Did the Holocaust really happen?

[Brain Candy]

But, again, this doesnt bring up the issue of how SILENCING debate on this issue is better then proving the more educated people in the opposition wrong in an academic setting. But I think you'll find the "to what extent" and "how" questions are the main aspects of this where the answers remain unclear.

Edited March 12, 2008 by Brain Candy

[White Doors]

But, again, this doesnt bring up the issue of how SILENCING debate on this issue is better then proving the more educated people in the opposition wrong in an academic setting. But I think you'll find the "to what extent" and "how" questions are the main aspects of this where the answers remain unclear.

If you defintion of unclear is that vague you must also question the validity of the American civil war. Did ti really happen? If so, did it happen to the extent that they say it did? How did it happen?

If your questions of 'how' and 'to what extent' are only in relation to the holocaust, ergo you are an anti-semite or you have anti-semite leanings.

If you equally apply these questions to all historical facts then you are probably a revisionist conspiracy whacko.

So, the ball is in your court.

Have you ever questioned the 'how' and 'to what extent' of the American civil war?

Thank you!

Edited March 12, 2008 by White Doors

[DogOnPorch]

White Doors: If you defintion of unclear is that vague you must also question the validity of the American civil war. Did ti really happen? If so, did it happen to the extent that they say it did? How did it happen?

Excellent point re: revisionism...and an excellent example. Most folks not up on the US Civil War have zero clue what went on but trust the history books to tell them. Not so with the Holocaust, apparently. History books become 'lies written by the victor', and such.

However, in one of these threads we had someone...forget who...start revising the Revolutionary War. So anything is possible. Maybe the Confederacy will become a fashionable cause for the protest-crowd at some point in the future.(?)

Norman Finkelstein speaks out about Lincoln's lies! Bull Run was a false-flag black-op by Unionist neo-cons! Zionist cabal responsible for Antietam! Gettysburg Address: formula for fascism! Do slaves really want freedoom? They sing such happy tunes in the cotton fields...etc etc.

---------------------------------------------------------------

Are you gonna go my way?

---Lenny Kravitz

[Brain Candy]

If you defintion of unclear is that vague you must also question the validity of the American civil war. Did ti really happen? If so, did it happen to the extent that they say it did? How did it happen?

If your questions of 'how' and 'to what extent' are only in relation to the holocaust, ergo you are an anti-semite or you have anti-semite leanings.

If you equally apply these questions to all historical facts then you are probably a revisionist conspiracy whacko.

So, the ball is in your court.

Have you ever questioned the 'how' and 'to what extent' of the American civil war?

Thank you!

I know you think you're being clever, but this is totally irrelevant to what im saying, because people dont get put in jail or deported for disputing aspects of the the civil war.

I recognize that some people bring up totally insane theories through distorted facts, but we still dont deport them. You do however realize that even written history is changed, or made clearer, when new facts are drawn to attention and are made open to debate academically?

...and of course history is written by the winners, and usually with at least a minor bit of bias. Thats why other historians come along later to re-examine it.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Brain Candy

[White Doors]

I know you think you're being clever, but this is totally irrelevant to what im saying, because people dont get put in jail or deported for disputing aspects of the the civil war.

I recognize that some people bring up totally insane theories through distorted facts, but we still dont deport them. You do however realize that even written history is changed, or made clearer, when new facts are drawn to attention and are made open to debate academically?

...and of course history is written by the winners, and usually with at least a minor bit of bias. Thats why other historians come along later to re-examine it.

Way to avoid the question.

My post was way over your head I'm assuming?

Some people hate Jewish people - plain and simple. That is the motivation for questioning the holocaust.

No one questions the American civil war. I'm just trying to help you out here.

The one person you cited, Irving, is an anti-semite. Hence they have an agenda.

Therefore they are not serious historians, merely hatemongers. Why are you insisting on being led down the garden path by a hatemonger? Are you a hatemonger too?

What facts of the American civil war have changed?

[Army Guy]

Someone asked how it was possiable to gas millions , below is a site that breaks it all down, check the math it works out, it was more than possiable

death camp.

how they died

Edited March 13, 2008 by Army Guy

[Brain Candy]

Way to avoid the question.

My post was way over your head I'm assuming?

No, but its a derailer tactic, because I dont believe we should listen to every nutjob with an uneducated opinion on issues, but...

a) I don't think they should be deported from countries, and...

I think Irving, who was never a best selling historian but whose merits were never criticised UNTIL he brought up some issues on the holocaust, should be debated and debunked instead of shunned.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Brain Candy

[Drea]

Way to avoid the question.

My post was way over your head I'm assuming?

Some people hate Jewish people - plain and simple. That is the motivation for questioning the holocaust.

No one questions the American civil war. I'm just trying to help you out here.

