Did the Holocaust really happen?

[White Doors]

What connection? The religions of Judaism has been based in this area for millenia.

Here are some rhetorical questions for you to answer:

What connections does the Muslim faith have to Israel if any? Is it valid?

When did the term 'palestinians' come about?

What country are the palestinians really from?

What motivates someone to down-play the holocaust?

What motivates someone to make a connection between 'Zionism' and Nazi's?

[White Doors]

And why was a nation given to the practictioners of Judaism?

Why? isn't that self evident?

Because of the holocaust and the brutal discrimination that they have faced in every society that they have been a part of for thousands of years.

Why can't the jews have a country of their own?

The Christians do. The Muslims do.

Do you agree that the Jews should be able to have one, just one?

Do you agree that in light of the severe persecution that they faced that is unique in the history of man that it is too much to ask that they are afforded their own country?

If so, why?

[Guest American Woman]

This is comical, and so obvious. It's the childish act of deflection, and does not in any way answer my questions.

There's nothing "deflective" about it, and the only thing "comical and childish" is your insistance that Jews are given citizenship in Israel based solely upon their religion. This citizenship is not granted to any other religion.-- When I've clearly pointed out that only 76.4% of Israel's population is Jewish.

[DogOnPorch]

Without getting into debates about what constitutes a race, I must assume you agree that converts to Judaism are "Jews"?

Yes, I do. The Einsatzgruppen thought so as well.

Russian husbands were walking with their Jewish wives. Russian wives were walking with their Jewish husbands. When we approached Babi Yar I heard shooting and inhuman shouting. I started to grasp what was going on but did not say anything to my mother.

When we entered through the gates we were ordered to turn in our papers and valuables and undress. A German came over to my mother and tore a gold ring off her finger. Only then mother said "Dinochka, you are Pronicheva, you are Russian. You should survive. Rush to your children. You should live for them."

But I could not flee. We were surrounded by fascists with submachine guns, Ukrainian policemen, and ferocious dogs who were ready to tear a human being to pieces. And then, I could not leave my mother alone. I embraced her, burst into tears but was unable to leave her. Mother pushed me away and yelled "Hurry!"

I went to a table at which a fat officer was seated, showed him my passport and said quietly, "I am Russian." He was contemplating my passport when a policeman came over and barked, "Don't believe her, she's a Kike. We know her..." The German told me to step aside and wait.

---Dina Mironovna Vasserman

----------------------------------------

Alas, I think I am becoming a god.

---Titus

[jbg]

The point is that Jews are given citizenship in Israel based solely upon their religion. This citizenship is not granted to any other religion. What connection to the land in Israel did Sammy Davis Jr. have which any Christian or Muslim did not?

Bull. Non-Jews can become citizens of Israel. They just cannot avail themselves of the Law of Return, which gives expedited and automatic citizenship to Jews. Non-Jews can apply through normal immigration channels similar to those employed by Canada, the UK and the US.

[Rue]

I find it disturbing that your post refers to 'Zionists' and describes Neo-Nazi Ernst Zundel as a 'political prisoner'.

The people who quarrel with the numbers start with the numbers but end with Zionist conspiracy theories.

It shouldn't suprise you at all. Lol. The one thing that is consistent is their transparency.

Edited February 28, 2008 by Rue

[socred]

What connection? The religions of Judaism has been based in this area for millenia.

Here are some rhetorical questions for you to answer:

What connections does the Muslim faith have to Israel if any? Is it valid?

When did the term 'palestinians' come about?

What country are the palestinians really from?

What motivates someone to down-play the holocaust?

What motivates someone to make a connection between 'Zionism' and Nazi's?

The religions of Christianity and Islam have been based there for millenia. I'm not going to answer any questions about Palestinians and Muslims because I'm neither.

Please show me where I've "down-played the holocaust".

My motivation for making a connection between Zionism and the Nazis is the search for the truth.

[socred]

Why? isn't that self evident?

Because of the holocaust and the brutal discrimination that they have faced in every society that they have been a part of for thousands of years.

Why can't the jews have a country of their own?

The Christians do. The Muslims do.

Do you agree that the Jews should be able to have one, just one?

Do you agree that in light of the severe persecution that they faced that is unique in the history of man that it is too much to ask that they are afforded their own country?

If so, why?

