Army Guy

Thats a slam....All i'm saying is Churchill is wrong in the terms of today right here right now... "Wow" one person, must of been a very powerful conversation, to have you paint an entire country and it's history with one brush....I've done 3 tours in Afghanistan, been in Kabul, and traveled around much of the south most of that time, everyday coming into contact with local afghanis people. most were really good people ,some really bad...I was there in the start of Canada's commitment....and my last tour was just 7 mounths ago.... I to know how the war lords operate, as the taliban are not the only bad guys in the country...I don't think you'll find anyone outside of Afghan describe has heaven and earth...But ask your friend if he would rather live under the Taliban or Kharsi....

I'm sorry for not being clearer. I was talking about Omars case before the Supreme court of Canada, in which they decided his rights were violated. As some on this forum have suggested time and time again one of the key componets to those rights violations where that the CSIS agents knew that Omar was tortured, and did not protect Omar and his rights....And yet it was not a major or minor topic in the SC of Canada decision. However the Court transcript did not mention torture nor spend any amount of time on the topic...., nor did Omars lawyers execpt to say he "may" have been tortured....like mentioning he "may" of been to the moon....MY piont was if they could have proven this to the SC of Canada they would have as it would have been a major feather in their cap. And perhaps large enough to perhaps have the SC of Canada force the government into action....Since this was not done I'm assuming that the torture aspect of this trail has no merrit. So i ask you if Omars lawyers had a chance to futher his case do you not think they would of....or perhaps the torture thing is over blown and can not be proved....

I don't recall any headlights let alone slamming churchill. things change they always do....in this case he's wrong... Have you been to Afghanistan, studied thier culture, talked to Afghanis, or are you basing your opinion on historical facts... Changing what culture ? The Taliban rule was not based on any culture...it was thier ideals that they forced upon the people...though terror and brutal force..... But they also had access to all the resouces they needed....

Your not giving the court or Omars lawyers much credit are you...don't you think that if they could have proven it they would have....it would give Omars case a major boost....

I think you've just proven Gabriels piont, thats because there was'nt any torture. And yet it is a very popular belief in this forum that there was....

So it must be true, shit Churchill said so...to which i say bullshit...we as a human race can over come any obsticle provided thier is enough resources put towards it... I wounder if those NASA scientist who stared at the moon, had just said you know joe Historically no one has every been into space, let alone landed on the moon....Ya your right lets forget the entire idea....

I think what it boils down to now, is are we as nation going to have these violation of rights trump Omars other charges...When in fact it was but a few CSIS agents who failed in thier task to protect Omar...No investagation into this matter....I'm alittle confused here, had this been a soldier we would have been in court or in front of some board of inquiry by now....I Bring this up because the action of these agents have blacken Canada's reputation....in regards to Omars rights never being upheld... Other than this , Omar's case really stands on what legs today...

Since we are talking about a court of Law here, one can not assume anything one must be able to prove it...It works for both sides. The US government might not be able to convict Omar on throwing the grenade as they assumed because he was the only one left alive who could have done so....

Actually there is a need to define it, and it is defined under the Genva convention, Inter national law and Canadian law. Under which it states "...any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental"... This same content is used under all 3 of the above agreements that Canada has signed. Omar was not subjected to torture in fact his own lawyers have quoted he may of been subjected to torture...they did not say he was subjected to torture...Even our supreme court does not mention he was subject to torture...and thier main bone of contention was his other rights were not protected....hence thier judgement...

