Did the Holocaust really happen?

[socred]

The Jews were persecuted and sent to camps...and killed...well before 1939. You're aware of this, I'm sure.

Question: Do you have any family members that were affected by the Holocaust?

Question: Did you have any family members in the SS?

Niether, so I would claim that my opinion would be less biased than those who would answer in the affirmative to either of your questions.

[socred]

I'm not sure what you are driving at. The question asked was Did the Holocaust really happen? The answer that came back was unequivocal. If you are trying to say that the Holocaust was a major, if not the major reason the country of Israel came about, I would agree. If you are trying to say that 6 million Jews volunteered to be slaughtered so that the country of Israel could come to reality and those 6 million were innocent dupes of some Zionist conspiracy, I would disagree completely.

What exactly is your point?

Then we can agree that the slaughter of innocent Jews by the Nazis was the major reason that Isreal came into existence?

Can we also agree that the Nazis sought to establish a Jewish state in Israel prior to the start of WWII?

Can we also agree that the Stern gang collaborated with the Nazis?

I never said that 6 million (or whatever the actual number is) Jews volunteered to be slaughtered.

My point is that the Nazis were the best thing that ever happened to the Zionist cause.

[Wilber]

Can we also agree that the Nazis sought to establish a Jewish state in Israel prior to the start of WWII?

Can we also agree that the Stern gang collaborated with the Nazis?

Lets see some compelling evidence from impeccable sources for the first item.

For the second, the Stern Gang was a terrorist organization. It didn't speak for all Zionists or Jews any more than Al Queda speaks for all Muslims or Arabs.

[DogOnPorch]

Niether, so I would claim that my opinion would be less biased than those who would answer in the affirmative to either of your questions.

Interesting. Can't say I agree with you...but interesting. There's more of your type around these days. Too bad, really, as the Holocaust was probably larger than we think...not smaller. Revisionism tends to avoid eyewitnesses, so these days there's every flavor of Holocaust denial. From the 'No it's a big lie' to the 'the numbers are inflated' to' the Jews were Nazis'...and beyond, I'm sure. To hell with evidence and eyewitnesses. Not to worry, though. In 20 years I doubt there will be too many left who were actually there anyways so that pesky problem won't be around to get in the way of rewriting history.

Debating with Holocaust deniers is like the battles I've waged with 'the Moon Landings were a hoax' crowd. Buzz Aldrin, I think, represents how I ultimately feel about both.

http://csicop.org/articles/20021018-aldrin/

Thanks, Buzz...

Can we also agree that the Nazis sought to establish a Jewish state in Israel prior to the start of WWII?

Uhhh...no.

Can we also agree that the Stern gang collaborated with the Nazis?

Uhh...no. Stern may have wanted to at a moment in time as he had his private war vs the British whom he thought were Germany's number 1 target...but it never happened. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, et al. See below for a typical reason why this didn't have a chance of happening.

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A Jew is for me an object of disgust. I feel like vomiting when I see one. Christ could not possibly have been a Jew. It is not necessary to prove that scientifically ― it is a fact.

---Joseph Goebbels

[socred]

Lets see some compelling evidence from impeccable sources for the first item.

For the second, the Stern Gang was a terrorist organization. It didn't speak for all Zionists or Jews any more than Al Queda speaks for all Muslims or Arabs.

I posted the link to this already, but if you want it again, I'll post it again:

"Eichmann was then assigned to investigate possible "solutions to the Jewish question." He visited Palestine in 1937 to discuss the possibility of large scale immigration of Jews to the Middle East with Arab leaders. British authorities, however, ordered him out of the country."

Adolf Eichmann

click the link above

[Wilber]

Can't say I agree with you...but interesting. There's more of your type around these days. Too bad, really, as the Holocaust was probably larger than we think...not smaller. Revisionism tends to avoid eyewitnesses, so these days there's every flavor of Holocaust denial.

I am afraid you are right. Even if they had no direct connection, people my age grew up knowing people with the tattoos, scars and stories. I wonder what will happen when there is no one left with that kind connection.

[socred]

There's more of your type around these days. Too bad, really, as the Holocaust was probably larger than we think...not smaller. Revisionism tends to avoid eyewitnesses

What "type"? What are you claiming?

I have never said anything about the number of people killed by the Nazis.

