Army Guy

I agree 100 % , they and DND did little to set the record right.

I think our training and experience in Afghanistan has helped alot , meaning producing Combat vets, but very little in the way of high intensity warfare, Canadian Armed forces have concentrated on insurgent warfare for the last 12 years or so, and we are just getting back to high intensity warfare....Both are extremily different beasts...On the training side.... On the equipment side once again we are geared for Insurgent warfare, nothing more...If canadian forces got involved with the russians on the battle field it would be a short battle....

I'm thinking the debate is already happening , NATO is building up in the area.....Canada is looking at the next move....If Russia continues then what.....

So the question that comes to mind is when do we stand up and take action, once Ukraine is swallowed whole, or do we wait until europe is threatened....at what piont do we tell Putin and his merry gang enough...and how do we know just how far putin is willing to go...

Hence why i said they are being accounted for twice, once in the media "as they have said this is what it is going to cost Taxpayers to purchase F-35's, However when we cut the check to Lockmart is for the 9 bil no more or less.....the other 35 bil will come out of DND Ann budget over the 42 year period....which is really under a bil a year.... Canada as a nation does have that choice NOT to have a fighter, and like you said it would be a retarded choice....it would put the other elements at grave risk...Buying anything has a long term commitment in regards to O&M costs...But adding these costs to the actually cost of the program is nuts.... Every Dept can change in a blink of an eye, including DND. that being said is there are really 3 basic componets to a military, and the defense of a nation, Ships, Fighters, and ground troops....our miltary has already been whittled to the bone, but not funding one of those basic componets and you might as well colaspe the whole organization....and pray that someone else fills that role. Any purchase by the government is dictated by COST, sure their is the little details that will be looked at such as need, defense agreements, etc...but in the end it all comes down to money....and then having a politician with the will to spend it.... Thats a crock of shit, every year DND lets treasury know what it's costs are going to be every year.....nothing changes in DND....Treasury has access to all the files or so i'd hope....they know what our expenditures are before DND does.....The cons knew exactly what would happen if they provided that info.....and they were right....the Canadian public believes that this F-35 project is going to cost 44 plus bil dollars and the Canadian public now have sticker shock....all they hear now is LA la la la la.... DND's numbers are not that far off the company who provided the intial report....in fact they are greater because DND added some things that were not counted.... And you right DND is concentrating on getting this equipment as they have another agenda, bringing Sailors , Airmen, and grunts home to their families....having the best equipment saves lives....WOW i could see it if they got a bonus for spending the most, or pocketed the difference ....those cases i'd say ya, throw their asses in jail....but getting the best equipment for your troops is not a reason not to trust them.....I don't want the public deciding what equipment i need to do my job.....instead the public should be listening to what DND has to say.....and telling DND you have X to spend this year.....

I'm misunderstanding the life cycle costs....more like the rest of the country is misunderstanding the whole concept as well.That includes the media....which repeatily tout the cost for new F-35 is over 44 bil....when in reality the total cost to put CF-35 on our airforce bases is 9 bil, that is the additional cost to tax payers( payable to lockmart).....the O&M portion comes out of DND ann budget and would be the same if we operated F-18 or F-35 or any other modern jet fighter. ( which includes wages for pilots, maint crew, fuel etc etc) and is based over a 42 year space....and while this end all figure is a nice to know for planning purpose, it Has nothing to do with the intial purchase of these fighters.....it is the cost of having Fighter Aircraft. As i stated before the life cycle costs are being mis represented and are being touted as the price of the contract and project.... which is inducing sticker shock to the Canadian public....Below is just one source of media, there are dozens that are using that 44 bil dollar figure.... Parliment and treasury know exactly the break down of DND budget, of each piece of equipment DND owns. and it is required to know how much over the life cycle , but it is not the cost of this project....O&M costs are already captured, such as pilots& maint crew wages....fuel costs, etc etc these expenses are already taken into account yearly..... http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tories-misled-canadians-on-f-35-opposition-mps-charge-1.1148921 Below is link discribes everything that everyone needs to know about pricing and costs for this project....Yes it is from DND.. http://www.forces.gc.ca/assets/FORCES_Internet/docs/en/about-reports-pubs/ngfc-annual-update-2012.pdf

