Did the Holocaust really happen?

[White Doors]

The religions of Christianity and Islam have been based there for millenia. I'm not going to answer any questions about Palestinians and Muslims because I'm neither.

Please show me where I've "down-played the holocaust".

My motivation for making a connection between Zionism and the Nazis is the search for the truth.

WRONG

Islam is 'based' in Mecca. Israel is not very holy land to Islam at all despite your thinking that it is.

Apparently your search for the TRVTH is pretty shallow.

[socred]

I dont think a conspiracy of this magnitude is possible, what is possible is that...

A) the majority died of starvation as Germany's supply got thin, not poison gas.

B)The numbers at least on the communist side were grossely exaggerated for propaganda effect.

so I dont think its out of the question for more research to be done on both these topics, and anyone who equates questioning aspects of the holocaust at an academic level, as Irving did, with "Holocaust denial." is a moron, or letting their emotions get the better of them or is doing so for political purposes.

As a side note I honestly think the way Irving was treated was a disgrace and adds fuel to the crackpots on either side that think with their emotions and politics before logic. It also raises the question; is it possible to ever find real truth on controversial issues?

You will not get an honest debate on this issue, especially by those who believe they have a vested interest in protecting the state of Israel.

Why do you think the numbers were grossly exaggerated by the communist side?

[White Doors]

Christians don't have a country of their own. This is absolutely false. Show me one nation on earth were you are granted citizenship based upon the sole fact that you are a Christian.

No, I do not think any religion should have a "country of their own". And again, no I do not thing that the persecution of Jews is "unique in the history of man". There have been many people persecuted over the course of the history of man, but I'm sure many Jews want us to believe that it is unique to them.

lol. get it now. You plainly just do not like jews. Is it because they 'control the media' booga booga!

Thanks, your anti-semitism is clear to see now.

[White Doors]

I never said non-Jews couldn't immigrate to Israel. What I said was that Jews all over the world were given the right to immigrate to Israel through the law of return. My question was which other nation allows all people of a given religion automatic citizenship besides Israel?

Lie.

a bald faced lie. You said only Jews were allowed to become citizens. period. You are moving the goal posts as you go.

[buffycat]

WRT Laws of Return (or Repatriation), here is the section from Wiki (sorry about that) for Germany.

I remember the influx of many Eastern European Germans, the red cross had set up shelters for ethnic Germans to emigrate to (at that time West Germany).

There was quite a controversy over it, as I recall. Still is as far as I know (obviously, I no longer live there - so I don't have my finger on the pulse of the nation!)

Socred:

You will not get an honest debate on this issue, especially by those who believe they have a vested interest in protecting the state of Israel.

No, you won't. This is a problem, and I believe is what leads to frustration over the Holocaust narrative as it is set out today. Sadly, the genocide of Jews during the second world war is now being used to halt all discussion over some of the more draconian and outright inhumane policies of the Israeli Government. This, to me is disgusting - the children of Holocaust survivors use the deaths of their ancestors and suffering of millions to justify doing the same to others. They have become what they hate. It's tragic - it is also very sad that those Jews who DO NOT support the occupation, DO NOT support the oppression of others are given little voice - or are smeared to an even greater degree by the 'fundamentalist zionists', in whose eyes Israel can NEVER do wrong.

Keep in mind I do NOT equate all of Jewry to be represented by the actions of Israel. That is as big mistake - and morally reprehensible. This kind of thinking ends up with the deaths of millions - look at present day Iraq, Afghanistan - and soon to be Iran (trumpetted on by gee - the US and Isreal!!). I keep the peoples of land separate from their governments - who rarely - if ever - act in a manner truly beneficial to their populace.

[Guest American Woman]

This is what is known in psychology as "projection".

I'm not the one playing word games.

You said you think countries should abide by international law "for the most part", and I asked you if you believe countries can pick and choose which international laws they will follow - you did not reply.

I most certainly did reply.

You asked me if I knew about Germany's right of return law, I answered that I did not, and asked you to post it so I can look at it and comment - you did not.

It's not my job to do your homework, and if you were as 'concerned' about Germany as you are about Israel, you wouldn't be asking me to do your homework for you.

You say that I've made false claims about Israel, I asked you to post those claims - you did not.

I most definitely did. More than once.

You say I've ignored something that you've posted, and I claimed I tried to answer every post directed towards me, and to please repost what you thought I ignored - you did not.

Nope. I've posted it enough. If you're sincere in your desire to address your false claims, all you have to do is read through my posts to you.

You are the one trying to play word games and a game of cat and mouse.

Hardly. I'm the one who feels if you can't address what I've already repeatedly posted, it's a complete waste of time to repost it yet again.

If you want me to answer something specific, post it. Otherwise, don't waste my time.

Been there, done that. Either address it or keep ignoring it, but sometimes silence speaks louder than words, and in this case, your silence speaks volumes.

