Did the Holocaust really happen?

[Regulus de Leo]

I don't agree with Mr. Zundel either, but I believe he has a right to express his opinion, and the fact that he was put in jail for expressing that opinion makes him a political prisoner.

No it doesn't. It makes him a person who broke the law.

[socred]

No it doesn't. It makes him a person who broke the law.

Not all laws are just.

[DogOnPorch]

Seems the Nazis were interested in Zionism as well.

At first it was the easy way out...pre-1939....deportation. But once the war was on it was harder to move around, obviously. A Jewish group even attempted to deal with the Nazis to get out of Germany so as to escape to British Palestine. My Aunt got out of Germany in 1939 by the skin of her teeth...but she eventually made it to NYC.

It was the Grand Mufti that demanded Himmler stop deportation as the Jews were simply becoming his problem instead of Germany's as many headed to British Palestine. The Wannsee Conference followed...though if it was the Mufti's comments to Himmler that brought it about is less certain.

I believe it was on the very trip to the Middle-East you mentioned that Eichmann met the Mufti for the first time becoming friends.

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I've come from the Reichsführer SS (Himmler). The Führer has given the order for the physical destruction of the Jews.

---SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich

[socred]

At first it was the easy way out...pre-1939....deportation. But once the war was on it was harder to move around, obviously. A Jewish group even attempted to deal with the Nazis to get out of Germany so as to escape to British Palestine. My Aunt got out of Germany in 1939 by the skin of her teeth...but she eventually made it to NYC.

It was the Grand Mufti that demanded Himmler stop deportation as the Jews were simply becoming his problem instead of Germany's as many headed to British Palestine. The Wannsee Conference followed...though if it was the Mufti's comments to Himmler that brought it about is less certain.

I believe it was on the very trip to the Middle-East you mentioned that Eichmann met the Mufti for the first time becoming friends.

One could argue that the best thing to ever happen to further the Zionist cause was the rise of the Nazis in Germany and the extermination of Jews in Europe. The state of Israel was formed shortly after.

[jbg]

Many holocaust deniers (i.e. A-Jad) argue that the holocaust was a story made up by Jewish population to give right to the existance of Israel and that the Jews need to have a country.

Do you believe the holocaust really happened?

Rather than give you an angry, answer, I'll give a serious one. The US, British and Russian troops liberating the camps had absolutely no "Jewish" agenda when they reported truthfully on the horrors they saw. Certainly Jew-hater Roosvelt had no such agenda.

It is a historical fact that Poland, pre-War had between 2.5 and 3 million Jews. Where did they go? These were generally Orthodox Jews and not ones that would assimilate readiliy into the non-welcoming surrounding population. Where are the foremerly thriving synagogues of Amsterdam?

Answers?

[DogOnPorch]

One could argue that the best thing to ever happen to further the Zionist cause was the rise of the Nazis in Germany and the extermination of Jews in Europe. The state of Israel was formed shortly after.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc comes to mind with that statement. If we want to get down to brass tacks Israel became a 'state' back around 1000BC. Islam showed up with a sword 1600+ years later, claimed the former Jewish Temple was the site of Muhammed's accent to heaven and proceeded to build a big mosque on it. With your logic there we could say the Romans were the best thing for the Zionists as well.

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Damn-it! What didn't Diddy do?

---Satan planning his sweet 16 party: South Park

Edited February 26, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[jbg]

One could argue that the best thing to ever happen to further the Zionist cause was the rise of the Nazis in Germany and the extermination of Jews in Europe. The state of Israel was formed shortly after.

This post is odious hatred. You have the right to say it and I would never deny you that right, though you'd probably deny the right of my people to survive if you had my way.

[Wilber]

One could argue that the best thing to ever happen to further the Zionist cause was the rise of the Nazis in Germany and the extermination of Jews in Europe. The state of Israel was formed shortly after.

WTF

[jbg]

WTF

Does that mean you agree with the post being referenced?

[Wilber]

Does that mean you agree with the post being referenced?