I think most Canadians will agree that our soldiers are paying a signicant part of the cost for this mission. Is it worth it, i think it is, but thats one opinion, but then again there has been thousands of soliders opinions recorded in the media, you'd be hard press to find a negative one....I also think that the fact that this mission is made up of strictly voluteers, speaks volumes to that fact...and a large portion of those volunteers are repeats serveral times over...it is not uncommon to find soldiers with 5 or 6 tours....and yet they continue to stick thier hands up, and it's not for the money, because really it's not all that great. it's not because we want to be in combat, because it's not all that great either... It's about being a Canadian Soldier, part of a world class military, from a country that has so much to offer, .It's about using all our training , abilities , resources to accomplish something good...not just combat , but changing lifes...one at a time....It's this helping others that has got our soldiers hooked, seeing a major changes in every roto that we do...good changes not just in the schools we build, the dams we build, the hyways we build, but the Afghans using them to improve thier lives...I've yet to talk to a soldier who has come back and said that was a waste of time and effort....and if some how we could convey that to the people of Canada i'm sure we would be staying until the job was done. Thats what our soldier want to stay and finish the job, so we don't have to come back, so our cost already paid will not be for naught.

I found this while doing some research on the conventions and Canada laws refering to Omars case. I'm not sure what to make of it . It's a copy of a court transcript filed Under Omar... While we have spent alot of band width discussing Torture or what constuits it...the court documnet does not spend a lot of time on it. infact it only suggests that what happened to Omar "May" constuit torture...i think it goes along way into explaining the courts actions...perhaps someone can give us a deeper explantion. The para i'm reffering to is under the OVERVIEW, and in Para 7 My linkwww.law.utoronto.ca/

Thanks waldo.

That question is answer every time those aircraft arrive in trenton, amd those coffins are lowered to hallow Caanadian ground for the final time...It's been answered well over a hundrd times have you not been listening....or perhaps you've been ignoring them.

I'd still like to read a cite as i can not find one, to get the entire picture from all sides..One would hope that the courts did infact look at this charge in detail and using Canada's own definition of torture and compare them with actual events. not those displayed in the media where it is assumed that was torture of the worse kind. But in stating all that... Where do you think this is all heading...is it preparation for something to come....I just have a bad feeling that in one years time from now i'll be reading the news and it's headlines will read, Khadr set free, landmark lawsuit settled for millions....later on to be seen on terrorist networks on thier version of cribs....showing off thier new multi million dollar home....mean while back in the states they'll show the home of Sgt Speers widow, Canadian justice at it's finest....Or for that matter lets show them our wounded vets in court trying to stop government claw backs from meager wounded benifits....

So let me get this straight, Amnesty international is the worlds leading experts on the defination of torture. Not the UN or geneva convention but AI. And they have declared in this case of Omars defense that he was subjected to torture based on all the facts in this case. Is there a cite for this claim? I mention that because it is really a major portion of the claims made by some on this board that Canada is guilty of violating Omars rights. They have indicated that CSIS persons interviewed him knowing that he had been tortured and did not take any action on his behalf....And will play a major role "if" he is returned to Canada for proscution... I'm not sure i'm ready to refer to AI for what may or may not be a large payout of tax payers money to a known terrorist.

Does'nt really say much about the Canadian people and thier exceptance of going to war does it...As for knowing it was futile, i doubt very much that Most Canadians could find Afghanistan on a map, today let alone when this whole operation went into effect.... Do you really think the average Canadian has perspective on things in Afghan, I don't....here is some of thier arguments the NO sayers have for perspective... 1. Historically no country has been able to defeat the Afghan people. Which makes it a mission Impossiable...Can not be done regardless of what we do. 2. You can not defeat an ideal, in this case the taliban Ideal, .... 3. You can not defeat a terrorist group with military forces.... 4. NATO military actions are drive Afghan people into the Taliban arms, and creating more taliban fighters. 5. We support our soldiers not the mission. And the list goes on and on, and on....would you say those are the factual perspectives based on what is going on thier now... Your point about The West is true, but I would say that things have changed over the last 8 years or so.

