Afghanistan

[AngusThermopyle]

When are you signing up? Talk is cheap.

Nice try but you missed by a mile with that one.

I did sign up, did 20 years and 6 tours.

So when you signing up? Talk is cheap.

[g_bambino]

That's right, they are simply taking it regardless of how I feel about it.

That's what's really disrespectful. Like I said, put your own money where your mouth is. You want this so-called war, you pay for it.

Ah, this old argument again; I will live in society but only pay for what I want. How about you put your feet where your mouth is and walk on off to a place where you won't have to pay for what you don't want?

[Oleg Bach]

Nice try but you missed by a mile with that one.

I did sign up, did 20 years and 6 tours.

So when you signing up? Talk is cheap.

Am I to old to sign up? Maybe they won't want the likes of me a skilled warrior and peace maker operating on that rock pile - heaven forbid that folks like me cause peace to break out...bad for buisness and moral and mind numbing patrotism.

[madmax]

Nice try but you missed by a mile with that one.

I did sign up, did 20 years and 6 tours.

So when you signing up? Talk is cheap.

Been there, done that and I still Got friends relatives active, and semi active (weekend warriors) whom are currently there.

Would it be fair to say that the majority of those tours were in the 90s?

That said, you might be interested in this.

A new report says the Conservative government's stable funding program for the Canadian military is already in shambles only months after it was released. The Senate security and defence committee released a study Wednesday that suggests the government's numbers don't add up. Liberal Senator Colin Kenny, the head of the committee, says the planned annual increase of 1.5 per cent to the defence budget is already being outstripped by inflation.

"The Bank of Canada has come out just in the past week and announced that inflation is going to be at four per cent, which puts the Canadian military in the hole by 2.5 per cent," Kenny said in an interview.

Given that the army will be fighting a ground war in southern Afghanistan until 2011, Kenny says it would be inexcusable to let the current plan, which was unveiled in February, stand.

"That's what outrages me," he said.

"We have men and women in harm's way and the government is trying to do this on the cheap. If that's how they feel they shouldn't put our kids in harm's way. They should simply stay at home.""

I think someone with your mindset would play a better role in putting pressure on the government. While it might be trite for a Liberal Senator to be speaking about increased military spending, it is the current government that is to answer for what is happening today.

I have found a few bold talkers who want other people to do the heavy lifting. There is no/little sacrifice or contribution from the public or the "verbal" bigmouths for the conflict.

I do not share your position on Afghanistan. I will not be reenlisting for that, although I can say, at times, it has crossed my mind for some strange reason, to enlist, go over, and engage in something I do not agree with. Some things don't change, you just do it.

[madmax]

Am I to old to sign up?

How good are you in understanding defending oil pipelines = profit.

What languages can you speak?

Edited August 6, 2008 by madmax

[AngusThermopyle]

Where we differ is the reason for Canada being there. I do not believe we are there to defend oil pipelines at all (I don't think there are any to defend in Afghanistan are there?). It is my belief that Canada is in Afghanistan to help bring stability and a government of the people to that land.

Sure, I still have many friends who have and still do serve in Afghanistan, all reg force, I was reg force so I don't know too many reservists actually. I retired in 01, when this was all starting to blow up. I did feel guilty about getting out but my plans were set and underway, as you probably know, when retiring you actually start the process about a year before hand. As such my Seargeant Major was against me pulling the plug on my plans and stated that it was someone else's turn now.

You are correct, they were in the 90's, really nice places to go, if you count Somalia, Yugoslavia and Rwanda amongst your list of nice places to go. Thats why it irks me when I hear people talking about non combat reconstruction. If these people had ever been to any of these types of places they'd know that the entire concept is fantasy. The first time you see a "technical" speed up and open up on a crowd of women and children with no warning you know that the khumbyar approach is just a dream. For those situations you need firepower, kind words and good wishes just don't cut it.