I think not.

[DogOnPorch]

Does that mean you agree with the post being referenced?

WTF? = Shocked outrage for the most part.

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An evil petting zoo?

---Dr Evil

[White Doors]

So who was the wacko who voted no?

[buffycat]

socred:

One could argue that the best thing to ever happen to further the Zionist cause was the rise of the Nazis in Germany and the extermination of Jews in Europe. The state of Israel was formed shortly after.

Seems Ben-Gurion agrees:

A month after the Nazi pogrom against Germany's Jews, famously known as Kristallnacht, Ben-Gurion provided an interesting mathematical formula for saving German Jewish kids. He stated in December 1938:

"If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162)

Here is another link to the collaboration of the Zionists with the Nazi regime, a review of Brenner's 51 Documents:

51 Documents

excerpt:

Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

"The NMO (National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi)), which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.

2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,

3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

Proceeding from these considerations, the NMO in Palestine, under the condition the above-mentioned national aspirations of the Israeli freedom movement are recognized on the side of the German Reich, offers to actively take part in the war on Germany's side."

***

So, one can say with certainty that war makes for strange bedfellows.

For those interested the entire book is available here.

To add by edit: This poll is stupid as it is quite clear that a holocaust did happen to the Jews, communists, roma, gays - anyone who disagreed with the facsist nazi state. Whether it be 6 million or 1 million is pretty much irrelevant. The problem IMO arises as to the version of events which led to the deaths and the causes of the deaths as well (some by extermination, others due to disease).

Edited February 26, 2008 by buffycat

[jbg]

socred:

Seems Ben-Gurion agrees:

A month after the Nazi pogrom against Germany's Jews, famously known as Kristallnacht, Ben-Gurion provided an interesting mathematical formula for saving German Jewish kids. He stated in December 1938:

"If I knew it was possible to save all [Jewish] children of Germany by their transfer to England and only half of them by transferring them to Eretz-Yisrael, I would choose the latter----because we are faced not only with the accounting of these [Jewish] children but also with the historical accounting of the Jewish People." (Righteous Victims, p. 162)

I will search my earlier posts on this issue, later. Suffice to say that the statement either never was made or was taken out of context.

[M.Dancer]

I will search my earlier posts on this issue, later. Suffice to say that the statement either never was made or was taken out of context.

Pretty clever of Ben Gurian to know in 1938 that the jewish children were in mortal danger......

[Regulus de Leo]

Pretty clever of Ben Gurian to know in 1938 that the jewish children were in mortal danger......

No doubt he read Mein Kampf, looked at the discriminatory laws and persecution of Jews in Germany and listened to the speeches of Herr Hitler.

[M.Dancer]

No doubt he read Mein Kampf, looked at the discriminatory laws and persecution of Jews in Germany and listened to the speeches of Herr Hitler.

Oh I'm sure he did. But did anyone, even one person actually believe the breadth and scope of the Final Solution would actually come about in the magnitude it did?

I seriously doubt it and what's more, ben gurian's statement sounds more of a post hoc rationalization than one made before the fact.

[DogOnPorch]

Ben-Gurion's quote apparently is attributed to Sir Martin Gilbert's 1987 comment in the NY Times.

Six years after Hitler came to power in Germany, there was a further stimulus to the demand for statehood when the British Government closed the gates of Palestine to all but a fragment of those who were then trying to reach its shores in rapidly growing numbers. At a conference in London in January 1939, Ben-Gurion pleaded in vain for the British to allow the Jews to become a majority in Palestine (as Churchill had envisaged in 1922 and reiterated in 1937). Ben-Gurion returned to Palestine on the eve of World War II convinced that Britain would now never agree to a Jewish majority in Palestine. Immediately after his return he told a secret meeting of his party: ''If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, and only half by transferring them to the Land of Israel, I would choose the latter, for before us lies not only the numbers of these children but the historical reckoning of the people of Israel.

