Afghanistan

[Richie777]

Wrong again.

The ISI was created by the newly independent Pakistan partly as a means of controlling the various tribes within that country and partly as a means of exercising overall control over the Pakistani military in its conflicts with India, particularly over Kashmir.

Re your definition of "Afghani" - always go to Wikipedia, the definitive source for all information!

[jbg]

The ISI has a very shady past ever since the founding of Pakistan. I do know that not a single Afghani was involved in 9/11 unless it was in the pocket of one the hijackers: the people of Afghanistan are called Afghans, their currency is the Afghani. Regardless of your ignorance of that country and your inability to distinguish its people from their coinage, I should point out to you that the Taliban allowed Arabs and other foreigners to train in Afghanistan for terrorist operations. The Taliban are the creation in large part of the ISI.

So?

If a group is started for a legitimate purpose and it goes "rogue" it gets carte blanche to wreak havoc in the world?

[Topaz]

The latest news reports that Canada or NATO are not doing any rebuilding because they don't have enough men for security to watch over the rebuilding and its said they need another 200. I can say, with an election coming sooner than later here, that I hope that the Cons or the Libs only get a minority government or I think you will see a lot of 18-45 years going into the military, involuntary.

[Wilber]

The latest news reports that Canada or NATO are not doing any rebuilding because they don't have enough men for security to watch over the rebuilding and its said they need another 200. I can say, with an election coming sooner than later here, that I hope that the Cons or the Libs only get a minority government or I think you will see a lot of 18-45 years going into the military, involuntary.

No way, they had enough trouble getting conscription during the world wars and even when they did, few of them went overseas and almost none saw action.

[eyeball]

A story in the Globe and Mail today says NATO is about to charter a bunch of old Russian helicopters for Afghanistan.

I'm sure the irony will escape most people's notice around these parts but your average Afghani will probably piss themselves laughing.

We may need to recalculate just how many suckers really are born every minute.

[bush_cheney2004]

A story in the Globe and Mail today says NATO is about to charter a bunch of old Russian helicopters for Afghanistan.

I'm sure the irony will escape most people's notice around these parts but your average Afghani will probably piss themselves laughing.

Where do you think Antonov-124's came from? Canada loves to lease them!

[Wilber]

Where do you think Antonov-124's came from? Canada loves to lease them!

Believe Antonov is a Ukrainian outfit.

[bush_cheney2004]

Believe Antonov is a Ukrainian outfit.

Nope.....the basic airframe and existing production units have a decidedly Soviet era lineage. The Ukraine still has joint a partnership with Russia to resume production soon.

The Antonov company lacks facilities for full construction of some aircraft, a result of Soviet industrial strategy that split military production between different regions of the USSR. This distribution minimized potential war risks, and prevented Soviet republics from developing self-sufficient economies. As a result, Antonov airplanes were often constructed by aerospace companies in Kharkiv (Ukraine), Novosibirsk (Russia), and Tashkent (Uzbekistan). [Wiki]

[Army Guy]

A story in the Globe and Mail today says NATO is about to charter a bunch of old Russian helicopters for Afghanistan.

I'm sure the irony will escape most people's notice around these parts but your average Afghani will probably piss themselves laughing.

We may need to recalculate just how many suckers really are born every minute.

I'm sure that they do see the irony, the fact remains that thier own Afgan Airforce flys them, but i think it's more pride than anything else, the fact the beat the mighty russians with thier own gear might have something to do with it....

I don't think the average Afgan spends alot of time looking for irony in there everyday lives. to busy just trying to survive day to day...but those Helos will save lives, thats got to count for something.

[eyeball]

I'm sure that they do see the irony, the fact remains that thier own Afgan Airforce flys them, but i think it's more pride than anything else, the fact the beat the mighty russians with thier own gear might have something to do with it....

I don't think the average Afgan spends alot of time looking for irony in there everyday lives. to busy just trying to survive day to day...but those Helos will save lives, thats got to count for something.