What people don't seem to realise is that the world has more than its fair share of very very bad people. These are people to whom talk is meaningless and the rule of might is paramount. They don't care how good your intentions are, they just want to kill you and dominate others by any means.

[myata]

What people don't seem to realise is that the world has more than its fair share of very very bad people. These are people to whom talk is meaningless and the rule of might is paramount. They don't care how good your intentions are, they just want to kill you and dominate others by any means.

That sure is one good reason to go to them and kill them first.

[AngusThermopyle]

That sure is one good reason to go to them and kill them first.

The usual snotty ignorant answer I've come to expect.

So intervening and saving innocent lives is not a good reason. I guess we should all take your attitude and say "screw them, who gives a f*ck".

If you are trying to say we should not kill those who would murder the defenseless and innocent then all I can say is you have a very unusual sense of morality. Or are you trying to say we go to these places to kill the innocent and defenseless? If that is the case I call you a bald faced liar with no sense of shame or knowledge to base your (worthless) opinion on.

[Peter F]

The usual snotty ignorant answer I've come to expect.

So intervening and saving innocent lives is not a good reason. I guess we should all take your attitude and say "screw them, who gives a f*ck".

If you are trying to say we should not kill those who would murder the defenseless and innocent then all I can say is you have a very unusual sense of morality. Or are you trying to say we go to these places to kill the innocent and defenseless? If that is the case I call you a bald faced liar with no sense of shame or knowledge to base your (worthless) opinion on.

I see. This is all about saving the innocent. Politics, international relations, alliance memberships, and foriegn policy has nothing to do with it. But doesn't explain why army guy and other 'volounteers' to save mankind have not invaded cuba or North Korea or Tibet or Somalia or Darfur or Syria or Iran or ad nauseum.

There are other factors at play here besides 'morality'. In fact if it was solely dependant upon morality we wouldnt be in Afghanistan - just like we didnt save the Russians from Stalin. Morality here is small potatoes when using or considering the use of a states Armed Forces.

So the 'Don't you like babies?' argument is horeshit.

[eyeball]

That's absurd. You have the right to question our military engagements. You can be a Canadian Citizen and not pay taxes and still question our military engagements. You can be of Voting Age and vote for a party that doesn't support various military engagements. You can be of any age and protest military engagements, freely in this country.

Army Guy is well aware that I do not share his view that we are going to fix up Afghanistan, with the troop participation rate that we have. We could increase it 10* and the results will be the same. THe progress has been slow, stagnat and sometimes more regressive then positive considering how long we have been in the country. A country that has had no problem fighting, and defending its turf, has problems supporting its own government, and quite frankly, we do not trust the Afghan Army.

If you cannot train an army in SEVEN YEARS to defend its government, you will be unlikely to ever be able to accomplish such a mission. It is folley. A new direction must be found.

But to suggest that military excursions require 100% approval of the tax payer is pure nonsense.

To repeat, (pay attention this time bambino) I've made it quite clear that I'm happy to pay my taxes for military defence of our country's borders, international humanitarian aid and peacekeeping. Sending our troops on offensive missions within the borders of other countries is an entirely different matter. I think these should be put to a national referendum with the same sort of winning requirement (not 100%) reserved for things like scrapping our first-past-the-post electoral system. If you intend to go hunt people down and kill them in my name I want far more weight given to my questions and input. I think my position is less extreme than the strict neutrality of the Swiss (which is probably phoney anyway given their suspect international banking practices) and not as extreme as the gung-ho lets kill the scum-bag's approach the Army-guy's of the world seem to embrace.

Ideally foreign engagements of the type we're presently mired in should be strictly funded by war-bonds. War bonds serve two purposes, they are the best gauge of the real level of support the government will ever have and people who truely insist on supporting things like our engagement in Afghanistan will the opportunity to put their own money where their mouth's are.

I think we need a better system of checks and balances to prevent us from being politically pressured into war or go off to it in a half-cocked manner, which is exactly what's happened in Afghanistan. Referendum's or war-bonds either or both work for me.

