Army Guy

Eureka: Thanks for the links? And why is there a difference in Afgan taliban and Pakistan Taliban ? If it was so unchallaged then why did they only control 80 to 90 % of the country?

Black dog: I agree with you, upto the piont of the IDF.... and the coalition forces in Iraq. I don't see the use of terror, to rule, or send a message to others etc. Stalin and Hilter were called many things and i agree they were terrorists, proablably the world most infamous ones. A soldier is governed by the geneva convention,when you step out side of that and deliberately target Non combatants to terrorize them to send a message then i would say you stop being a soldier...and become a terorist... Soldiers are to target other soldiers,military installations, goverment installations,manufacture facilties, other infra structure for instance bridges,TV and radio stations etc...those civilians inside those targets are also targets. The wearing of uniforms does not perclude anyone from being a soldier...That being said i would not want to be a soldier in an uniformed army in combat zone with out one as you would be quickly label a Spy and shot for your efforts... PatM: Hey i'm not talking about cutting off a hand for stealing,or being flogged for whatever..i'm talking about excutions for minor offenses for public entainment or to send a piticular message to the rest of the population.. It is again'st the law in Afgan, Pakistan, India to burn women alive...it is tolerated in some courts or the punishment is laughable...the example i used was for looking and talking to men or boys (not cheating) they were set on fire in public to send a message to others that this loose behavior would not be tolerated...this was a terrorist act... Yes they are two worlds apart, if i murdered someone by setting them on fire then it is a crime ...but if i use that act to send a message to the rest of the women it is using terror to spread the word...and is a terrorist act... A terrorist act. The allieds deliberatly attacked the civilian popualation. Because the germans bombed our civilians first does not make it right.... It is made very clear in the genva convention... I'd call it a very unfortunite, but we do not know the entire story...and we don't know if it was random... Yes it is, and colateral damage is expected,but should not be the norm...in any type of warfare... Are you telling me now that the present goverments in Afgan and Iraq are not legitimate. Resistance to occupation is crap...and when the US and coalition are gone they will be fighting each other...or someone else...most of those fighting are from other muslim countries...who have no vested interest in this fight other than the fact they get to kill infidels ( that includes Canadian soldiers, aid workers,NGO workers, any western person). Eureka: Even the Taliban did not have full control over all of Afgan, The northen allaince for example. For that matter even when the Communist Afgan goverment was in control they did not have full control over the entire country. the war lords are just that... War lords ,they have come to power because they are the the biggest and badest in the area...and they are not all Afganis background as you suggested.....you said "some" stayed as Al Quida but were considered mercs...a Very large portion of both the Taliban and Al Quiada were foreign fighters...I've repeated this dozens of times and have provided you with links to back this info , could you please provide links to back-up your claim.

Black dog: Yes, it would...I pray that it does not as i believe the US has enough on thier plate with Iraq.

Black dog: Grotesque is alittle strong, but OK... i have not once said that i as a canadian soldier that i agreed on what is happening in those countries. Nor do i have a choice on who our goverment chooses as allies...I've been to Afgan and seen with my own eyes some of the terror these Taliban "terrorists" have brought to the people of Afgan and yes it has left a bitter taste in my mouth... Eureka: Read some of those links i gave you and tell me if those are actions of someone whos a soldier....and the answer is no to your second question. they were not terrorist. You lost me here can you explain it again... PatM: No i don't like those people who commit those acts,nor i'm i the guy defending them so i can get an opportunity to slam the US......because i call them terrorists does that make me a bad soldier... I hope you not telling me because they are from a different country, have a different religion that those acts are excussable...makes it all right .... They are crimals but when they use those acts to send a message or to terrorize others it is called terrorism...making them terrorist.....Jugding by what you just said i can join the KKK and still not be a racist....