The one person you cited, Irving, is an anti-semite. Hence they have an agenda.

Therefore they are not serious historians, merely hatemongers. Why are you insisting on being led down the garden path by a hatemonger? Are you a hatemonger too?

What facts of the American civil war have changed?

It is not considered hate speech to talk about Yankees and Moronic Slave Lovin' Black Hatin' Southerners... yet it is hate speech to ask questions about the Jews in relation to the holocaust.

I have no hate on for Jews -- why would I? They've never done anything to me -- and I happen to think Rue is one of the most sane posters here. And a good friend of mine is Jewish -- she's a financial analyst -- whoda guessed it LOL

[M.Dancer]

I think Irving, who was never a best selling historian but whose merits were never criticised UNTIL he brought up some issues on the holocaust, should be debated and debunked instead of shunned.

He has been debated, he has been debunked. Irving if you remember sued one of his debunkers for libel.

He lost.

He isn't shunned by the way, he has a rather large folowing of white supremists, neo nazis and other assorted idiots...

[White Doors]

No, but its a derailer tactic, because I dont believe we should listen to every nutjob with an uneducated opinion on issues, but...

a) I don't think they should be deported from countries, and...

I think Irving, who was never a best selling historian but whose merits were never criticised UNTIL he brought up some issues on the holocaust, should be debated and debunked instead of shunned.

Ok, you keep weaving.

I didn't say they should be charged.

deported however? The germans are asking that we deport a person. We deport. Enitrely different issue.

[White Doors]

It is not considered hate speech to talk about Yankees and Moronic Slave Lovin' Black Hatin' Southerners... yet it is hate speech to ask questions about the Jews in relation to the holocaust.

I have no hate on for Jews -- why would I? They've never done anything to me -- and I happen to think Rue is one of the most sane posters here. And a good friend of mine is Jewish -- she's a financial analyst -- whoda guessed it LOL

I made no statement in regards to any hate speech laws either way.

In fact, i think they should be done away with.

None of this changes the fact that people who question the Holocaust do so out of an agenda of hatred.

that's all.

By the way, it is not illegal to question the holocaust in Canada so I have no idea what you are talking about except to try and get a dig in on the Americans, again.

Edited March 14, 2008 by White Doors

[Drea]

... the opposite actually... I thought it was considered "hate speech" in Canada.

Wasn't Zundel deported to Germany from Canada for denying the holocaust?

I didn't follow the story very closely so I could be wrong.

[Regulus de Leo]

... the opposite actually... I thought it was considered "hate speech" in Canada.

Wasn't Zundel deported to Germany from Canada for denying the holocaust?

I didn't follow the story very closely so I could be wrong.

Zundel was deported because he was not a Canadian citizen (never applied for it) and he hadn't been resident in Canada for years. He was apprehended on a national security certificate (where was Naomi Klein and Avi Lewis to stand up for his freedom? AWOL....guess he shoulda gone Muslim to get their attention) and he was wanted in Germany so he was shipped out there.

Here's a Holocaust revisionist in action....says 50-60 Jews died in the Holocaust....

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1711.htm

[DogOnPorch]

Zundel was deported because he was not a Canadian citizen (never applied for it) and he hadn't been resident in Canada for years. He was apprehended on a national security certificate (where was Naomi Klein and Avi Lewis to stand up for his freedom? AWOL....guess he shoulda gone Muslim to get their attention) and he was wanted in Germany so he was shipped out there.

Here's a Holocaust revisionist in action....says 50-60 Jews died in the Holocaust....

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1711.htm

That clip was from Feb. 29th, 2008. By Dr. Walid Al-Rashudi the head of the Department of Islamic Studies at King Saud University, Saudi Arabia. Amazing.

-----------------------------------------

Old man river, that old man river--

He must know sumthin'--

But, he don't say nuthin'--

He just keeps rollin'--just keeps rollin' along...

---Showboat

[AngusThermopyle]

Nice fella. Its too bad the clip cuts off where it does, I would have liked to see what he thinks will satisfy them if killing all the Jews wouldn't do it.

[Rue]

It is not considered hate speech to talk about Yankees and Moronic Slave Lovin' Black Hatin' Southerners... yet it is hate speech to ask questions about the Jews in relation to the holocaust.

I have no hate on for Jews -- why would I? They've never done anything to me -- and I happen to think Rue is one of the most sane posters here. And a good friend of mine is Jewish -- she's a financial analyst -- whoda guessed it LOL

Drea give me a second. I think you would find most Jewish people probably would agree with you, that telling you not to ask questions about the holocaust is stupid, dumb, what-ever...how else can anyone learn if they do not ask. That point you are making which I know is what you are saying, surely we all agree with.

But that is not really the issue we are talking about. Questioning what happened is a good thing. But questioning what happened is different then someone who isn't questioning but in fact playing semantic games, word games to couch the fact he is denying.