[eyeball]

And if we where over in Afgan planting our nations flag on top of thier highest peak, and beating our chest ,yelling to all those below i claim this country in the name of Canada ....i'd say you had a piont,..... but since we are not, but rather over assisting another nation in thier hour of need....you don't have a piont, other than the fact you don't like spending money on afganistan.

Bullshit. We went over there to "smoke em out of their caves" remember? We gave another country's army our best trained killers and they killed the people that army told them to kill. Everything else we've done since has been made up as we've gone.

[eyeball]

What people don't seem to realise is that the world has more than its fair share of very very bad people. These are people to whom talk is meaningless and the rule of might is paramount. They don't care how good your intentions are, they just want to kill you and dominate others by any means.

Thats right. Some of these are amongst our best friends.

[AngusThermopyle]

So the 'Don't you like babies?' argument is horeshit.

Actually after seeing your posts for a while I can understand how it would be "horseshit" to you, a subject you have shown yourself to be intimately familiar with.

Some of us do actually believe in and strive for a greater good, just because you are a bitter person who senses his own inate failure does not mean you should project those feelings upon all. Some people are willing to sacrifice for others, just because this concept is alien to you does not mean it does not exist.

So why dont you open wide and eat some of what you spew constantly.

Bullshit. We went over there to "smoke em out of their caves" remember? We gave another country's army our best trained killers and they killed the people that army told them to kill.

This is just wrong, cant say much more than that. Once again we have those who just like to make stuff up as they go. Show me our official policy or even an unofficial one that states what you have just claimed.

Didn't think you could, so in effect your statement was nothing more than a fabrication.

Edited August 7, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[myata]

So intervening and saving innocent lives is not a good reason. I guess we should all take your attitude and say "screw them, who gives a f*ck".

Again, "the babies" thing. The babies who died of our bomb strikes die happy and for a great cause. That makes one huge heck of the difference. And all the babies whose lives will likely be screwed up following our clueless messing up in their affairs.

Anyways, the difference between real assistance and foreign aventures to impose ideology, government, way of life has been explained. It's not about "who gives a damn", but what you do. You can of course ignore it and keep on marching along to the sound of propaganda slogans.

If you are trying to say we should not kill those who would murder the defenseless and innocent then all I can say is you have a very unusual sense of morality. Or are you trying to say we go to these places to kill the innocent and defenseless?

Let's just agree that we go to these places to kill. The rest, as has been explained, is very much a matter of terminology.

If that is the case I call you a bald faced liar with no sense of shame or knowledge to base your (worthless) opinion on.

Does this signify the official end of your logical, rational argumentation?

[Army Guy]

Yeigh, yeigh it always starts on that good generous education enlightenment note. Always. Bombs, tanks etc come next. Why could't goodness generousity and enlightenment do without brute force?

In a perfect world, some kung fu monk traveling the world could spread goodness,and enlightenment. But the Taliban understand one thing only it is brute force and violence, they have tied it all together with education and religion, they know nothing else...and will not change because they believe it is how god wants them to live...

The UN and NGO's have tried the peaceful approach, and thier mission was closed downed by the taliban.

NGO

Relations with the United Nations and aid agencies

Was it really the case before the invasion? If so, I'd like to see some proof, rather than blood raising propaganda. Whatever Taleban were/are known guilty of, mass killing and / or dying of population isn't seem to be what they're accused of.

Are you serious, you've cemented your opinion over this entire Afganistan issue and you have not seen any proof of any wrong doing by the taliban...you need to take your blinders off....

Read the link above under the section,Ethnic massacres and persecution, or try the ones below.

taliban crimes.

Try to understand this: everybody does not have to be just like us. After we waken up from some of the worst nightmares humans leaved through in the entire history. There are and will be people who live differently; behave differently; dress differently; have different understanding of norm of living and morality; all this is not still the reason to barge into their lands and change them so that they'll be just like us.