Black dog: I did read the article, just because it is in written form does not make it true.... below is a few referances... 3M80/Kh-41 MOSKIT [sS-N-22 'Sunburn'] The Moskit is a large supersonic anti-ship missile.[1,2] Designed by the Raduga Design Bureau, development of the Moskit began in the 1970s. The Moskit entered Soviet military service in the 1980s aboard Sovremennyy-class guided missile destroyers and several classes of fast attack boats. An air-launched version of the Moskit was first displayed in 1992, and Raduga also reportedly began designs for a surface-to-air variant. Neither variant had entered production as of April 2002.[3,4] The Moskit's control system is manufactured by NPO Altair.[5] Missile assembly takes place at the Progress plant in Arsenyevo in Primorskiy Kray.[6] The Moskit is powered by a ramjet engine and has an estimated top speed of Mach 2.5. It has a launch weight of 3,950kg and carries a payload of 300kg. The Moskit has a range of 120km (250km air-launched), but tests of the Moskit using a high trajectory showed the possibility of increasing its range to 300km.[3,7,8,] The air-launched version can be carried by Su-27 and Su-33 fighters. There is no known submarine-launched version of the Moskit.[9] Russia's export customers so far include only China, which purchased two Project 956E Sovremennyy-class guided missile destroyers armed with Moskit missiles.[6] China has also recently signed a new contract with Rosoboroneksport to purchase two more destroyers by 2005.[10] There are also reports that China is expected to sign contracts for the air-launched version of the missile.[11] There have also been unconfirmed reports that Iran acquired eight Moskit missiles from Ukraine. Iran has also shown interest in purchasing Project 12421 Molniya missile corvettes armed with the Moskit.[12,13] Moskit Missile Characteristics [7] Length (m) 9.385 Diameter (m) .76 Range (km) 120 (ground-launched), 250 (air-launched) Speed (Mach) 2.5 Launch Weight (kg) 3,950 Warhead (kg) 300 Sources: [1] Steven J. Zaloga, "Missile Markets: Uneven Recovery," Aviation Week & Space Technology, 15 January 2001, pp. 181-183; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [2] Michael Waller, "Will Gore's slips sink U.S. ships?" Insight on the News, Vol. 16, No. 18, 15 May 2000, pp. 22-24; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [3] V.P. Kuzin and V.I. Nikolskiy, Voyenno-morskoy flot SSSR 1945-1991 (St. Petersburg: Istoricheskoye morskoye obshchestvo, 1996), p. 332. [4] Eric H. Biass and Roy Braybrook, "Missiles on a cruise," Armada International, June/July 2001; in Proquest, http://proquest.umi.com. [5] Dmitriy Safronov, "'Moskit' stal sovershenno nesekretnym," Kommersant-Daily, 14 April 1998; in East View Russian/NIS Central Newspapers Databases, http://online.eastview.com. [6] Nikolay Novichkov, ITAR-TASS, 16 May 2000; in "First Lot of Russian Moskit Missiles Shipped to China," FBIS Document CEP20000516000142. [7] A.V. Karpenko and S.M.Ganin, "Otechestvennye aviatsionnye takticheskiye rakety," Bastion, 1/2000, pp. 57-58. [8] "SS-N-22 Sunburn," Missile.index Web Site, http://www.index.ne.jp, 1997. [9] Norman Friedman, "India tests new antiship missile," U.S. Naval Institute Proceedings, August 2001. [10] Vladimir Urban, "Destroyers of Discord," Novyye izvestiya, 9 January 2002; in "Shipbuilders Squabble Over New Chinese Destroyer Contract," FBIS Document CEP20020109000348. [11] "Russia Plans To Increase Export Of Moskit Missiles To China," Segodnya, 26 September 1998, p. 2; in Defence & Security, No. 116, 30 September 1998; in East View Military and Security Periodicals Database, http://online.eastview.com. [12] Anatoliy Dokuchayev, "Russia Does Its Own Production," Krasnaya zvezda, 30 October 1999; in "Dokuchayev reviews developments in naval armaments in last 2-3 months," FBIS Document CEP19991102000037. [13] Igor Korotchenko, "Vopreki davleniyu SShA," Nezavisimoye voyennoye obozreniye online edition, http://nvo.ng.ru, No. 3, 1 February 2002. [14] Duncan Lennox, "SS-N-22 'Sunburn' (P-80/3M-80 Zubr)," Jane's Strategic Weapon Systems 36, Jane's Information Group Web Site, http://www.janes.com/, 12 November 2001. {Entered 4/19/02 RG} Again i did read the article, but it is out of date most of NATO have been working on this problem for years....the US Navy have developed a counter to this missle. See below reference ...I can provide you with more if you like... Iran can not hope to pin it's defense of it's entire country on one wpn system, even if it is highly capable... My Webpage