What have I "revised". Everything I've stated is a FACT.

FACT: Adolph Eichmann went to Israel prior to WWII to try to establish a Jewish state in Palestine.

FACT: The Zionist organization known as the Stern gang collaborated with the Nazis.

FACT: The establishment of the state of Isreal came shortly after WWII because the Nazis exterminated Jews.

Do you deny any of these facts?

Debating with Holocaust deniers

Are you claiming that I have denied the holocaust? Please show me where I've denied the holocaust.

QUOTE

Can we also agree that the Nazis sought to establish a Jewish state in Israel prior to the start of WWII?

Uhhh...no.

Interesting, are you denying the validity of the following Eichmann biography?

"Eichmann was then assigned to investigate possible "solutions to the Jewish question." He visited Palestine in 1937 to discuss the possibility of large scale immigration of Jews to the Middle East with Arab leaders. British authorities, however, ordered him out of the country."

Adolf Eichmann

[socred]

I am afraid you are right. Even if they had no direct connection, people my age grew up knowing people with the tattoos, scars and stories. I wonder what will happen when there is no one left with that kind connection.

Interesting strategy based upon lies.

Now please show me where I've denied the holocaust or that Jews were killed by Nazis.

[Wilber]

I posted the link to this already, but if you want it again, I'll post it again:

"Eichmann was then assigned to investigate possible "solutions to the Jewish question." He visited Palestine in 1937 to discuss the possibility of large scale immigration of Jews to the Middle East with Arab leaders. British authorities, however, ordered him out of the country."

Adolf Eichmann

click the link above

Your linky no worky but so what. Eichmann tried to talk the Brits into taking European Jews into Palestine and they told him to take a hike. Plan B was to exterminate the lot of them instead. Again, what's your point, that Zionists were complicit in the Holocaust?

[Wilber]

Interesting strategy based upon lies.

Now please show me where I've denied the holocaust or that Jews were killed by Nazis.

It's not a strategy, I really do wonder.

[socred]

Your linky no worky but so what. Eichmann tried to talk the Brits into taking European Jews into Palestine and they told him to take a hike. Plan B was to exterminate the lot of them instead. Again, what's your point, that Zionists were complicit in the Holocaust?

Here is the website:

www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/biographies/eichmann.htm

I've stated my point several times: The Nazis and the systematic killing of innocent Jews were the best thing that ever happened for the Zionist cause.

[DogOnPorch]

What "type"? What are you claiming?

Jews = Nazis type, I guess. First impressions and all. You seek to make a connection between Jews and Nazis. Here's the most logical and common form of collaberation between Jew and Nazi...but, I notice they don't get mentioned too often in these discussions. Maybe they knew too much...

Inflated numbers type for iForgot. But who's counting?

Neither of you are TRUE Holocaust deniers...much like a moderate Muslim not being a terrorist...yet he doesn't protest them either.

Do you deny any of these facts?

I already disagreed with your Stern Gang comment.

Eichmann was to meet the Mufti on that trip, if I recall...and you might be familiar with his view on Jews. I had thought he had managed to sneek a visit with him but it was apparently Himmler that introduced them.

The SS interest in the mufti preceded the war. It financed his uprising here between 1936-39. In 1937, Adolf Eichmann visited this country to reconnoiter the Zionist endeavor and meet the mufti, but the British allowed him only a 48-hour stay. Eventually Himmler introduced Husseini to Eichmann. Thereafter the mufti became a frequent caller at Eichmann's office. The two got along famously. They shared the goal of exterminating all Middle Eastern Jews.

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Haj_Amin_El_Husseini.htm

The establishment of the state of Isreal came shortly after WWII because the Nazis exterminated Jews.

I already gave you my Roman analogy.

--------------------------------------------------

I hold all commanders and other SS officers, responsible for the most scrupulous and loyal respect for this privilege especially granted to the Moslems. They have answered the call of the Moslem chiefs and have come to us out of hatred for the common Jewish-Anglo-Bolshevik enemy and through respect and fidelity for he who they respect above all, the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. There will no longer be the least discussion about the special rights afforded to the Moslems in these circles....

---Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler

[socred]

Jews = Nazis type, I guess. First impressions and all. You seek to make a connection between Jews and Nazis.

That's not what I said at all, unless you equate Jews and Zionism. What is a Jew?