Benny Morris also used the comment in his 1999 book 'Righteous Victims: A History of the Zionist-Arab Conflict, 1881-1999'. He's a well known 'New Historian' who often supports the Palestinian Arab cause. He complains though that 'anti-Zionists' often take his comments out of context...which I suppose is what we're seeing here.

The comment appears to be more anger with the British White Paper policy re: Jewish immigration to British Palestine rather than any love for the Nazis. More sources would be helpful.

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I do believe them when they cheer for bin Laden...

---Benny Morris - The New Historians

[socred]

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc comes to mind with that statement. If we want to get down to brass tacks Israel became a 'state' back around 1000BC. Islam showed up with a sword 1600+ years later, claimed the former Jewish Temple was the site of Muhammed's accent to heaven and proceeded to build a big mosque on it. With your logic there we could say the Romans were the best thing for the Zionists as well.

Eichmann went to Palestine BEFORE WWII and the Nazi extermination of Jews. The fact is that the Stern Gang allied themselves with the Nazis, and the systematic killing of Jews in Europe was the impetus for a Jewish state in Palestine after WWII.

Seems to me that the Nazis were the best thing that ever happened in favour of the Zionist cause.

[socred]

This post is odious hatred. You have the right to say it and I would never deny you that right, though you'd probably deny the right of my people to survive if you had my way.

This post is hate filled nonsense.

Hate for anyone who questions the political motivations of Zionism. The truth is that I wouldn't harm the hair on one head of any Jew, or anyone else for that matter. I'm just making observations based upon facts.

You and "your people" have every right to survival, just like everyone else.

By the way, who are "your people" and what is a "Jew"?

[DogOnPorch]

Eichmann went to Palestine BEFORE WWII and the Nazi extermination of Jews. The fact is that the Stern Gang allied themselves with the Nazis, and the systematic killing of Jews in Europe was the impetus for a Jewish state in Palestine after WWII.

Seems to me that the Nazis were the best thing that ever happened in favour of the Zionist cause.

Eichmann went before...never said otherwise.

Care to provide a source for the Stern Gang being part of the Wehrmacht and/or the Schutzstaffel?

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You so consistantly...crack us up.

---Fat Tony De Mieco: The SImpsons

[socred]

Eichmann went before...never said otherwise.

Care to provide a source for the Stern Gang being part of the Wehrmacht and/or the Schutzstaffel?

If Eichmann went before, then this demonstrates that the Nazis had Zionist aims before the war.

Also, I never said the Stern gang was part of the German army or the SS. I merely stated that he collaborated with them in order to furthe Zionist goals.

[DogOnPorch]

The Jews were persecuted and sent to camps...and killed...well before 1939. You're aware of this, I'm sure.

Question: Do you have any family members that were affected by the Holocaust?

Question: Did you have any family members in the SS?

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The whole process of acquiring civic rights is not very different from that of being admitted to membership of an automobile club.

---Adolf Hitler: Mein Kampf

[DogOnPorch]

Also, I never said the Stern gang was part of the German army or the SS. I merely stated that he collaborated with them in order to furthe Zionist goals.

You do know they never got back to Avraham Stern re: his personal war with the British.

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Israel is still the only country in the world against which there is a written document to the effect that it must disappear.

---Menachem Begin

[Wilber]

Eichmann went to Palestine BEFORE WWII and the Nazi extermination of Jews. The fact is that the Stern Gang allied themselves with the Nazis, and the systematic killing of Jews in Europe was the impetus for a Jewish state in Palestine after WWII.

Seems to me that the Nazis were the best thing that ever happened in favour of the Zionist cause.

I'm not sure what you are driving at. The question asked was Did the Holocaust really happen? The answer that came back was unequivocal. If you are trying to say that the Holocaust was a major, if not the major reason the country of Israel came about, I would agree. If you are trying to say that 6 million Jews volunteered to be slaughtered so that the country of Israel could come to reality and those 6 million were innocent dupes of some Zionist conspiracy, I would disagree completely.

What exactly is your point?