PatM: If it was really this easy to sink an entire American naval battle group...why has it not been done yet....Why did the russians who have thousands of these missles not press the US harder during the cold war....or for that matter today.... These missles have been sold around the globe...Yes they are capable of sinking smaller ships even a aircraft carrier if armed with a nuk....but the defensive wpns available to an entire US Naval battle group...out class most countries...

PatM: A good majority of those war lords that were fighting Russia, support what is happening in Afgan today, and the direction thier country is going...the northern alliance is a good example. You have this impression that the US is the only nation that is combating the taliban forces. They are not, Coalition forces are made up of many european, British, french, German, Canadain units.... There is more happening in Afgan than fighting ...reconstruction efforts are well under way...other nations soldiers have been re building schools, hospitals, mostly out of there own pockets and fund raising activities for a long time now.... the 1 st Canadian Roto helped rebuild the hospital there plus purchased a new Amb...all out of the soldiers pockets and through there own fund raising activites.... But thats not what you want to here...you want to piont the finger at the US and blame them for all your problems ..... And for the record you can call the Taliban anything you want ....i call any group of people that stone a young girl because she showed her face in public a terrorist...i call any group that public excutes people for entertainment terrorists... I call any group of people that regularly sets fire to young girls because they were talking with boys or men Terrorists... Before you stand up for them animals you should atleast know who your defending... But you don't care as long as you can slam the US....

Flea bag: QUOTE No i said most are from other muslim countries. The war with Russia had a very high percentage of foriegn Muslims fighting with the taliban and the other afgan war lords....and they remained after the Taliban took power... this is not true, the Taliban did not come into existence until after the Soviet occupation. I stand corrected...please exchange the word taliban for Afgan Mujahideen fighters...The Taliban did not take come onto the scene until 1994...that being said the rest of my statement still stands true with a high percentage of the Muslims fighters being from other countries other than Afgan. And that they remained well after the War with russia ended. See link below... My Webpage QUOTE Most if not all we talked to were glad the Taliban were gone that they did not live in fear from there secret police.. Flea bag for the most part,you are a well inform person. And your right about the Taliban not making it a secret of thier intentions or methods...But they did make heavy use of Secret police to instill fear into the people. please read a few of the links below... and no i did not make any of it up... My Webpage My Webpage My Webpage

I've read the interview, and the other referances...Not very flattering for the liberals....and a slap in the face for all Canadians... And yet there are liberals on this forum that are defending the statements that were made.... The fact that these statements came from a member of the Canadian Goverment makes me sick to my stomach....The leaders of this nation only concern is votes...not the Nation,not you or me but votes... The leaders of this Nation needs to make decissions based on what is good for the Nation not what will capture the most votes.... the remarks about not condenming the tamil tigers as a terorist group because it might upset delicate negotations is BS...we are either again'st terrorism or we're for it...take a stand thats what true leadership is all about making a decission that is best for Canada whether it is popular or not.... But this seems to be what the majority of Canadians do now walk around with thier pants down around thier knees because they are tired of taking them down every time the liberals decide to give it to us... All any voter can ask is for the elected party to lead the nation...you call taking the middle road leadership.