Neither of you are TRUE Holocaust deniers...much like a moderate Muslim not being a terrorist...yet he doesn't protest them either.

I have yet to see you provide evidence that I've denied anything about the holocaust, and I've yet for you to provide evidence to demonstrate that anything I've said is factually incorrect.

[DogOnPorch]

That's not what I said at all, unless you equate Jews and Zionism. What is a Jew?

I equate Jews and Israel. You are the one using the word Zionism...a movement from the late 19th to mid 20th centuries. This sends up warning flags to me. As mentioned, you seek to make a connection between Nazis and Jews where none really exists while ignoring the obvious colaberation of the Sonderkommando. To me this speaks of someone who might go for conspiracy theories and the like. You can always prove me wrong...but first impressions give me this.

I have yet to see you provide evidence that I've denied anything about the holocaust, and I've yet for you to provide evidence to demonstrate that anything I've said is factually incorrect.

Much like a Moon Hoaxer when faced with a Moon rock, no evidence is good enough. As mentioned, you are not a TRUE Holocaust denier. You're more the type who claims discussion of the Holocaust is being squashed. What's there to discuss? Much like Mr Ahmadinnerjacket's conference...what's there to discuss?

Your quote:

Precisely! This is why you can never have an honest debate on the subject. If you in any way challenge the number of Jews killed, then you're labelled a "holocaust denier". In fact, the numbers have changed, and continue to change depending on who's making the claim.

As Napoleon Bonaparte once said, "history is a set of lies agreed upon".

-------------------------------------------

Is it not a reasonable possibility that some countries that had won the war made up this excuse (the Holocaust) to constantly embarrass the defeated people...to bar their progress?

---President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to German Chancellor Angela Merkel

Edited February 27, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[socred]

I equate Jews and Israel. You are the one using the word Zionism...a movement from the late 19th to mid 20th centuries. This sends up warning flags to me. As mentioned, you seek to make a connection between Nazis and Jews where none really exists while ignoring the obvious colaberation of the Sonderkommando. To me this speaks of someone who might go for conspiracy theories and the like. You can always prove me wrong...but first impressions give me this.

Much like a Moon Hoaxer when faced with a Moon rock, no evidence is good enough. As mentioned, you are not a TRUE Holocaust denier. You're more the type who claims discussion of the Holocaust is being squashed. What's there to discuss? Much like Mr Ahmadinnerjacket's conference...what's there to discuss?

Your quote:

Orthodox Jews would disagree with you.

Yes, I use the word Zionism. I assume it's still in the dictionary. I never made a connection between Nazis and Jews. I made a connection between Nazis and Zionism. I do not equate the two. By the way, you never answered my question, what is a Jew?

And yes, I believe there is a Zionist "conspiracy" to establish a Jewish state in Israel. Anyone but a retard would agree with me.

There's lots to discuss about the holocaust, but some people want to end all debate, and silence anyone you disagree with by putting them in jail.

[jbg]

And yes, I believe there is a Zionist "conspiracy" to establish a Jewish state in Israel. Anyone but a retard would agree with me.

How about the term "effort" in place of "conspiracy"?

There's lots to discuss about the holocaust, but some people want to end all debate, and silence anyone you disagree with by putting them in jail.

As a Jew I am against he various "hate crimes" bill that seek to silence debate in this manner. Though I am appalled by your views, I'd defend to my death your right to assert, state and debate them.

[socred]

How about the term "effort" in place of "conspiracy"?

As a Jew I am against he various "hate crimes" bill that seek to silence debate in this manner. Though I am appalled by your views, I'd defend to my death your right to assert, state and debate them.

Do you know what it means to "conspire"? My company "conspires" every day to maximize profits and gain market share. The term "conspiracy theorist" is a term which is bandied about in order to cast aspersions on people who make certain claims. The world is full of "conspiracies".

If you are a Jew, maybe you'll answer my question.

What is a Jew?

[DogOnPorch]

What is a Jew?

Wiki sums it up...perhaps this will help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

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What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach.