[socred]

lol. get it now. You plainly just do not like jews. Is it because they 'control the media' booga booga!

Thanks, your anti-semitism is clear to see now.

LMFAO.

This is the nonsense that is given as an "argument". If Jews disagree with you, they claim you are an "anti-semite".

[socred]

I most certainly did reply.

It's not my job to do your homework, and if you were as 'concerned' about Germany as you are about Israel, you wouldn't be asking me to do your homework for you.

I most definitely did. More than once.

Nope. I've posted it enough. If you're sincere in your desire to address your false claims, all you have to do is read through my posts to you.

Hardly. I'm the one who feels if you can't address what I've already repeatedly posted, it's a complete waste of time to repost it yet again.

Been there, done that. Either address it or keep ignoring it, but sometimes silence speaks louder than words, and in this case, your silence speaks volumes.

Again, don't waste my time. See a psychologist for your issues of projection.

Put up what you want me to respond to, or shut up.

[socred]

Lie.

a bald faced lie. You said only Jews were allowed to become citizens. period. You are moving the goal posts as you go.

Show me the post where I said only Jews were allowed to become citizens of Israel.

What post #?

[socred]

I keep the peoples of land separate from their governments - who rarely - if ever - act in a manner truly beneficial to their populace.

A wise policy. I also keep seperate the followers of the religion known as Judaism from the political movement known as Zionism.

[Guest American Woman]

Again, don't waste my time. See a psychologist for your issues of projection.

Put up what you want me to respond to, or shut up.

Your anger also speaks volumes.

Now you can either respond to what I've said, or keep taking this route, in which case I'm done with you.

Have a good day.

Edited February 29, 2008 by American Woman

[buffycat]

A wise policy. I also keep seperate the followers of the religion known as Judaism from the political movement known as Zionism.

This bears repeating - time and time again.

Zionism, in its current manifestation, nor as in its early beginnings, does NOT represent all of Jewry. Not by a longshot.

Yet, the belief that fundamentalist Zionism was representative of ALL Jews, certainly could be considered a big factor as to why virulant REAL anti-semitsm (the hatred of Jews for simply being a Jew) was so easily flamed into a bonfire by the Nazis. Again, a simplistic 'US vs THEM' atittude, which ignores the individual in favour of reducing all people into handly little grouplets! (So much easier to annihalate that way - faceless groups of 'them'.)

Nothing changes - Israel does it to the Palestinian people now. The so-called Western Leaders do it to the 'Muslims'.

The beat goes on....

(edited for spelling)

Edited February 29, 2008 by buffycat

[White Doors]

Show me the post where I said only Jews were allowed to become citizens of Israel.

What post #?

post 74

The point is that Jews are given citizenship in Israel based solely upon their religion. This citizenship is not granted to any other religion. What connection to the land in Israel did Sammy Davis Jr. have which any Christian or Muslim did not?

[DogOnPorch]

Zionism, in its current manifestation, nor as in its early beginnings, does NOT represent all of Jewry. Not by a longshot.

Really? Where are the mass demonstrations of the non-Zionist Jews again re: the state of Israel? NYC would be the best bet as that's where the other large population of Jews lives besides Israel. Troting out those two or three orthodox Jews used for Iranian propaganda purposes doesn't count.

Yet, the belief that fundamentalist Zionism was representative of ALL Jews, certainly could be considered a big factor as to why virulant REAL anti-semitsm (the hatred of Jews for simply being a Jew) was so easily flamed into a bonfire by the Nazis. Again, a simplistic 'US vs THEM' atittude, which ignores the individual in favour of reducing all people into handly little grouplets! (So much easier to annihalate that way - faceless groups of 'them'.)

Die Straße frei den braunen Bataillonen.

Die Straße frei dem Sturmabteilungsmann!

Es schaun aufs Hakenkreuz voll Hoffnung schon millionen.

Der Tag für Freiheit und für Brot bricht an!

No, you won't. This is a problem, and I believe is what leads to frustration over the Holocaust ™ narrative as it is set out today. Sadly, the genocide of Jews during the second world war is now being used to halt all discussion over some of the more draconian and outright inhumane policies of the Israeli Government.

No the Holocaust is not being used to 'halt discussion'. We're discussing it now. But it makes good press to say so. The very fact you put a trademark on it shows your lack of respect.

Keep in mind I do NOT equate all of Jewry to be represented by the actions of Israel. That is as big mistake - and morally reprehensible.

Some of my best friends are...

This, to me is disgusting - the children of Holocaust survivors use the deaths of their ancestors and suffering of millions to justify doing the same to others. They have become what they hate. It's tragic - it is also very sad that those Jews who DO NOT support the occupation, DO NOT support the oppression of others are given little voice - or are smeared to an even greater degree by the 'fundamentalist zionists', in whose eyes Israel can NEVER do wrong.