Gosthacked: Providing the bulk of the troops and equipment for most crisses within the world has it's advantages this is one of them. US troops are not provided immunity instead they are proscuted in the US by the US military court system. they want to prevent thier soldiers for rotting in foreign prisons...Most the other nations do the same only the evac thier guilty persons back to the host nation to be charged there. same thing only the US has refused to sign onto that portion of the agreement. I don't want to sound like an alarmist, But Russia is still very much a threat to Europe and Asia...2 million plus men under arms may not sound much to you but that is ABOUT what is currently serving in the US military... Thier threat is still the main concern of NATO... Yes they are having a few problems with break away states and are trying note i said trying to keep it localized...however i quit confident that if they were to ramp-up and deal with it as the old Soviet union use to those rebellions would be put down in weeks. I said China would not likely attack North America...Taiwan or other interests in asia is a different story....And the US is tied to protecting Taiwan or Japan which will draw in other nations i'm sure, and in that area the US will have it's hands full... As long as tech is growing in leaps and bounds and mankinds need to destroy each other there will always be an arms race...Space has already had wpns placed in it, along with 100's of military sat's..even Canada has military sats in space... The race for spaced based wpns is further ahead than you may think...with most modern countries developing more and more military systems designed for space... As more and more countries depend on space based intelligence systems ,global GPS sats, comunication sats, etc. etc. to regain the advantage on the ground, air, and sea,you must deny these sytems to your enemy ... hence why the race has been ongoing for awhile... I could not agree with you more...but man has been in an arms race since the caveman and i don't see it ending here on anytime soon...

Black dog: No i said most are from other muslim countries. The war with Russia had a very high percentage of foriegn Muslims fighting with the taliban and the other afgan war lords....and they remained after the Taliban took power... During our patrols we talk to everyone we can as part of our PR and recon. Most if not all we talked to were glad the Taliban were gone that they did not live in fear from there secret police...I don't believe they were telling us what we wanted to hear as they told us plenty of what they don't like about our operations and other NATO operations.... I firmly believe that Canadian troops are making a difference there in improving life for the average Afganis....it is because of our repution that the Afgan goverment has asked that Canadian troops to move south to help in some of the more problem areas of the country...

PatM: Check out South and Central America and many countries in the middle east. Many people there are compaining about the outright theft of resources and murder of civilians done by and in the name of the USA. BS...the US pays them well for the resources and has made many countries very well off with these sales. I have not heard of any invasion for the purpose of stealing thier resources.... The resolution that every member nation of the OAS has the right to resist occupation by a foreign invader was pointed right at the USA. Again what invasion...

Black dog: Thats is what i said the Taliban was popular after the war with Russia...but it was thier Brutal riegn of power that has turn most of the population against them... Perhaps you can show me where my info is incorrect. perhaps it is the way i'm trying to express myself.

Eureka: I don't remember bringing up the Al Quaeda. Who openly operated within the Taliban it was the Taliban that threw in all thier marbles to support the Al Quaeda ...And the Taliban are made of mostly Foreign fighters from Pakistan, and the rest of the surrounding countries. including alot of other muslim countries. Then why did you piont it out. thier not resistance but terrorists, fighting a lost cause....I think i'm getting your piont of view you would rather we sit on our hands and do nothing when terrorist threaten our life style or murder there own....Rather than risk anything until they are at our door step.... Well, everyone has an opinion...would you rather we still be debating this in the UN getting no where....which is OK for most Canadians as we are safe here in this country while others die because they failed to meet a dress code, or bear a son...death by stoning, or excuted for public entertainment....

technocrat: Other than peace keeping what else do you think having a military force does for Canada or for that matter any country... What is peace keeping to you? because i think you alittle confused.

eureka: No, the US depends on those resources as a nation...what it needs is to protect it's logistical tail to get those resources into the US....It also needs to protect those nations that provide those resources...IE kuwait...The US pays top dollar for those resouces i don't hear any other nation complaining come pay day... Where do they get the right to use force to take from others? What resources have they taken by use of force...