Your statement leaves me speachless, you've made it perfectly clear that you have lived a sheltered life, as most Canadians have, you have not experianced war or the effects of war(which is a good thing) except when it comes down to understanding "why" myself and other soldiers feel the way we do about this mission...

Try to understand this, that like many others on this board i'am a military person, that has seen what a few bad people can do to an entire population. Couple this with Canadian values and morals and i can not stand by and watch as a few make life a nightmare for the many...

And while i'm aware that the world is a diverse place to live, and not everyone has to share my values and morals there is a very clear line that man or women are not allow to cross, and in this case the Taliban and thier merry band of comrads have past that mark by a country mile....

Our country has decided that not only were our military forces to engage and destroy these few , but we were to assist the freely elected government in rebuilding what 30 years of war has taken away...

And while i respect your chioce to stand by and watch, i don't think it gives you a right cast doubt on our actions unless they are unlawful, or go agains't Canadian values or morals.

There, you're making it sound like "interfere" and "help" are the same thing. They aren't. Help is mutual, interference is one sided. I.e in the eyes of the beholder.

But you've yet to prove that it is one sided, we've had this discusion many times before, i've given you tones of links and examples that the majority of afgans do want us there...but you have failed to provide one link or example proving that NATO is in Afganistan again'st the peoples will.

I wouldn't be so sure which one is better (not that I necessarily partake in one): indifference; or well intended but misguded "help". If "help" involves military power. That should instantly set the alarm bells. To think of it: how many of the worst dictators did what they did, consciously and intentionally because of want to do pure evil (as opposed to the ultimate good of their people)?

Maybe that is part of the problem, you have not experianced it, but rather content on the side lines...Help involving the military should set off alarm bells, and the people of Canada should have thought that thru before our military boarded aircraft....instead the majority of people decided to wave and cheer as we left.....

As for dictators doing what they do just to be evil, perhaps not, but they did do it for power, and power and the quest for more does corupt...

[Army Guy]

Right on the money. This is one of the few times I am going to wind up agreeing with you.

Army Guy, I have full respect for your profession and mean no disrespect for the military by this post.

I agree with Eyeball's original post to the extent that Afghanistan and so many other "counries in need" would "need" a lot less if they weren't hopelessly dangerous and unproductive places in which to conduct business. People in almost all failed states spend uber energy and time devising ways to kill each other and outsiders. That is fine by me (except as it applies to outsiders); I have no interest in funding the carnage though.

Your right there is many countries that need help, or aid, and why we don't do more is beyond me, however left unchecked these countries will remain a breeding ground for those that have the might to force thier will on the defenceless. sticking our heads in the sand will accomplish nothing, just look at Africa, it has little to nothing to offer the world and most of it is in conflict, only because someone has not done anything...

eventually it will reach our shores or effect our lives and we will have to react....to a much larger problem.

[Army Guy]

Bullshit. We went over there to "smoke em out of their caves" remember? We gave another country's army our best trained killers and they killed the people that army told them to kill. Everything else we've done since has been made up as we've gone.

I remember, it's the liberals that tend to forget...As far making things up as we go perhaps your right i'm sure the "how to rebuild a nation after 30 years of war" manual had yet to be written. and i'am sure it will be re written serveral times more...nobody said it qwas going to be quick and fast and easy....

[eyeball]

Angus, you might want to defer to Army Guy as to why we went in the first place. He was actually there.

In the meantime, show me a the unequivocal mandate of the people to go to war in places like Afghanistan. I think we need a Public Support for War Act that requires at least 75% of votors in 6 or 7 provinces and territories to agree before sending our troops into foreign countries. If you guy's think your cases are so sound make them to the public and let them decide. You want real support for the work you do then do a better job of selling it.

[myata]

In a perfect world, some kung fu monk traveling the world could spread goodness,and enlightenment. But the Taliban understand one thing only it is brute force and violence, they have tied it all together with education and religion, they know nothing else...and will not change because they believe it is how god wants them to live...

