" their "story" of a carnage in the street not their hotel room(everyone will agree with me of that no journalists was hurted in the carnage, so they must have the ability to dodge bullet then they were reporting the event in the street or they were just seating in their hotel room making their "story"), so the Force will be always with them . After the withdrawal of American force, the "reporter without border" will become reality in Europe---in fact everyone there will be without border include Russian .

When everyone in the world has been trembled under the Force of media, the harmonious world will be reached and communist's chairman will be gritified for he at least has successfully predicted one thing.

Of course, there is nothing perfect. After all thing above was achieved, we still left one thing to our children which they need to deal with---the new kind of tyranny of the Force of media which dominated everyone's daily life.

[bush_cheney2004]

Of course, there is nothing perfect. After all thing above was achieved, we still left one thing to our children which they need to deal with---the new kind of tyranny of the Force of media which dominated everyone's daily life.

The force of media is much exaggerated....gone are the heady days of napalmed children in Vietnam. Media "failed" the Truthers about 9/11 and in Iraq....they will try to regroup and win Pulitzer Prizes with Tibet, long ago a part of China.

[xul]

I suspect that xul is a Beijing shill. (I stand corrected. Or perhaps xul is a perfectly normal human being under influence of the Chinese regime.)

Please read the latest my response to bush_cheney2004.....I have become a western media's shill or perhaps a faithful believer.

If the Chinese government is trying to use the Internet to get its message out, then the Chinese government is truly clueless about the Internet, the Enlightenment and Modern Life. (I hear the question in Beijing: "The Enlightenment? What's that? How can we copy it?")

If the media you deeply trusted reported honestly the view point and evidence of both side not only one side to let readers to make themselves judgement, why would Chinese government need to send its message out by internet?

[Leafless]

Democracy is a misnomer, a fairy tale.

To measure democracy is simply from a + to a -, in relationship to the worlds currently considered (by some countries) most freer country, theoretically speaking of course.

But back to xul's question, in the case of China, TWB should be accepted.

One in five people on this earth is a resident of China, a country that harbours 1.3 billion people.

I believe no form of democracy or the full range of human rights could be applied to a country with a population of this size without unsurmountable problems.

Take Canada for instance with its tiny population of 33-million people has to resort to CULTURAL DISCRIMINATION to enforce its version of human rights.

I respect China and their form of government and believe Tibet is a source of anguish for the Chinese whereas Tibet is obviously influenced by Western ideologies.

Leave China and their way of life alone.

[HisSelf]

The fall of democracy? Ha ha. Good one. I love it.

There is no pure democracy in the world today, but if there were, it would have nothing to do with China.

XUL, you are either very naive or very disengenuous.