Gosthacked: Some revamping, try a major overhaul...And no i agree with you no one country should have it's way ...the UN should be a world forum that "ALL" countries have an equal say and vote ...and the veto should be removed...As for the the US being the only country to disagree with the world court BS,russia and China have done so also ...The US has disagree with certain aspects of the worlds court decissions but not the entire system...those areas it has disagreed has been in regards to protecting it's soldiers.... Sure if you think having more than 2 million under arms is no threat...and yes most of the USSR has collasped but they are more than capable of causing a threat in many areas of operation. Chinas military is growing in leaps and bounds faster than any other armed force in the world...Taiwan area is not only a threat to the US but to japan as well not to mention that the people of taiwan do not want to be under Chinas rule... Give me a break, China has no grand scheme to attack the US or Canada with ground forces they will attack by missle but are very aware of Mutual destruction.

Flea bag: Actually, the Afghanis of the 'seven party alliance' (including two with similar names that translated to "Party of Islam"), and others, that fought the Russian occupation were fighting to have an Islamic country, free of foreign intervention. The following two quotes are from the book "Soldiers of God" by Robert Kaplan(sorry don't have the year, my dog shredded the cover and the first and last few pages but I think it came out in 1990) Under the Heading 'The Seven Party Mujahideen Alliance, and under "fundamentalists", reads: That may have been true when they were fighting against Russia, but the Taliban regime was a very brutal one, and has left a bad taste in alot of Afganis mouths. Those that remain and fight are the die hards... those men that i've talked to in Kabul are glad we were there to bring them some peace and some form of law.... Those in southern Afganis i do not know about ,but by the end of this summer Canada will have a full brigade battle group plus a provincail reconstruction team in the southern portion of Afgan. Benefit from what ...the huge poppy trade Afgan has little to offer the US except its next to Russia ...i think in a few years or less you'll find the US will drastically reduce it's numbers in Afgan.

eureka: How is that so, most are not even from Afgan to start with. The taliban formed inside Afgan that actually took over Afgan and it's people...an extreme form of the Muslim religion. The new Afganis goverment was elected by the people of afgan..and NATO is there on request from that goverment to enforce the peace... there may have been a difference in the beginning but there is none now, they don't fight for thier country, they fight because because that is all they know. they are a brutal people made that way over many years of hardship and fighting...

Flea bag: Technocrat was saying that our ideas of what a terrorist is was simlar to racist profiling i was giving him/her some arab examples and some non arab examples. I'm sure there are many laws governing how armed conflict is carried out ,when and by whom...if what you are saying is true then Canada is guilty of aggresion? I've read the convention over many times it is written by lawyers for lawyers. i can ensure you that all of Canada's (ROE) rules of engagement are written according to the conventions they are looked over many times by lawyers and have been judged correct...A member of the taliban is not fighting for a country or religion,but one deemed a terrorist organization....bent on de-stabilizing Afgan... I've said this many times before all i can comment on is what Canada and her soldiers are doing in Afgan....and what ROE's we are following and what we do with prisoners that we have caught....I'm not a legal expert ...i'm relaying this info to you as it has been told to me in the threater of Afgan.... Please don't shoot the the deliver boy...

Get caught stealing from a store your called a thief...get caught in a combat zone with a smoking wpn in afghan and your a terrorist...i don't need someone from the goverment to tell me that when someone shoots at me or my section he's a bad guy... So when the cops pull you over for being drunk while driving they can not charge you or call you a drunk because you have not been to trail yet.......those that are caught by Canadain troops in Afgan are charged and then handed over to the US....Again i can not comment on what the US does just what Canadian combat troops are doing in Afgan.... Like I said: in a "combzt zone" where the indiginous population is heavily armed, how do you separate the "good guys" from the "bad guys". Seeing how its their country, and all. Sleep and sensory deprivation techniques are soft torture. Sure, its not electrodes to the balls, but it's still undoubtedly amounts to inhuman and degrading treatment