Right out of the Pallywood play book. The 'Occupation'...lol. More like 41 years ago, a mass group of Arab/Muslim armies answered Nasser's call to join the Jew killing party they had planned for the Summer of Love. Israel struck first and won in 6 days against a superior yet bewildered foe. The Arabs have been crying for a do-over ever since.

--------------------------------------------------

Sons of Islam everywhere, the jihad is a duty - to establish the rule of Allah on earth and to liberate your countries and yourselves from America's domination and its Zionist allies, it is your battle - either victory or martyrdom.

---Dead modern Nazi, Sheikh A. Yassin

Edited February 29, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Rue]

Someone should ask people who don't believe it happen to explain the pictures the Germans took of the bodies in the trenches. The first time I saw about the killing of the Jews it was on "Twentieth Century" with Walter Cronkite. They also showed the people lines up naked to the ovens, I don't they were actors.

Topaz we have had strong debates on opposite sides but appreciate your integrity on this line of posts. Its much appreciated by me when I see you and others respond as you have on the holocaust issue. I sory of expect it from Don on the Porch or American Women or White Doors but I am genuinely appreciative to see it from you not simply because you are saying what I want you to say-but because you have the integrity to differentiate certain political arguements as to other issues from this one and realize they are not the same.

As for you Buffy, your approach to Zionism is so dag nabbed rigid. I do not doubt for one second in your thought processes you see zero relationship to you between what you think is your dispute against Zionism and such people who deny the holocaust but read back your last post. I think you intentionally linked them by suggesting Zionism generates anti-semitism. Zionism doesn't generate anti-semitism-anti-semites generate anti-semitism because they can not understand that Zionism is nothing more then the collective sufferage of Jews-it necessarily is a concept of Jews defining themselves as a nationality and that is why anti-semites attack all Jews when they wish to engage in anti-Israeli bashing and why you still just can't get it-the desire of Jews for sufferage-to express themselves as a nation is no different then what Christians or Muslims or many other religions have done with their own-and as long as you only criticize it when jews do it or want it/but do not use the exact same standard to criticize all other religions-you do select Jews for discriminatory standards of treatment and that is a type of anti-semitism.

To be consistent Buffy, for your arguement not to be singling out Jews for a double standard, your arguement would have to conclude NO STATE OF ANY KIND SHOULD BE BASED ON RELIGIOUS CONCEPTS BEING blended with the state identity.

I have yet to see you state all Muslim states that engage in Sharia Law are equally as incorrect as Jews who believe in the State of Israel.

I have yet to see you criticize any other religious state the same way you do Israel.

I expect it from people with anti-semitic agendas. From someone like you who genuinely believes there is right or wrong and good and bad guys, I expect more.

[Rue]

Someone should ask people who don't believe it happen to explain the pictures the Germans took of the bodies in the trenches. The first time I saw about the killing of the Jews it was on "Twentieth Century" with Walter Cronkite. They also showed the people lines up naked to the ovens, I don't they were actors.

Topaz we have had strong debates on opposite sides but appreciate your integrity on this line of posts. Its much appreciated by me when I see you and others respond as you have on the holocaust issue. I sory of expect it from Don on the Porch or American Women or White Doors but I am genuinely appreciative to see it from you not simply because you are saying what I want you to say-but because you have the integrity to differentiate certain political arguements as to other issues from this one and realize they are not the same.

As for you Buffy, your approach to Zionism is so dag nabbed rigid. I do not doubt for one second in your thought processes you see zero relationship to you between what you think is your dispute against Zionism and such people who deny the holocaust but read back your last post. I think you intentionally linked them by suggesting Zionism generates anti-semitism. Zionism doesn't generate anti-semitism-anti-semites generate anti-semitism because they can not understand that Zionism is nothing more then the collective sufferage of Jews-it necessarily is a concept of Jews defining themselves as a nationality and that is why anti-semites attack all Jews when they wish to engage in anti-Israeli bashing and why you still just can't get it-the desire of Jews for sufferage-to express themselves as a nation is no different then what Christians or Muslims or many other religions have done with their own-and as long as you only criticize it when jews do it or want it/but do not use the exact same standard to criticize all other religions-you do select Jews for discriminatory standards of treatment and that is a type of anti-semitism.

To be consistent Buffy, for your arguement not to be singling out Jews for a double standard, your arguement would have to conclude NO STATE OF ANY KIND SHOULD BE BASED ON RELIGIOUS CONCEPTS BEING blended with the state identity.

I have yet to see you state all Muslim states that engage in Sharia Law are equally as incorrect as Jews who believe in the State of Israel.

I have yet to see you criticize any other religious state the same way you do Israel.

I expect it from people with anti-semitic agendas. From someone like you who genuinely believes there is right or wrong and good and bad guys, I expect more.