Christians don't have a country of their own. This is absolutely false. Show me one nation on earth were you are granted citizenship based upon the sole fact that you are a Christian.

No, I do not think any religion should have a "country of their own". And again, no I do not thing that the persecution of Jews is "unique in the history of man". There have been many people persecuted over the course of the history of man, but I'm sure many Jews want us to believe that it is unique to them.

Edited February 28, 2008 by socred

[socred]

There's nothing "deflective" about it, and the only thing "comical and childish" is your insistance that Jews are given citizenship in Israel based solely upon their religion. This citizenship is not granted to any other religion.-- When I've clearly pointed out that only 76.4% of Israel's population is Jewish.

This is a total misreprentation of what I said. I didn't say that ONLY Jews were allowed to immigrate to Israel. I claimed that all Jews in the world have the right to immigrate to Israel.

"The Law of Return declares that Israel constitutes a home not only for the inhabitants of the State, but also for all members of the Jewish people everywhere - be they living in poverty and fear of persecution or in affluence and safety."

Law of Return

[socred]

Yes, I do. The Einsatzgruppen thought so as well.

Yes, the Nazis thought that Jews were a race, which also makes them similar to Zionists in another way.

[socred]

Bull. Non-Jews can become citizens of Israel. They just cannot avail themselves of the Law of Return, which gives expedited and automatic citizenship to Jews. Non-Jews can apply through normal immigration channels similar to those employed by Canada, the UK and the US.

I never said non-Jews couldn't immigrate to Israel. What I said was that Jews all over the world were given the right to immigrate to Israel through the law of return. My question was which other nation allows all people of a given religion automatic citizenship besides Israel?

[socred]

It shouldn't suprise you at all. Lol. The one thing that is consistent is their transparency.

Who's "they"?

[jbg]

Enough. Don't feed the troll!!!

[socred]

Enough. Don't feed the troll!!!

Ahhh, when you can't defend your position with logic, out comes the ad-hominem.

Brilliant!

[Guest American Woman]

I never said non-Jews couldn't immigrate to Israel. What I said was that Jews all over the world were given the right to immigrate to Israel through the law of return. My question was which other nation allows all people of a given religion automatic citizenship besides Israel?

And my point is that all Jews aren't granted automatic citizenship; and non-Jews are also given citizenship under the Law of Return. In fact, the majority of recent immigrants from Russia under the Law of Return aren't Jewish. And has been pointed out repeatedly, the Law of Return is only one way to achieve citizenship in Israel.

Whether you agree with Israel's citizenship policies or not, every country has a right to determine its citizenship status/requirements. Because you disagree with it hardly makes it wrong. Whether automatic citizenship, ie: a Law of Return, is based on religion or nationality, it's the nation's in question right to make determinations of citizenship. Just like it's a nation's right to determine who can enter their country and under what conditions.

Edited February 28, 2008 by American Woman

[socred]

And my point is that all Jews aren't granted automatic citizenship; and non-Jews are also given citizenship under the Law of Return. In fact, the majority of recent immigrants from Russia under the Law of Return aren't Jewish. And has been pointed out repeatedly, the Law of Return is only one way to achieve citizenship in Israel.

Whether you agree with Israel's citizenship policies or not, every country has a right to determine its citizenship status/requirements. Because you disagree with it hardly makes it wrong. Whether automatic citizenship is based on religion or nationality, it's the nation's in question right to make determinations of citizenship. Just like it's a nation's right to determine who can enter their country and under what conditions.

Just because every country has a right to make its own laws does not mean those laws are moral!

Nazi Germany had the right to make its own laws as well. Does that mean it was alright to exterminate Jews because it was German law? After all, every country has a right to establish its own laws.

Edited February 28, 2008 by socred

[Guest American Woman]

Just because every country has a right to make its own laws does not mean those laws are moral!

Nazi Germany had the right to make its own laws as well. Does that mean it was alright to exterminate Jews because it was German law? After all, every country has a right to establish its own laws.

Talk about misrepresenting what I said. I said "all nations have a right to determine citizenship status/requirements," and they do. That's a far cry from establishing national laws that are against international law. If you can show me where Israel is breaking international law, please cite your evidence. But in light of what you're saying here, are you saying that a country should have to answer to the rest of the world regarding their citizenship requirements? And who would get to make that "moral" call?