So answer the question why is it accounted for twice, Once in the Annual DND budget....and then added to the costs of the intial purchase of the equipment such as the F-35....In other words the tax payer is paying for the O&M yearly.....then they are fooled into thinking that they are going to pay the all O&M up front on the intial purchase....that is not how any federal dept works....it is misleading.... Hence why in the pass O&M costs were not added to the intial purchase, but rather incorporated into the annual over all DND budget.....we are always going to have warships, aircraft, and army stuff....those cost rarely change....unless they go operational, then DND takes money from other internal funding.... The Average Canadian joe is using the treasuries numbers the "16 bil plus for the F-35" dividing those cost by 65 and assuming that is what we are going to pay for each aircraft.....that is misleading......all O&M costs are already accounted for in the Ann DND budget ......and while that is the price to operate the aircraft for 30 years, that is not the price we are going to pay to have this aircraft on Canadian airfields..... Canadians should have a clear understanding of how much is this going to cost them.....such as how much is the contract worth and what are we getting....extra costs should also be explained such as O&M costs broken down by year..... Trust me when i say this project is not going to intially cost 16 bil to own F-35.....by misleading the public they have caused sticker shock.....

It is being accounted for twice, i'll write it slower for you....The O&M costs for operating each piece of equipment within an element such as airforce, navy, and army are calculated each year, that funding is then given or added to DND total budget each year....That includes new equipment.....If DnD exceeds that funding envelope it has to go back and ask for additional funding.....It does this each year....O&M costs come out of the Annual DND budget..... If O&M is already accounted for in the annual budget, why are you going to account for that funding in the overall price of the project, and then lie to the public and tell them here is what it is going to cost you.....16 bil plus.....O&M cost vary from year to year by including them in the over all price your commiting to a finite funding, in this case 8 or 9 bil with each year being subtracted from the overall total.....it does not work like that.....for good reason, if that equipment goes operational "operated outside it's normal focasted usaged, you'll find in year 20 or so, that funding will be gone, and thats when it will be required the most, as O&M cost go way up....Does the project go back to the government and ask for more funding for the project....no the project is closed, O&M funds come out of the Ann budget. I can see everything all in, as a bench mark, marked out in 10 year cycles, because we as a nation are not very good at buying updated equipment....and it will give the public roughly on what it is going to cost to operate any piece of equipment over a protract period of time.....but it has nothing to do with the price of the equipment and how much the program is going to be worth the day you buy it... When you buy a car do you calculate all the O&M costs then add that to the sticker price.....if that was the case nobody would buy a car or truck.....imigine if i came out and told your wife this truck cost 50 k, add another 60 k for O&M for a grand total of 110,000 ....do you think she would say Sure where do i sign ...., or Are you F***** crazy....thats what the Canadian public are doing now.....

Just curious do these prices include 30 years of operating and maintence costs, and everything else that is required by the treasury Dept.....No piont in conversing it if it does not meet Canadian treasury rules.....Im sure the Ausies would like to hear these prices as thats not what they paid for theirs....

They are misleading the Canadian public, and no one has taken the time to explain it and the break down to the Canadian public.... Maintence ,infra structure, training equipment , training cost, all come out of the already existing O&M budget of DND...So they are being accounted for twice....explain how that is not misleading.... It should have been presented to the public with the cost it would take for Canada to purchase Aircraft, the cost for all new equipment and training aids, wpns.....that would represent the actual cost of the whole program... If the treasurey required a best guess est on how much O&M costs would be it should have been done in 10 year increments....up to 30 years, with a disclaimer that these costs are already included in DND annual defence budget, and are not additional costs to the program.....Thats not being done...

I'm Curious to why the BNA act in 1867 is the one you have chosen as a bench mark, As British imperial control of Canada did not end on that date. infact it continued until 1931 with the Statute of westminster....when we gained legislative sovereignty on all maters except with regards to constitutional laws , those were not given back to Canada until 1982.....we did not get our offical flag until 1965, until then we flew the Union jack, and configuations of it. Just a side note, up until Until 1947, Canada was a nation without citizens. "Canadians" were simply British subjects living in Canada. On Jan. 1, 1947, the Canadian Citizenship Act came into effect and Canadians finally became "Canadian citizens. Very confusing stuff, they say the birth of Canada is 1867, and yet Canada was not a nation per say, it was a land mass called Canada under British rule.....So i ask again why 1867. why not 1931, or 1947 or 1982....And if we indentify our birth date on 1867 as a british conlony why not go further back to british citizens that indentified themselfs as Canadians. such as 1775. They indentify themselfs as Canadians as far back as 1775, with the 1 st and 2 and Canadian regiments....who faught again'st the British forces, along side the American rebels..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_under_British_rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_under_British_rule With all that new info, why does the war of 1775 not count, or the war in 1812, or the boar war, after all the citizens of this era did indentify themselfs as Canadians, and they were defending themselfs and this nation. As for the oath, it has everything to do with it, Afghanistan was in Canada's interest, as part of the defensive pact we had signed as NATO. Maybe you should look up the meaning of Merc to so if the term fits.