What it will count for is the biggest boost in moral that freedom fighters in Afghanistan have ever had. I mean, if NATO and the west are so weak they have to go hat in hand to an old enemy that Afghanistan has already handed its ass back to once before... The optics for the west here are simply pathetic.

More and more I'm reminded of the fate of the empire in the story of Dune. Perhaps Aghanistan will take pity on the west and simply be content with handing us our asses. I'd hate to see what might happen if Afghanistan took a notion to conquor the world. But then, they're probably a lot smarter than that. If there are any people on Earth who know first hand just how futile and self-defeating such an endeavour is its probably the Afghans. Just as the Fremen shook the very foundations of civilization in Dune so too will the people of Afghanistan on Earth.

The west is doomed and it has no one to blame but itself.

[White Doors]

.........................

[Army Guy]

What it will count for is the biggest boost in moral that freedom fighters in Afghanistan have ever had. I mean, if NATO and the west are so weak they have to go hat in hand to an old enemy that Afghanistan has already handed its ass back to once before... The optics for the west here are simply pathetic.

I think your making to much out of nothing. We are renting russian designed helos, not Russian supplied helo's. How does that make us look weak, that we have identified a shortfall, ie lack of lift, placed a contract, ordered interm helos , and now renting russian designed helos for the short term to fill that small gap...

These rentals will save lives, Canadian lives and Afgan lives....who cares how the freedom fighters take it, if i was them i'd be very concerned, it will mean a major change in the way both sides will operate giving NATO more of the advantage...They will no longer have the advantage of monitoring our convoys, picking out ambush areas that favour them, it will give them less targets, it will however give us speed, stealth, and more firepower sounds like a winning combo to me....

More and more I'm reminded of the fate of the empire in the story of Dune. Perhaps Aghanistan will take pity on the west and simply be content with handing us our asses. I'd hate to see what might happen if Afghanistan took a notion to conquor the world. But then, they're probably a lot smarter than that. If there are any people on Earth who know first hand just how futile and self-defeating such an endeavour is its probably the Afghans. Just as the Fremen shook the very foundations of civilization in Dune so too will the people of Afghanistan on Earth.

The west is doomed and it has no one to blame but itself.

I'm sure the men and women presently serving over in Afganistan don't share your opinions, in fact the taliban are not strong enough to even touch our asses let alone hand them over to us. Yes they are tough little bastards, but they are no match for NATO.

It's not our soldiers nor our equipment that will loss this conflict, it is the people of Canada. and thier lack of will, and flip flopping attitude that is the danger to this mission.

[myata]

From today's Star: Children killed in Afghanistan. Another sited deteriorating security situation. Each story like this negates the effect of x million $$ sunk into this desperate project. Which is desperate in the sense that it has very little chance of success: if we're extra careful about any harm to the local population, our people will be exposed to more danger, and we'll suffer higher casualties. If we go on imposing our own "rules of engangment" on the local people, it'll give them all the more reason to view us as invaders, and resist. No win, all lose. Military interventions can't create free democracies.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Military interventions can't create free democracies.

False: see post WW2 Japan.

[Wilber]

More and more I'm reminded of the fate of the empire in the story of Dune. Perhaps Aghanistan will take pity on the west and simply be content with handing us our asses. I'd hate to see what might happen if Afghanistan took a notion to conquor the world. But then, they're probably a lot smarter than that. If there are any people on Earth who know first hand just how futile and self-defeating such an endeavour is its probably the Afghans. Just as the Fremen shook the very foundations of civilization in Dune so too will the people of Afghanistan on Earth.

You are aware that Dune was fiction?

[myata]

False: see post WW2 Japan.

It is true, though, as already discussed in another thread. Japan's case is completely different, the country was bankrupt both morally and "physically" by suicidal policy of its elite. It was pretty much a clean slate. Nothing like Iraq or Afghanistan.