You aren't getting it. We shouldn't be going to other people with arms to fight on their land, other than pure and strictly in self defense against real ongoing attack. There's no objective that would justify this.

The UN and NGO's have tried the peaceful approach, and thier mission was closed downed by the taliban.

NGO

That is also not a valid reason to blast the country out and reengineer it.

Are you serious, you've cemented your opinion over this entire Afganistan issue and you have not seen any proof of any wrong doing by the taliban...you need to take your blinders off....

Read the link above under the section,Ethnic massacres and persecution, or try the ones below.

taliban crimes.

That could have been a valid reason - not for an educational invasion, but an action to halt a crime against humanity in progress. If confirmed by legitimate justice process (the link, for all the tragic information provided in it, is a hearsay). The opportunity for which (legitimate justice process) has been lost in a hurried and unnecessary invasion.

Your statement leaves me speachless, you've made it perfectly clear that you have lived a sheltered life, as most Canadians have, you have not experianced war or the effects of war(which is a good thing) except when it comes down to understanding "why" myself and other soldiers feel the way we do about this mission...

Certainly adds much weight to your argument.

Try to understand this, that like many others on this board i'am a military person, that has seen what a few bad people can do to an entire population. Couple this with Canadian values and morals and i can not stand by and watch as a few make life a nightmare for the many...

And, try to understand, that when many good people would have had enough, they will take control into their hands. You just can't tell others how they should live their lives. You can't think for them, even if in your mind its for their own sake. Think of this: if this was possible, why would we have problems, of poverty, crime, low education, here, in Canada, in our very own culture which we suppose to understand completely and absolutely? And with virutally unlimited (compared to foreign projects) resources?

And while i'm aware that the world is a diverse place to live, and not everyone has to share my values and morals there is a very clear line that man or women are not allow to cross, and in this case the Taliban and thier merry band of comrads have past that mark by a country mile....

You can certainly use this adage to dispell questions and concerns about the mission. I come to kill somebody. I want to think that I'm good. So, they must be bad. The exit from the circle is not in introducing sophisticated mechanisms to determince who's actually good and otherwise, but to not go to kill

As for dictators doing what they do just to be evil, perhaps not, but they did do it for power, and power and the quest for more does corupt...

Interesting; so the same act should be judged good or otherwise, based on what perpetrator thinks or believes? E.g a beliver who blasts into a house killing a few bystanders on the way, because they believe something evil is going on, is any better that somebody who robs and kills for the money?? Very convenient... but hardly new. Anything, all questionable bad and ugly acts were always justified by a want to do goodness.

[Army Guy]

In a perfect world, some kung fu monk traveling the world could spread goodness,and enlightenment. But the Taliban understand one thing only it is brute force and violence, they have tied it all together with education and religion, they know nothing else...and will not change because they believe it is how god wants them to live...

You aren't getting it. We shouldn't be going to other people with arms to fight on their land, other than pure and strictly in self defense against real ongoing attack. There's no objective that would justify this.

No i do get it, you chose to do nothing, and hope that it goes away, because it is not our bussiness nor do we have the right to step in and interfer....it does not effect us and therefore should be forgotten....

but not all of us are like you....we can not simply watch a crime again'st humanity go on, any more than we could watch a rape or murder happen in our niebourhood....

That is also not a valid reason to blast the country out and reengineer it.

I bet you would change your mind in a heart beat if you seen for your own eyes the suffering these people face everyday.

That could have been a valid reason - not for an educational invasion, but an action to halt a crime against humanity in progress. If confirmed by legitimate justice process (the link, for all the tragic information provided in it, is a hearsay). The opportunity for which (legitimate justice process) has been lost in a hurried and unnecessary invasion.

Hey don't like that link try the other one Wiki, or better yet just goggle it, taliban crimes, there are thousands of links from all sides pick one , just read it...go to the UN web site it also lists taliban crimes....what shocks me is you've made up your mind without seeing both sides of the story....

Certainly adds much weight to your argument.