[jbg]

WRONG

Islam is 'based' in Mecca. Israel is not very holy land to Islam at all despite your thinking that it is.

Apparently your search for the TRVTH is pretty shallow.

Any land that has ever been in Muslim hands is "holy" to the Muslims and off-limits to anyone else under conditions other than dhimmitude. As for Jerusalem, it is documented that Mohamed's camel completed the process of transitioning food to fertilizer, and depositing same, near Al Aksa mosque, making that ground particularly holy.

[White Doors]

Any land that has ever been in Muslim hands is "holy" to the Muslims and off-limits to anyone else under conditions other than dhimmitude. As for Jerusalem, it is documented that Mohamed's camel completed the process of transitioning food to fertilizer, and depositing same, near Al Aksa mosque, making that ground particularly holy.

But in fact, mohammed was never in Israel.

ergo that shrine is useless. He never ascended to heaven from there because he was never there period.

[GostHacked]

I believe it happend, but I will contest the scale reported via 'history'. Just the process of dispossing m6 million people is a huge task. And to have 6 million specifically killed in this fashion though.

I am looking at a logistics point of view. A few hundred thousand .. maybe under a million might be a more accurate number. It is possible 6 million jews were killed in Germany in WWII, however, I do not think concentration gas camps contributed that much to the overall number.

I am not taking away the importance of the tragedy (like any ethnic cleansing ... errrr I mean genocide/murder)Reports just simply could have been exagerated to promote a new cause. That is the problem with all of this is the possibility it was just really overexagerated in how many died in concentration camps.

[Brain Candy]

You will not get an honest debate on this issue, especially by those who believe they have a vested interest in protecting the state of Israel.

Why do you think the numbers were grossly exaggerated by the communist side?

Its something Irving and a number of holocaust revisionist, both political and non political, have brought up though Irving seems to be the one with the most evidence. The only refutation ive heard of this is that the communist were antisemite too, but that ignores the fact that the general knowledge seems to be that Jews only made up half of the victims, as well as any a could deal of the higher ups in the communist regime were of Jewish descent.

The communists use of propaganda was well known, but It would be a hard thing to prove either way without a large scale unbiased research into the issue, which you wont get in the near future.

Edited February 29, 2008 by Brain Candy

[Guest American Woman]

This is from 1989:

A 563-page study of the Nazi gas chambers has been published in a limited edition in the United States by Serge and Beate Klarsfeld, the French Holocaust researchers and Nazi hunters. They say the volume provides a new kind of definitive scholarly documentation of the murder of millions of Jews and others during World War II.

The study is by Jean-Claude Pressac, a pharmacist who began his work doubting that the Holocaust even took place. In his research, involving some 13 visits to the site of the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp over nearly a decade, Mr. Pressac found what he presents as proof, based entirely on technical analyses of the camp, that the Holocaust was every bit as monstrous and sweeping as survivors have said.

[jbg]

That is the problem with all of this is the possibility it was just really overexagerated in how many died in concentration camps.

I suspect that many died in the camps, but most from starvation, disease and overwork. The technically correct point is that most weren't gassed to death. Either way, death was the intended and deliberate outcome, which means that 6 milliino were murdered.

[socred]

Its something Irving and a number of holocaust revisionist, both political and non political, have brought up though Irving seems to be the one with the most evidence. The only refutation ive heard of this is that the communist were antisemite too, but that ignores the fact that the general knowledge seems to be that Jews only made up half of the victims, as well as any a could deal of the higher ups in the communist regime were of Jewish descent.

The communists use of propaganda was well known, but It would be a hard thing to prove either way without a large scale unbiased research into the issue, which you wont get in the near future.

The higher ups in the communist regime were Jewish, so they inflated the holocaust numbers to put pressure on the UN to establish a Jewish state in Palestine?

[socred]

post 74

QUOTE

The point is that Jews are given citizenship in Israel based solely upon their religion. This citizenship is not granted to any other religion. What connection to the land in Israel did Sammy Davis Jr. have which any Christian or Muslim did not?

You misinterpreted what I said, but I guess if you pull the second sentence out of context, it could appear that is what I said. The second sentence is in conjuction with the first which states that Jews are given citizenship in Isreal based SOLELY on their religion (i.e. the fact that they are Jewish and the right of return), and this right is not extended to other religions in Isreal (i.e. the right of return).

Of course other people of other religious denominations can immigrate to Isreal, but Jews all over the world are given the right automatically via the right of return.

Some on here keep saying that Christians have nations, and Muslims have nations, but Jews don't (prior to Isreal).

Show me one other nation on earth, besides Isreal, that grants you citizenship based solely on the fact that you are a Christian.

Edited February 29, 2008 by socred

[guyser]

Show me one other nation on earth, besides Isreal, that grants you citizenship based solely on the fact that you are a Christian.

The Vatican?