In any case, "installing democracy by force" is quite obviously, an oxymoron. Strange that so few seem to have noticed.

[Wilber]

It is true, though, as already discussed in another thread. Japan's case is completely different, the country was bankrupt both morally and "physically" by suicidal policy of its elite. It was pretty much a clean slate. Nothing like Iraq or Afghanistan.

In any case, "installing democracy by force" is quite obviously, an oxymoron. Strange that so few seem to have noticed.

You mean the clean state that still has an Emperor with the oldest lineage of any monarchy in the world?

[GostHacked]

It is true, though, as already discussed in another thread. Japan's case is completely different, the country was bankrupt both morally and "physically" by suicidal policy of its elite. It was pretty much a clean slate. Nothing like Iraq or Afghanistan.

In any case, "installing democracy by force" is quite obviously, an oxymoron. Strange that so few seem to have noticed.

Reminds me of a tune .. might have posted it here before.

http://frontalot.com/index.php/?page=lyrics&lyricid=30

I wish we had elections every day,

wave the ballot in the air like a sign when I say

that democracy delivered by the bomb and the gun

is terror elsewhere on the world I'm from.

One of my fave hip hop artists ever.

[White Doors]

It is true, though, as already discussed in another thread. Japan's case is completely different, the country was bankrupt both morally and "physically" by suicidal policy of its elite. It was pretty much a clean slate. Nothing like Iraq or Afghanistan.

In any case, "installing democracy by force" is quite obviously, an oxymoron. Strange that so few seem to have noticed.

wrong, see Iraq.

[bush_cheney2004]

It is true, though, as already discussed in another thread. Japan's case is completely different, the country was bankrupt both morally and "physically" by suicidal policy of its elite. It was pretty much a clean slate. Nothing like Iraq or Afghanistan.

In other words...you were mistaken. Democracy was established with military force. This is America's experience and it is related to present policies. Military force can/has set up the circumstances for a political solution. That's how the United States of America was born for krissakes.

[myata]

wrong, see Iraq.

Oh yes, our newest and most glorious democracy of Iraq. The one that's shining so bright, that about 150,000 US troops (not counting minor others) are visiting (peacefully, of course) no doubt to be educated on the latest in the democratic theory. My bad.

[g_bambino]

In other words...you were mistaken. Democracy was established with military force. This is America's experience and it is related to present policies. Military force can/has set up the circumstances for a political solution. That's how the United States of America was born for krissakes.

Democracy was established? You'd first have to give an absolute, concrete definition of what democracy is before claiming it was "established" in Japan in 1947. Before the Second World War, Japan had a constitution, a bicameral parliament, a cabinet, and political parties. The 1889 Meiji constitution may have been weak, but it allowed for popular representation, none-the-less. So, if free elections in a multi-party state cannot be counted as democratic, what can be?

Edited August 1, 2008 by g_bambino

[bush_cheney2004]

Democracy was established? You'd first have to give an absolute, concrete definition of what democracy is before claiming it was "established" in Japan in 1947. Before the Second World War, Japan had a constitution, a bicarmal parliament, a cabinet, and political parties. The 1889 Meiji constitution may have been weak, but it allowed for popular representation, none-the-less. So, if free elections in a multi-party state is not democracy, what is?

Irrelevant...see the Pottsdam Declaration and goals imposed by the Allies as preconditions for the withdraw of troops. It was the most exhaustively planned operation...and directed political change in world history...R.E. Ward

[madmax]

Afghanistan was democratic prior to the USSR invasion and held a semblance of Democracy during the occupation. Obviously the factions involved in the Democracy were communists and islamists.

[g_bambino]

Irrelevant...see the Pottsdam Declaration and goals imposed by the Allies as preconditions for the withdraw of troops. It was the most exhaustively planned operation...and directed political change in world history...R.E. Ward

That's certainly irrelevant to proving that democracy was "established" in Japan in 1947.