Your right it adds nothing, but i can not explain it to you, and do the topic justice....that and you've made up your mind already....i'd post pictures but most of them are to graphic, but you do need to do some research and some reading....

And, try to understand, that when many good people would have had enough, they will take control into their hands

Let me ask you this question, in world war II in the polish ghetto's do you think the jews did not have enough, that they needed to be subjected to more inhuman treatment before they stood up on thier own and fought back....what about those thousands held in the concentration camps did they not get enough, according to you they did not, because they never had the courage or guts to stand up and fight for themselfs....

Or could it be that fear can be a powerful wpn, and when used ruthlessly it can and will be enough to surpress any will to fight back....

You can certainly use this adage to dispell questions and concerns about the mission. I come to kill somebody. I want to think that I'm good. So, they must be bad. The exit from the circle is not in introducing sophisticated mechanisms to determince who's actually good and otherwise, but to not go to kill

Now if this was Mother russia , i'd say you may have a piont, but come on we are Canadians, we are the good guys, and we don't send in our military forces any where without careful consideration.

Interesting; so the same act should be judged good or otherwise, based on what perpetrator thinks or believes? E.g a beliver who blasts into a house killing a few bystanders on the way, because they believe something evil is going on, is any better that somebody who robs and kills for the money?? Very convenient... but hardly new. Anything, all questionable bad and ugly acts were always justified by a want to do goodness.

Bullshit.... and while the killing of bystanders is tragic, it is not the same act, is it....a police officer who kills a multi murder and rapist in the line of duty is not the same type of person nor is it the same type of act....to you killing is bad very bad and those that carry it out are bad.

But let me tell you this every Canadian has the same blood on thier hands as our soldiers....no more , but no less....

[myata]

No i do get it, you chose to do nothing, and hope that it goes away, because it is not our bussiness nor do we have the right to step in and interfer....it does not effect us and therefore should be forgotten....

but not all of us are like you....we can not simply watch a crime again'st humanity go on, any more than we could watch a rape or murder happen in our niebourhood....

No, no don't repeat the same thing over and again. Crime against humanity must be confirmed in a legitimate justice process, or it'll be just another word for "I need a good reason to go in and set things up to my liking". As "you're barbarian and need civilization" before. And then and if it's confirmed, one still does not need to go in and remake them; only make the perpetrators of crime stop; methods for that exist and were discussed already.

If you can change one single mind by force, set them on the right path with your oozing goodness, why not get busy with it in Vancouver west side first?? If you can't, then what's the point of that oozing goodness? To drop a few bombs, get kicked out, and watch the worst tyrant than before emerge? As after Soviet invasion? As after interference in Iran? Those buddies, the same ones who make our righteous blood boil with anger, they are partly of our own making. Clueless meddling, based at best on some far fetched ideals, and at worst, on coldblooded calculation, causes the same kind of suffering and death as tyranny.

i'd post pictures but most of them are to graphic, but you do need to do some research and some reading....

Understand this; that isn't our culture; they are different; they can do things that we don't like and don't accept. They don't have to be like us. And we shouldn't try to make them like us; with whatever justification.

Imagine not so far fetched (and already used) example with well meaing aliens teaching us (by force if necessary - it's for own good, after all) to adopt environental ways to save our planet? Which side would you be on?

Let me ask you this question, in world war II in the polish ghetto's do you think the jews did not have enough, that they needed to be subjected to more inhuman treatment before they stood up on thier own and fought back....what about those thousands held in the concentration camps did they not get enough, according to you they did not, because they never had the courage or guts to stand up and fight for themselfs....

Not to say that the example has any relation to the point being discussed; as I mentioned (try to read carefully), the mechanisms exist to stop a crime against humanity in progress. These mechanisms should be used decisively and relentlessly, until objective is achieved. And that's as far as anyone should go.

Now if this was Mother russia , i'd say you may have a piont, but come on we are Canadians, we are the good guys, and we don't send in our military forces any where without careful consideration.