Canada is not alone in the south, there are dozens of countries that are also involved in the fight, and our district while very hostile is not the most dangerous , try the Hemlend district which the british operate in.... That being said our military has been operating above it's wieght for some time now, and has been accomplishing the jobs and tasks assigned to them but thats thanks to our soldiers that do more with less....The same soldiers that want to stay and finish the job....But it has not been carrying all the weight, not even close...considering the British in the hemland with twice the amount of troops and equipment....

It's not historical precedent that wins wars, it's countries with the will to win, thats what wins wars...had we followed historical precedent Vimy would still be in german hands... I hope your counting the majority of Canadians in that blood thristy crowd you talk about...and war isn't Hollywood....if there been more coverage on the Afghan people and the day to day fight they contend with , i think most Canadians would still be in favor of destroying the Taliban and thier cronies....

Kind of Ironic that it was the Battle winners that decided to save Khadrs life, who decided to write the history as it is today...even you admit it was US soldiers that decided to take action and save this mans life... But i'm wondering what did the members of Al Qaeda decide that day, what where there actions which involved this kid...there actions where to gun down 3 Afghanis soldiers who where knocking on the door...there actions where to bring the fight to those soldiers...knowing full well it was not going to end well for them....

Here is where we disagree, and while the killing of an armed under age terrorist would be regretable, It would strenghten my resolve that this terrorist group needed to be stopped, and brought to justice as these crimes of using children in battle are but just one on a list that is very long... But then again we are from opposite sides of the coin. he see it as a blight again'st Canada, and NATO...i see it as a blight again'st the taliban and it's terrorist comrads... What is Canada's policy on crimanals placed under custody in foreign jails or prisons, what is the policies for bringing back combatants or terrorist serving in foreign prisons...do they all get the treatment we requested for Omar....Just a question.

And what of the new Pie detecting devices that see thru crusts....who's going to pay for them...will other pies protest as it would be a form of porno...imigine seeing naked pies all day, forced to look at fat double crusted pies, burnt pies,topless pies, even hairy pies, ....where is this country going to stop all this....

Shit...shady you'd be branded a Terrorist, a meat pie terrorist the worst kind....

If found guilty Capt Semrau will serve his time...And justice will be served...I wonder do you think he'll get a 2 for one consideration, maybe a braclet...or maybe we should demand the full sentence be served ... But you failed to answer the question...if khadr had been killed on the battlefield would you have had the same reaction...

Here is what the Canadian experts are saying...MIGHT happen if Khadr is brought back.... He'd be released and subect to wearing an elctronic braclet....Man that is one harsh sentence..does our justice system proud...but what do i know... mean while hundrds of our vets sent over to smash the same organization that Mr Omar belonged to....hundrds of them that have been disfigured and maimed for LIFE might have to run into young mr omar in the streets of toronto....wonder how that will go down...Seems fair our vets handed a LIFE sentence....omar got what time served and a braclet.... My linknews.globaltv.com/world/story

We don't have to like the solution, but lets not forget we are thier because his government invited us there, this may be edvidence that NATO is not pulling the strings but the Afghan government is. We also agree to assist them in rebuilding thier country, not to our standards but to Afghan standards...and once again we don't have to like it, but rather support them in thier slow process of regaining thier country back to a form acceptable to most afghanis. One also has to remember that alot of those Taliban fighters are fighting for money to feed thier families, and may not be tied to the taliban because of thier beliefs but rather they pay better than the Afghanis government...in this country money talks alot, and so does feeding your family.... Can't please 100 % of the people all of the time....there are alot of unsavory characters already in the Afghanis government shit their is alot of unsavory characters in our government. in the end it is the Afghanis people who will have to decide who goes and who stays through elections... Shit we have terrorist in this country that peacefully pursue thier agenda's, and we turn a blind eye....if you understood the afghan people then you would know they are not willing to live under taliban rule again...and if taliban want to remain in power then perhaps it is them that will have to change thier ways or not get re elected... I like you, fine...sir Bandelot in fact i like you more than some of the other posters here atleast you can string thoughts together and express an idea....with some facts...