You Drea are a direct person. You don't mince your words. But some do. Someone like you will say, hey I have questions, I want some answers. However soem others, aren't really asking questions. They seek to take something that happened and deny it for a political agenda.

Hey Drea no I don't want to go down that slippery rope of censoring people particularly people we think are deliberately being hateful. Look how hard it is when the moderators have to do it on this forum.

But here is what I am getting at and I believe its what others on this set of posts and White Door are getting at.

You want to question-question-but if you want to deny something or say it aint so, then you have to do more then simply deny and demand others prove...you have to make an effort to find out what it is you are talking about.

Now those laws about the holocaust Drea are not what many think they are. The laws in Germany and France, and you really have to read them, and see how they are applied in their courts-they are actually not used because someone asks questions the holocaust. They are used in exceptional circumstances when someone is engaging in deliberate, provocative denial in a context designed to incite hatred against Jews or Romanoes. The closest analogy I can think of is how the moderators on this post have to decide when to let something go and when to stop it. Its a very fine line.

That is why Germany and France have such laws. In both countries race hate mongers have used the holocaust as a pretense to engage in race riots. They are not questioning how the holocaust happened, they deny it ever happened and they go further and call Jews liars which means all the people who died because of Nazis also didn't die.

In Canada, the U.S. and Britain as well as Australia and New Zealand, our laws on hate have not been used to punish people for questioning about the holocaust. They have been rarely invoked when the holocaust was being denied.

The two most famous cases are the Jim Keegstra case in New Brunswick where a teacher taught his students the holocaust was a lie and the Ernst Zundel case. In the Keegstra case, he violated the school curriculum and openly made hateful comments that incited high school students to call Jews liars. I was there. I saw it first hand as a law student.

In the case of Zundel, his web-site and group of people engaged in vandalism, assault and batteries, drug selling and their words on their answering machine messages and on the web-site contained numerous references to Jews being liars. So it wasn't a matter of questioning what happened and not just denying the holocaust but using the denial one step further to incite violence.

Surely we all have to work to answer anyone's question on the holocaust or steer them to an information web site, if they want to genuinely find out as well as Darfur, the Ukrainian mass murders, Holikidor) the Armenian genocide, etc. we have to learn about them all if we are to stop them from happening again.

Its also not an accident you often get military men who answer holocaust deniers. They may not be Jewish but it is no different to them then when we deny what they went through. They know when someone is jerking memories around and trying to make a fool out of others sufferings. Its like denying what they had to go through. War Vets are no different then holocaust survivors or other genocide survivors. They suffer the exact same problems.

I had an Uncle who was a psychiatrist in the US Army that liberated a camp. I also met American and British soldiers who were there. As a Jew I had relatives who lived in it but it meant something when ex-soldiers explained it-these were men trained to follow a code of honour and were genuinely humiliated by their role as liberators. Their humility as to what happened that is the most powerful history lesson there is. They don't even say much. It's just the tear in their eye or the lack of words. They had to see hell in the war in one sense, and then this other hell which explained why they went through their hell. It is an awful lot to ask anyone to try understand. It of course overwhelmed them and they were never the same, ever, justa s every war vet is never the same-they literally lose part of their soul-a chunk of it is taken out.

Steven Spielberg created a living testament by survivors precisely so when people question it, they have somewhere to go to. Drea anyone can go to the Spielberg site or visit the holocaust museum in Washington or visit many other sites to find out what happened.

Lol Drea this is not about you or anyone else wanting questioning things, its about how some NOT ALL have no interest at all in questioning and are only interested in making a statement.

I never met anyone from the holocaust who claims to fully understand it or know what went on. So many of their questions will never be answered. So don't get me wrong Drea, I learned from them when we stop asking, it may mean if we weer not the victims we no longer care and hopefully if we are the victims we have learned to let it go.

Edited March 20, 2008 by Rue

[OneNoShine]

Yes and only idiots try to justify their anti-semitism by denying it. It may be a little over-fluctuated but the idea that it didnt happen is usually done to make Nazism seem OK. Anyone who believes it did not happen or the 300 000 figure is either a Nazi or an idiot.

[M.Dancer]

...or both.

[Wilber]

...or both.

Most likely.

[socred]

Way to avoid the question.

My post was way over your head I'm assuming?

Some people hate Jewish people - plain and simple. That is the motivation for questioning the holocaust.

And this is the reason you will never have an honest debate on this subject. Look at the reasoning: "If you 'question' the holocaust in any way, you are an 'anti-semite". Of course, anyone with any intelligence knows that the truth is arrived at through a dialectical process of debate. What the Jews want to do is silence all debate on this subject.

My only question is what is the political motivations for this course of action? And are all the people who value freedom going to allow them to get away with it?