A question of what's "moral" is a very personal thing. While one may think it's immoral to have sex before marriage, another may think it's perfectly within the definition of morality; it's a matter of one's own personal opinion. On the other hand, killing people goes beyond what's "moral," into the area of what's most definitley "wrong," and I'm guessing you already knew that.

Futhermore, you completely dismissed the fact that "all Jews" aren't granted automatic citizenship and non-Jews are also allowed citizenship under Israel's Law of Return, which makes your previous claims false.

Now. Just out of curiosity. What is your opinion of Germany's Law of Return?

Edited February 28, 2008 by American Woman

[socred]

Talk about misrepresenting what I said. I said "all nations have a right to determine citizenship status/requirements," and they do. That's a far cry from establishing national laws that are against international law. If you can show me where Israel is breaking international law, please cite your evidence. But in light of what you're saying here, are you saying that a country should have to answer to the rest of the world regarding their citizenship requirements? And who would get to make that "moral" call?

A question of what's "moral" is a very personal thing. While one may think it's immoral to have sex before marriage, another may think it's perfectly within the definition of morality; it's a matter of one's own personal opinion. On the other hand, killing people goes beyond what's "moral," into the area of what's most definitley "wrong," and I'm guessing you already knew that.

Futhermore, you completely dismissed the fact that "all Jews" aren't granted automatic citizenship and non-Jews are also allowed citizenship under Israel's Law of Return, which makes your previous claims false.

Now. Just out of curiosity. What is your opinion of Germany's Law of Return?

Interesting, then you believe that a country should uphold international law?

I'm not really familiar with Germany's law of return, but perhaps you would like to enlighten me so I could decide what I think about it.

[Guest American Woman]

Interesting, then you believe that a country should uphold international law?

I'm not really familiar with Germany's law of return, but perhaps you would like to enlighten me so I could decide what I think about it.

For the most part, yes, I do. But you'll have to find information on Germany's Law of Return yourself. The fact that you're so adamant about Israel's, and not even interested enough about Germany's to find out the information on your own, is very telling.

And once more I'm pointing out that your claims regarding Israel were false. Is simply ignoring it the way you deal with being wrong?

Edited February 29, 2008 by American Woman

[socred]

For the most part, yes, I do. But you'll have to find information on Germany's Law of Return yourself. The fact that you're so adamant about Israel's, and not even interested enough about Germany's to find out the information on your own, is very telling.

And once more I'm pointing out that your claims regarding Israel were false. Is simply ignoring it the way you deal with being wrong?

What do you mean "for the most part"? Do you mean nations get to pick and choose which international laws they choose to follow?

I never said I wasn't interested in Germany's right of return law. In fact, I asked you to explain it so that I may give you my opinion on it. I merely said that I did not know enough about it to comment.

Which claims that I made about Israel are false? I have addressed every email directed towards me, and have made a point of doing it.

[Guest American Woman]

What do you mean "for the most part"? Do you mean nations get to pick and choose which international laws they choose to follow?

I never said I wasn't interested in Germany's right of return law. In fact, I asked you to explain it so that I may give you my opinion on it. I merely said that I did not know enough about it to comment.

Which claims that I made about Israel are false? I have addressed every email directed towards me, and have made a point of doing it.

I added "for the most part" because there are those who like to play word games and point out some obscure law that was on the books way back when and also because laws aren't written in stone, and can and do change. So rather than play word games, I included "for the most part."

I never said you weren't interested in it; just that you weren't interested enough to look into it yourself, in spite of your adamant views about Israel's, which, as I said, is telling.

As for the false claims you made about Israel, I've only pointed them out at least three times in my last posts. Go back and read them yourself as I'm not interested in playing 'cat and mouse' with you. After doing that, if you still choose to ignore it, I'll know all I need to know because so far you've been very particular regarding what you choose to respond to in my posts and what you choose to ignore.

[Topaz]

Someone should ask people who don't believe it happen to explain the pictures the Germans took of the bodies in the trenches. The first time I saw about the killing of the Jews it was on "Twentieth Century" with Walter Cronkite. They also showed the people lines up naked to the ovens, I don't they were actors.

[jbg]

Just because every country has a right to make its own laws does not mean those laws are moral!