What kind of crazy statement is that, "Canada has never been invaded by another that we did not declare war on first! Therefore, not one Canadian has ever died in the defence of Canadians" Are you saying if war is declared by our Government , Canadians that answer the call to duty, are not fighting for Canadians, not fighting to defend Canada ....even when our enemies are on Canadian soil..... I mean once war is declared we should what go home, because we are no longer fighting for Canadians.....Perhaps we both studied different Canadian military history... War of 1812, WW I and WWII seen direct attacks on Canadian soil, with the loss of Canadian men, women, children on top of those the died or were wounded in those actions.... Now we have to change tomb stone data , rewrite history....Stop sending out Vet checks all because they were mercs instead of Canadian citizens answering a call to defend our country..... Perhaps you should read the oath of alligence every member swears to....defending the nation, from enemies foreign and domestic, and to uphold Canadian national interests regardless of where they are.....( part of those interests are the defence pacts we have signed with other nations)..... Sorry WWWTT, but i had expected more from you.

Not everyone that served shares your opinion, but it has already been said here, this is not about if the mission was worth our nations time and money....It's to mark the end of the mission, and to pay tribute to the fallen, wounded, and the burden placed upon the families.... and all it costs is a few mins of silence....

Nothing is going to change, it will be in the media for a short period, but what is going to happen, is the league going to take his team away, No.....Are is players going to leave, NO i mean they already shown that they like their money to much....wearing shirts inside out.....thats scary , a huge statement " NOT" ....So yes the players got their feelings hurt, but they like their contracts to much to make change.... Now in my opinion the only way to get this pricks attention is refuse to play, hit him in the pocket book....when he is not making money he'll sell thats what rich guys do.....players go on strike all the time, why can't a team just say until their is change we won't play....Get the fans involved, tell them to stay away, as a show of support....The guy sits front row seating, a few missed passes that happen to land in his face will wake him up..... Is change needed yes it is, is it going to happen i doubt it very much, Money talks, the rest is bullshit...unless your want to stick up for your beliefs.

Well that was a well thought out reply...It's has nothing to do with what they think, it is a fact. Skilled labors are moving to where they can get better wages, and who can blame them .....and it is having a major effect in the atlantic provinces...I'm sure it is also effecting the rest of the provinces as well.

That would depend on where you live, Atlantic provinces has always been a meca for min wage jobs, and those that wanted more have moved out west in search of better wages, it is now to the piont where alot of skilled labors such as in the construction fields, are so short workers it is effecting new builds even major construction jobs....in fact most maritimer papers are filled with employer ads from out west offering bonus, free moves, etc etc....martime employers can not compete...

It's not Ukraine i'm worried about , it's all that NATO and Russian equipment on the ground, air and sea that is an accident waiting to happen.....

History has shown us through hundrds of examples that the victor does make the rules....like it or not.... You miss the piont...Be like me making up the rules for the fishing industry....not knowing anything about it....

If that was true that we had abandoned our princples then why go through all the effort to change the policies....i think we were caught unprepared, and had to act.... I will give you mahar arar, RCMP made a major mistake....Omar should not of been tortured, but i won't be playing any violin for him.... Like i said taking the high ground is costly, both action and inaction have a price....If the US gave us info on a threat to say toronto sub way, dates and timings according to you we should bury that info because it was tainted by torture....and we let it all happen, because to act would be using that info "that would be against the law" ...sorry i find that hard to swallow.....even harder to explain to the victims.... I do agree with the law that we do not solicite info from countries that torture....or do we activily particapate in torture.... So to hold the high ground we would have to invest in our own intel gather network and appratus if we were not to be realiant on other SUSPECT nations....we can't even equip our military, how do accomplish this great feat....