Bullshit.... and while the killing of bystanders is tragic, it is not the same act, is it....a police officer who kills a multi murder and rapist in the line of duty is not the same type of person nor is it the same type of act....to you killing is bad very bad and those that carry it out are bad.

I don't really like this "good / bad" argument. It has little meaning. Taleban fighter thinks that you're incarnation of evil who came from far away to change their traditions and life. Good fighting bad vs bad fighting good. Try to show actual real difference from them, by not doing the same thing as them (ie. conquering by force). If the ideas we wanted to bring are indeed popular, I just don't see why Afghans themselves won't be able to control their land. You won't ever be able to logically explain this, because no logical explanation exists. The only hope on which the designers of the project count, is that with keeping them under our boot long enough (maybe, for generations) would make them adopt our ways. Whatever chance of success this strategy may have, it's not the right way to invest our resources and our lives.

But let me tell you this every Canadian has the same blood on thier hands as our soldiers....no more , but no less....

With that I can agree. Too bad that we have a stupendous process to push a pen in a xyz office one half of an inch, but invading another country for no reason only takes a minute backdoor decision. Just shows us, and everybody, how advanced our democracy really is. How ready we are to go and teach the others.

[jbg]

Your right there is many countries that need help, or aid, and why we don't do more is beyond me, however left unchecked these countries will remain a breeding ground for those that have the might to force thier will on the defenceless. sticking our heads in the sand will accomplish nothing, just look at Africa, it has little to nothing to offer the world and most of it is in conflict, only because someone has not done anything...

eventually it will reach our shores or effect our lives and we will have to react....to a much larger problem.

And where are the resources to come from to take care of all of these needs? How much of hte help rendered will "help" anyone but the local dictator?

Even more relevant, should we be subsidizing human breeding in unproductive parts of the world?

[Army Guy]

No, no don't repeat the same thing over and again. Crime against humanity must be confirmed in a legitimate justice process, or it'll be just another word for "I need a good reason to go in and set things up to my liking". As "you're barbarian and need civilization" before. And then and if it's confirmed, one still does not need to go in and remake them; only make the perpetrators of crime stop; methods for that exist and were discussed already

I'm curious to know what you consider the legitamate justice process ?. and do you think they were followed in Afganistan ? As far as i know we are still in the process of making the bad guys stop....

Understand this; that isn't our culture; they are different; they can do things that we don't like and don't accept. They don't have to be like us. And we shouldn't try to make them like us; with whatever justification.

You can't have it both ways , one minute you are telling me that we already have methods and laws with dealing with those that break inter national laws and basic human rights, and we have already discussed that........

Bullshit....there is a line in the sand....be it scrib in inter-national law, or basic human rights, or conventions....what ever everyone must meet these minimum laws, codes, what or face punsihment, be it sanction or what ever deemed by the world court or UN...In this case the UN auth the use of force to enforce those and many other mandates.....it's got nothing to do with you different from us, transform him....

Next minute your telling me we have to accept thier behavior , because it is ok to be different....That shooting a women in a soccer staduim is OK in Afganistan for going to school...., and i should be ok with that...except them for who they are....again bullshit...all your doing here is protecting those that commit the crimes....who is going to stand up for the victims....oh right according to you it has to be them....they have to decide enough is enough and stand up for themselfs.....them and only them....the problem with that train of thought, is i wonder if the germans would still be killing Jews if germany had'nt pissed the rest of the world off.....like i said before Fear is a powerful wpn, and in the wrong hands it can and will paralyze an entire population....to the piont it can not defend itself, without outside help....

With that I can agree. Too bad that we have a stupendous process to push a pen in a xyz office one half of an inch, but invading another country for no reason only takes a minute backdoor decision. Just shows us, and everybody, how advanced our democracy really is. How ready we are to go and teach the others

Advanced enough to know the basic, knowing what is right and wrong such as playing polo with your enemies head is a bad thing....., cutting off little girls hands and killing her father before her for the crime of going to school....advanced enough to bring them into our century....advanced enough to give them alittle bit of what we have, no we don't have to make them like us, but there has to be change in order to move forward...