---Cool Hand Luke

[socred]

Wiki sums it up...perhaps this will help.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

I assume since you supplied the Wikipedia article, you agree with the following:

"A Jew (Hebrew: יְהוּדִי, Yehudi (sl.); יְהוּדִים, Yehudim (pl.); Ladino: ג׳ודיו, Djudio (sl.); ג׳ודיוס, Djudios (pl.); Yiddish: ייִד, Yid (sl.); ייִדן, Yidn (pl.))[4] is a member of the Jewish people, an ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the ancient Middle East. The ethnicity and the religion of Judaism, the traditional faith of the Jewish nation, are strongly interrelated, and converts to Judaism are both included and have been absorbed within the Jewish people throughout the millennia."

Without getting into debates about what constitutes a race, I must assume you agree that converts to Judaism are "Jews"?

If converts to Judaism are Jews, what connection do they have to the land in Palestine?

[jbg]

If you are a Jew, maybe you'll answer my question.

What is a Jew?

The Wikipedia definition posted by DOP is as good a definition as any. I consider Judaism to be a hybrid between a religion and a nation, taking on some aspects of each. The emphasis is on observance of the law as passed down in the first five books of the Torah, and as modified by the Talmud.

Without getting into debates about what constitutes a race, I must assume you agree that converts to Judaism are "Jews"?

If converts to Judaism are Jews, what connection do they have to the land in Palestine?

The connection to the Land of Israel is far from only racial. If one believes in G-d, one believes that G-d has chose the Hebrews to inhabit the land of Israel. The term "Chosen People" is most unclear since it is very unclear as to what we're chosen for. Certain things such as the Holocaust are not good, that's for sure. On the other hand, the Holocaust and other related events had the effect of purging the Jews of people who did not move when clearly getting out and moving on was a vital necessity. While I do not agree with you that the Jews in any way wanted the Holocaust to happen, there is no doubt that it created the conditions under which the formation of the State of Israel was possible. The Jews surviving the concentration camps and emerging from hiding were not welcome in their ancestral towns and lands. Since continuing the Holocaust was not an option, and the US, UK, Canada and Australia did not want them in any numbers, the land of Israel was the only option.

[socred]

The connection to the Land of Israel is far from only racial.

I hope you realize that other religions also have a connection to the land of Israel that is not racial (whatever the term "race" means).

However; other religions are not considered citizens of Israel based upon their religion, and that is a significant difference.

[jbg]

However; other religions are not considered citizens of Israel based upon their religion, and that is a significant difference.

OK. I challenge you. Tell me what Muslim or Christian was ever prevented from practicing his religion in Israel? What would happen to a Christian or Jew practicing their religion in Saudi Arabia?

[Guest American Woman]

I hope you realize that other religions also have a connection to the land of Israel that is not racial (whatever the term "race" means).

However; other religions are not considered citizens of Israel based upon their religion, and that is a significant difference.

According to the CIA World Factbook, the Jewish religion only makes up 76.4% of Israel's population.

Jewish 76.4% (of which Israel-born 67.1%, Europe/America-born 22.6%, Africa-born 5.9%, Asia-born 4.2%), non-Jewish 23.6% (mostly Arab) (2004)

As for Saudi Arabia, since that country was mentioned, the population is listed as 100% Muslim.

Edited February 28, 2008 by American Woman

[socred]

OK. I challenge you. Tell me what Muslim or Christian was ever prevented from practicing his religion in Israel? What would happen to a Christian or Jew practicing their religion in Saudi Arabia?

We're not talking about Saudi Arabia. This reminds me of the child in the principal's office who's defense is "oh yeah, well look at what Johnny does".

The point is that Jews are given citizenship in Israel based solely upon their religion. This citizenship is not granted to any other religion. What connection to the land in Israel did Sammy Davis Jr. have which any Christian or Muslim did not?

Edited February 28, 2008 by socred

[socred]

According to the CIA World Factbook, the Jewish religion only makes up 76.4% of Israel's population.

Jewish 76.4% (of which Israel-born 67.1%, Europe/America-born 22.6%, Africa-born 5.9%, Asia-born 4.2%), non-Jewish 23.6% (mostly Arab) (2004)

As for Saudi Arabia, since that country was mentioned, the population is listed as 100% Muslim.

This is comical, and so obvious. It's the childish act of deflection, and does not in any way answer my questions.

What connection do those who practice Judaism have with the land in Israel that any other followers of the faiths of Abraham (Christianity and Islam) do not have? And why was a nation given to the practictioners of Judaism? And why do the practictioners of Judaism have preferential treatment in becoming a citizen of Israel?