Perhaps you are right Big Guy, perhaps in the future a new light will expose something different and secrets will be exposed. And those that are guilty are held accountable we could only hope. But today, all we have is accusations made by known enemies , which may or may not be designed to hurt NATO nations. Nothing has been proven, That the Canadian government knew that prisoners were being handed over to be tortured or they would be abused while in another nations custody. Despite serveral investagations, by the military MP's, government appionted team, and by NATO even the UN. None of them have proven with out a doubt that Canada has commited any war crimes. Canada has changed it's policies on POW's during this conflict serveral times, to reflect changes that became known at the time, it was presured to change once it became known that US may have abused it's prisoners it held....then once again when it came to light that Afghanis may be doing the same. I will admit our policies may not have been the best, or covered all the things that could have gone wrong....but i believe we did not do them with the intention of abusing prisoners, be it to retrieve vital info, intel or etc.... When i first glanced at your comment "The nature of war is a series of atrocities, usually on both sides" i thought the word Atrocities was a bit harsh, normally used to discribe things such as the Holocaust, but when i thought about the bombings in germany i'm sure the german public would have used the same word to describe the allied action. I have constantly struggled with articulating what war is, and what it is like....your explaination sums it up very well... Like everything war is governed by rules, rules crafted in a room by men that for the most part that had no first hand experience of war.....Those rules were designed to control the insanty of warfare, to appease those back home, to give them the illusion of standing on the high ground..but on the ground in a soldiers boots, there is no high ground...every where you look is death and destruction....you pray that every decision is the right one, that you can keep your guys alive another day, that you don't break any rules, that you don't kill innocent civilians, that you use only enough force to get the job done....all of this in most cases is done in milli seconds.....and your right sometimes it does not work out in your favour.. All that being said most of the times the Canadian public do not understand war, what they understand is the high ground, sometimes the high ground is not achievable.... Like sharing info, why would we expect any dept not to use any info that has been tainted by torture....In defending our nation, why would we not atleast look at it, validate it.... Or pass on info to our allieds, vital info in ref to threats why should we be held accountable if that nation chose to take it and torture someone over it ....How would we know what their intentions are before hand.....I would understand if we had did it to intentional have someone tortured....But if our intention was to save lives....then why not....

Are you saying we had proof that the US was torturing inmates, while we were handing them over.....Because what i've read is that is the very reason we stopped handing over prisoners to the US and started with the Afghanis.....And while those same prisoners said they had been tortured by Afghanis officals that story was proven false.....So i'll ask again what war crimes has the entire nation of Canada been complict in.

Enlighten us.... eyeball what war crimes has the entire nation of Canada been complict in ?

The topic is not about handing over people to be tortured, it's about sharing info that may lead to torture.... Prisoners handed over to Afghan Government ....it was never proven if any Prisoners that the Canadian Military handed over were in fact tortured, lots of stories but no proof .....Now Prisoners that we handed over to the US government well not so much, but that practice stop as soon as our government found out about gitmo, and we began handing them over to the Afghan government ,as it was to expensive to build and operate our own prison....

Liberal majority..... because of horny women, and young people that have no interest in Politics....well sir that is a game changer.....It's good to see your excitement about politics....but i think you've got the wrong horse....

Sometimes the end does justify the means, dropping of the bombs can be argued here for years, a whole topic on it's own.... and to break it down alittle further, when we did raids on suspected bombers in Afghanistan, i did never question where the intel came from, nor did i care ....the only thing i was thinking was we made the roads alittle bit safer for us to travel on... So if Canada has intel info that can prevent another 9/11, or for that matter any allied incident , we should remain silent, just incase those names mentioned in that intel might get tortured.....and what if that country does the same, and this time 3000 Canadians get killed, be it here or overseas.....we live with that because that way we will have stood on the high ground...thats a high price to pay for the high ground.... Be a hard sell to the surviving victims family.....yes we are sorry, yes we did know of the attack, but we could not tell anyone because we thought the info could trigger some country into torturing those responsable.... I get it there is no ticking bomb, or those cases are very rare.....but as allieds we share info all the time,even if it has been gathered through torture.....all info needs to be vetted, and sourced once again.....to verify it.... as we all don't have massive intel gathering networks, even a scrap piece of info may be the one, your missing to solve that problem....this saves lives....time and funds....info is time sensitive and dies an early life.....We share info all the time in Afghanistan, about bad guys, bombers, suspected terrorist operators and it saved lives.... I agree that Canada should not have anything to do with torture....But i also agree that once that info is out there... that we should not close our eyes to it so we can hold the high ground........if it is valid and a threat to Canada action should be taken, and that info used to it's fullest.....Does that make us evil....No... Canada has a high standing when it comes to treatment of prisoners of war, but anyone who served in Afghanistan knew exactly how becoming a prisoner of war would turn out.....regardless of what our actions had been....Canada was lucky we did not suffer any captives...