Black dog: The US is the worlds largest consumer of resources on the planet and to maintain access to those resources the US goverment has deemed it needs a large military .Does it make sense to me yes and no...there whole being depends on those resources...more than thier concern for health care....but it is there chose right... Yes , but before we get out the big foam fingers Canada has sat idly by and watched more than once.... Technocrat: Maybe if some people could get out of this 'need to check others power' mindset we wouldn't need to spend billions of dollars on machines built with the sole purpuse to bring death and misery to fellow humans. Perhaps spending some of that money on bringing a few billion people clean water would help provide better long term security then a satilite that can blow up a pickup truck from 20 miles up. I would gladly give up my job as a soldier if you could convince the rest of the world to do the same...but that is not going to happen in our time and Man will always be at war...Until then it pays to be prepared..

PatM: It's got nothing to do with being a right winger...A terrorist is anyone that uses terror to gain or achieve a goal...in Afgan that means killing women to send a message that women don't rate an education,and should stay away from the schools... or that a muslim women talked to a NATO soldier....it means killing women for not conforming to thier strict dress regulations.... terrorizing old men and women into helping them gain info on NATO troops...gang pressing young boys into thier service...to strap on explosives.... A TERRORIST is that 12 year old boy whos family is here in Canada...who's father took him over to afgan to fight ..and is now living in gitmo...this same boy killed an american medic... A Terrorist is that arab that tried to light his shoe on fire onboard an aircraft...his shoe had plastic explosives in it.. A Terrorist is that arab that got caught at the border with a trunk full of material that could be used to make explosives.... A Terrorist is timothy Macvia that blew up that FBI building in the. states...

Black dog: Your right, there is no state of WAR that has been offically declared....And that is just a technicality, our country has committed armed troops to an armed conflict to soldiers thats war.. Call them what ever you wish, we call them terrorists as that is exactly what they are. Read section IV Relative to protection of Civilian persons in time of war. Art 5 Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favour of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State. Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention. Lets be clear that operations conducted by Canadian soldiers in Afgan are done according to every art within the convention. And those persons that are captured or detained Are 100 % terrorist captured in the act. and they are handed over to higher authority in Afgan that means the US. I can not comment on US forces operating in Iraq... They are not prisoners of war,but "terrorists" and are not afforded any protection under the convention with exception as they are expected to be treated fairly,afforded trial at the earlist time possiable. they are housed, fed,allowed to practice thier religion...Can you say the same for thier prisoners...what can a NATO soldier expect from thier movement...other than a public beheading...with a machette or dagar... That is not an excuse for roughing -up a prisoners by NATO troops but thier is always two sides to every coin... I'm not a cop..but a smoking AK in a combat zone is pretty guilty to me. I don't know how many were in the wrong place at the wrong time...but like i mentioned before if your in a combat zone and have a wpn odds are your guilty...In the Canadian Area of operations most of the people are unarmed...don't get me wrong it's not Canada..but those that are armed have a reason most are not good...We get to know who's who by constant patroling and talking to the locals...it takes months of this but it is what makes Canadians so sucessful in Kabul..again all i can comment on is the prisoners that are captured by Canadians and they are guilty as charged... Your right it is...and this is what most Canadians have a problem with because they have not been exposed to interrogation ....If the information can save lives or end a battle or war then one has to wiegh the outcome with a charge....in these cases mild forms of interrogation will be used...sleep and sensory depervation, head games...anything short of physical or medical treatments..... Come on who's they...your a smart guy you know they are carry out these acts it makes the news every week....I've gone over months of posts here and there is only a few that condemn or get a small mention of these beheadings ...but nothing like the slams of what the US has done...

CFB Goosebay has been downsizing for years... DND has decided to close it because NATO members are not using it that often with many already pulled out... As much as i'd like to blame the Liberals it was a DND's decision to save some money. It will close soon. Bigdude: We don't need a military...but an eviromental force...Remember that next time you take for granted every freedom you now have..and remember what it cost this nation and it's military....