[White Doors]

And this is the reason you will never have an honest debate on this subject. Look at the reasoning: "If you 'question' the holocaust in any way, you are an 'anti-semite". Of course, anyone with any intelligence knows that the truth is arrived at through a dialectical process of debate. What the Jews want to do is silence all debate on this subject.

My only question is what is the political motivations for this course of action? And are all the people who value freedom going to allow them to get away with it?

Way over your head I assume.

Ok, you tell me the motivation of someone saying either the Holocaust did not happen or that it was much smaller than advertised. It is one of the most documented historical facts that we have.

It is better doocumented than the American civil war. You tell me why people question the veracity of the Holocaust but not the American civil war. Tell me.

If you are honest you will say it is because of anti-semitism.

If people are afraid to discuss the holocaust intelligently and honestly because they may be branded an anti-semite - won't happen. Why? Because if you are honest and intelligent you will look at the facts and discover that it did indeed happen and it happened as advertised.

Plain and simple.

And I'm not Jewish. Your last sentence leaves alot to be desired.

[Rue]

Look at the reasoning: "If you 'question' the holocaust in any way, you are an 'anti-semite". ... What the Jews want to do is silence all debate on this subject.

So let's look at your reasoning. You come on this forum to state two generalizations. The first states that ANY one who questions the holocaust is being accused of being an anti-semite. You provide no examples of this making it clear this is a subjective generalization you render which is not based on objective and quatified fact but simply your subjective feelings. That Sir makes it suspect and quite frankly absurd as you are not in the position to speak for or assume anything about anyone's motives or thoughts but your own.

You then state a deliberate anti-semitic slur which is precisely the example of why people would accuse you NOT ANYONE else of being an anti-semite. It has nothing to do with questioning the holocaust and everything to do with you making a deliberate slur and choosing to engage in a negative generalization and characteristic you assign to all Jews.That Sir is bigoted and a blatant example of what is called out as anti-semitic.

You came on this post to lecture people that they should engage in a dialectic process. So explain how making negative and absurd generalizations about what people think and what their motives are engages in a dialectic process. How is it anything but Jew baiting? How does it do anything but try incite intolerance and hatred of Jews and resentment towards Jews?

You Sir do not engage in a dialectic process.

Are you capable of discussing anything without race baiting or is that your agenda?

Where?

Edited April 2, 2008 by Rue

[Rue]

And are all the people who value freedom going to allow them to get away with it?

Well. The word "them" refers to Jews. The context you use it in is that Jews are engaged in a conspiracy to accuse anyone who questions the holocaust of being anti-semitic. That is the context in which you advanced it.

So explain what you mean by this question. Are you suggesting Jews should be arrested? What would you do? Care to spell it out or do you wish to couch your words so we know what you mean but you can avoid saying it? Do you care to do more then cast inneuendoes?

[socred]

Way over your head I assume.

Ok, you tell me the motivation of someone saying either the Holocaust did not happen or that it was much smaller than advertised. It is one of the most documented historical facts that we have.

It is better doocumented than the American civil war. You tell me why people question the veracity of the Holocaust but not the American civil war. Tell me.

You tell me the political motivation for arresting people for merely expressing their opinion?

When someone makes the claim that the number of people killed during the holocaust is less that 6 million, how is that a crime?

If you are honest you will say it is because of anti-semitism.

Can you say "begging the question"?

If people are afraid to discuss the holocaust intelligently and honestly because they may be branded an anti-semite - won't happen.

Happens all the time.

Why? Because if you are honest and intelligent you will look at the facts and discover that it did indeed happen and it happened as advertised.

Exactly, how did it happen?

Show me the evidence that 6 million people were killed, and I'm not just talking a page of names of people killed, I'm talking about evidence that exactly 6 million peoeple were killed during the holocaust. I'm willing to look at anything you show me.

And I'm not Jewish. Your last sentence leaves alot to be desired.

I don't care if you're Jewish, Hindu, pink or brown.

Edited April 2, 2008 by socred

[socred]

Well. The word "them" refers to Jews. The context you use it in is that Jews are engaged in a conspiracy to accuse anyone who questions the holocaust of being anti-semitic. That is the context in which you advanced it.

Actually, the word "them" refers to anyone who wants to limit our freedoms.

Organizations such as the ADL and the JDL have conspired to accuse anyone who questions the holocaust as being anti-semetic. In fact, they've conspired to create laws to have these people put in jail.

So explain what you mean by this question. Are you suggesting Jews should be arrested? What would you do? Care to spell it out or do you wish to couch your words so we know what you mean but you can avoid saying it? Do you care to do more then cast inneuendoes?

Jews should never be arrested because they are Jews. They should be arrested if they commit a crime.

I'm not the one casting innuenedos.