[Army Guy]

And where are the resources to come from to take care of all of these needs? How much of hte help rendered will "help" anyone but the local dictator?

Since we can not handle militarily more than one mission at a time, then it makes that easy, same source we are getting our funds from now....

Even more relevant, should we be subsidizing human breeding in unproductive parts of the world?

How does that fit in with basic human rights, because they live in an unproductive part of the world we forget about them, or do we continue to read about the thousands that die daily on the 4 th page of the news and go on about our lives...

[myata]

I'm curious to know what you consider the legitamate justice process ?. and do you think they were followed in Afganistan ? As far as i know we are still in the process of making the bad guys stop....

No. You're trying to rebuild their society by our standard. Making bad guys stop would involve, first of all, agreeing on what constitutes fundamental human rights. Not the balloon rights (democracy, freedom of press, yada) that are taken out of pocket whenever needed to preach and invade. But those rights that most, 99.9% of stable societies uphold; like right to life; or personal freedom. Note that male homosexuality, or female literacy won't be one of those fundamental universal freedoms. Which doesn't in any way mean that we shouldn't have them. Only that we can't go around the world forcing them on people who aren't ready to adopt them, whenever we find it convenient.

And once everybody in on the same page regarding real Rights (as opposed to ephemerial declarations of rights), it won't be hard (compared to the cost of reeducating entire society) to stop people who allow and perpetrate mass violation of those rights. Simply by applying pressure where it hurts most, until desired outcome is achieved. Which is, the restoration of fundamental rights. Not 100% female literacy; not pluralistic democracy; not freedom of press. It does mean that they can't have these freedoms; only that they'll have them at the time and in the form of their choosing, rather than our liking;

When we come and promise this thing and that, some, small and more advanced part of society may buy in. Where most, majority, won't, simply because they aren't ready. Because it took our own civilization centuries of bloody wars to get where we're now. So, then the society resists, hurts those early adopters of foreign ideals, it's our guilt more than those who resist. After all, they are in their own land, defending their own way of life. They aren't obliged to follow our laws, traditions and morals. Only theirs.

You can't have it both ways , one minute you are telling me that we already have methods and laws with dealing with those that break inter national laws and basic human rights, and we have already discussed that........

Bullshit....there is a line in the sand....be it scrib in inter-national law, or basic human rights, or conventions....what ever everyone must meet these minimum laws, codes, what or face punsihment, be it sanction or what ever deemed by the world court or UN...In this case the UN auth the use of force to enforce those and many other mandates.....it's got nothing to do with you different from us, transform him....

And I'm not. The line is where the fundamental rights of life and personal freedom are. Mass infringements of these rights are crime against humanity and should be stopped immediately. Installation of foreign way of life (whether called "civilization", "democracy", or "socialism") where there's no conditions for that and by force is nothing short of unprovoked interference and should be a crime in its own right.

Next minute your telling me we have to accept thier behavior , because it is ok to be different....That shooting a women in a soccer staduim is OK in Afganistan for going to school....,

This would sound plausible; if female literacy was a long standing Afghan tradition and evil aliens came down to stop it. As it stands though, you're introducing into their traditional society something that was never there. Something that many deem foreign and unacceptable. Just because you've grown up holding it dear does not make it normal way of life for people on the other side of the world. So, then people who bought into your promise of literacy, democracy, etc, get drawn in the middle of conflict, with often sad for them consequences, whose guilt it is? Those who resist, because they are "evil"? Or you, because you do something, without understanding full consequences of your acts? I'll try to help. Would that girl suffer the same fate, if her father didn't buy into promises of well meaning foreigners (often accompanied by a lure of worry free food supply - there, you send your kid to school, you get a bag of grain, we report the progress of female education) who in the end could not ensure their safety?

Edited August 7, 2008 by myata