Nazi Germany had the right to make its own laws as well. Does that mean it was alright to exterminate Jews because it was German law? After all, every country has a right to establish its own laws.

Below are excerpts from a book review in the New York Times Review of Books (link). What more, on the reality of the Holocaust, can anyone say?:

Mendelsohn begins his account with a startling childhood experience: at gatherings of his extended family, many of them survivors of the massacred Jewish community of Bolechow, Poland (now Ukraine), “it would occasionally happen that I would walk into a room and certain people would begin to cry.” They would cry because of his startling resemblance to a distant relative among the dead, his great-uncle Shmiel Jäger, a meat shipper in Bolechow who was murdered by the Nazis along with his wife, Ester, and their four daughters.

Mendelsohn’s initial quest to find out what actually happened to Shmiel and his family — the details of the fate they shared with millions — begins with normal, if death-inflected, genealogical curiosity. But when he discovers a series of increasingly desperate letters from Shmiel to his family in America, written in 1939 as events close in on Bolechow’s Jews, he is drawn into an obsessive multi-continent search that recreates the life of the Lost as well as their annihilation. The result is a new way of telling a story we thought we knew.

***********

It’s a sentiment that can seem like a challenge to his entire enterprise. But Mendelsohn also seems to suggest that we can’t look forward until we look back, until we know how we came to be who we are — until we know what we have lost. He tries to look back — to see the horror of annihilation — through the eyes of the single family he has brought back to life. He speaks of “what it would have been like, as a 16-year-old, perhaps oversheltered girl of a certain era, to witness other people being killed, tortured, raped, shot. To watch, for instance ... as the rabbi you have known since you were a young child has his eyes cut out, has a cross cut into his chest, and is then forced to dance naked with another terrified young woman.”

***********

And if one thinks one has lost one’s capacity for horror at the depths of human nature, consider this, from an eyewitness deposition he finds about the second roundup of Bolechow Jews: “A terrible episode happened with Mrs. Grynberg. The Ukrainians and the Germans who had broken into her house found her giving birth. ... When the birth pangs started she was dragged onto a dumpster in the yard of the town hall with a crowd ... who cracked jokes and jeered and watched the pain of childbirth. ... The child was immediately torn from her arms along with its umbilical cord and thrown — It was trampled by the crowd and she was stood on her feet as blood poured out of her with her bleeding bits hanging.”

[Brain Candy]

I dont think a conspiracy of this magnitude is possible, what is possible is that...

A) the majority died of starvation as Germany's supply got thin, not poison gas.

B)The numbers at least on the communist side were grossely exaggerated for propaganda effect.

so I dont think its out of the question for more research to be done on both these topics, and anyone who equates questioning aspects of the holocaust at an academic level, as Irving did, with "Holocaust denial." is a moron, or letting their emotions get the better of them or is doing so for political purposes.

As a side note I honestly think the way Irving was treated was a disgrace and adds fuel to the crackpots on either side that think with their emotions and politics before logic. It also raises the question; is it possible to ever find real truth on controversial issues?

Edited February 29, 2008 by Brain Candy

[socred]

I added "for the most part" because there are those who like to play word games and point out some obscure law that was on the books way back when and also because laws aren't written in stone, and can and do change. So rather than play word games, I included "for the most part."

I never said you weren't interested in it; just that you weren't interested enough to look into it yourself, in spite of your adamant views about Israel's, which, as I said, is telling.

As for the false claims you made about Israel, I've only pointed them out at least three times in my last posts. Go back and read them yourself as I'm not interested in playing 'cat and mouse' with you. After doing that, if you still choose to ignore it, I'll know all I need to know because so far you've been very particular regarding what you choose to respond to in my posts and what you choose to ignore.

This is what is known in psychology as "projection".

I'm not the one playing word games.

You said you think countries should abide by international law "for the most part", and I asked you if you believe countries can pick and choose which international laws they will follow - you did not reply.

You asked me if I knew about Germany's right of return law, I answered that I did not, and asked you to post it so I can look at it and comment - you did not.

You say that I've made false claims about Israel, I asked you to post those claims - you did not.

You say I've ignored something that you've posted, and I claimed I tried to answer every post directed towards me, and to please repost what you thought I ignored - you did not.

You are the one trying to play word games and a game of cat and mouse.

If you want me to answer something specific, post it. Otherwise, don't waste my time.