Army Guy

Sir Chauncy: Has anyone ever thought that his remarks were not targetted at the average Canadain citizen but to his soldiers in a language that we understand and respect. For someone who dislike insults your prettt free with them. What does make him an arrogant jerk, those few words he spoke, or his actions in Afganistan. or perhaps you agree with Parrishs words and we in the military are all just beasts....

Black dog: No, not exactly. Our orginal mission was to fight terrorist or taliban our role changed when we moved up north to help with the security of kabul...now our role is being changed again and the camp is moving down south around Kanadar, they will be running many different types of missions out of Kanadar, fighting the taliban,done by our JTF and regular army troops...the PRT's (provincal reconstructing teams) have a separate mission which is to rebuild infra structure etc and will not be doing any fighting unless engaged by the taliban... Yes, your right...however i've explained this before we do not arrest or detain persons unless they are caught red handed either in combat or about to engage in combat...

canadian_conservative: I'm talking about the Average Canadian and what they think. Security is the ability to protect your soveriegnty they are closely tied together but two completely different things. My piont is Canadians have paid security issues only lip service, and are of the opinion that "who would challange Canada's soveriegnty" and we don't need security. My question to you is that if we had the security forces required to protect our soveriegnty do you think Denmark would be landing military forces on this island. I did not say you could not care about both, just that the majority of Canadians have other priorities than security...Health care, education, to state a few, and there is little funding for all of it....

Black dog: Actually the debate has already happened, all that is happening is we are continuing on with the orginal mission, just in a different location. Yes, Canadain troops will be under US Command and control, that being said the Canadian commander does have a say in how they will be deployed. As for the POW's nothing has changed they are handed over to the US for processing.

The Kandahar Mission is much different than our current mission in Kabul. And the PRT (provincal reconstruction teams) are just a small part of the new mission. the main focus will be assisting the US in bringing the fight to the Taliban. There is no new money for DND, the monies the liberals promised will not even bring DND out of the red for another couple years, even then there will not be enough for any major purchase of any equipment....Don't let the liberals fool you with all thier promises in regards to DND...Gen Hillier is restructuring the dept so we can atleast carry on with our jobs with what little monies our goverment gives us.

Before we start warming up the military. Do Candians really care about soveriegnty or thier sucurity.

Black dog: Heavy lift aircraft are a strategic transport required for bringing in huge loads of equipment and supplies into rear bases. or for getting large amounts of equipment and supplies into areas very quickly like the recent deployment of the Dart team... The normal transport aircraft like the ones we have now the C-130B and H models are tactical transports much smaller loads and can use short unprepared runways closer to the frontlines. Canada does have a need for heavy lift aircraft just based on the size of our country, the amount of overseas deployments our Armed forces does, and the state of our current fleet of C-130's. Our fleet of herc's is taxed to the very limit just sustaining our troops in Bosina and Afgan. As for the russian equipment yes it 's cheaper but you get what you pay for. besides Russia is no longer producing the heavy lifters that we continue to rent. niether is the US producing the C-5. Someone mentioned the C-17 heavy lift aircraft earlier the last ones were offered at 150 milion a copy, however the British have leased some from the US. Perhaps Canada could lease some as well. Canada's military is going through it's current inventory and getting rid of or retiring everything that will not fit into a C-130. it is purchasing new equipment based on that however (which is another debate) it is very difficult to find light equipment that affords the same protection and fire power as the over sized equipment we have now... plus there is the fact that we have always deployed by ship where there is no weight or size limit...

Maybe he was'nt talking to Canadains but using the media to talk to his soldiers. Gen Hillier's comments were blunt and to the piont i think a few people have forgotten that he his not a polition but a Soldier. Parrish should take a trip on tax payers money over to Afgan and see for herself what those beast of Canada are doing in the name of our Flag.

Hugo: No Germany was not made to accept full blame for the war. Hungary and turkey both signed thier own treaties and were punished just as much as Germany....I don't recall saying it was unfair, the Versailles treaty along with the other treaties signed were to act as a deterent for another world war. Did they work not in germanies case. NO, that is not the same at all, your orginal comment was that no one from the Waffen SS served in concentration camps. which they did i've provided prove of that....The SS was a separate element, like the Army, navy, and airforce are separate element in our military, The Waffen SS were the military arm to that element. and comprised of a complete corp, normally made up of 3 or more divisions, in this case the St-TV was one of them dating back to 1940. it came under Waffen control completely by 1942...this division was almost completely wipe out in 1942 and it's replacements came from reg troops....and by 1944 SS personal were rotated through the camps.... All it proves is that Waffen SS persons did serve in concentration camps. Those pers that served in the other SS divisions were no angels either. each division having long lists of war crimes out of the dozens of SS division i think there was only 2 that had clear records... It proves that concentration gaurds were fighting in the Waffen SS in 1940. and refutes your claim that they were none serving in the waffen SS at all.

Hugo: But earlier you had said: QUOTE As for germany suffering from "war guilt" as you claim perhaps they should have thought of that before invading Belgium. They were responsiable for WW I, they knew the risks before they attacked, Germany got what it deserved nothing more nothing less. Earlier we were talking about Germany and Germany alone, hence why i said they were responsable for WW I, Your right i should have chosen my words more carefully. Yes i am, Germany was responsible for Millions of lives lost on all sides. As for Germany not starting the War, it did Bring War to Europe by declaring war on France and Belguim did it not ? It may not have had anything to do with what has been declared as the starting piont of WW I. But they did decided to widen it by taking action again'st France and Belguim. Yes the treaty of Versailles did punish Germany exclusively it was Germanies treaty....each of the nations involved had thier own treaties. And were pusished separately. Some of thosed treaties are mentioned in the link below....surf the site and you'll find alot more of the treaties and punishments that were given out. treaties I'll try this one more time, SS Was a separate element of the Nazi party ie like the army,navy,airforce etc.... The Waffen SS was a fighting formation within the SS. The SS-TV was a formation that controlled Concentration camps,etc etc....which also had fighting troops under it's command...due to it's rapid expansion they took the excess of fighting troops and built a SS-TV fighting division. This division along with everything else belonging to the SS-TV were then put under the Waffen SS control in 1940, in 1942 the Waffen SS had fully control over the Camps,etc,....But the SS-TV division was fighting within the Waffen SS organization in 1940. In the French campaign the Waffen SS provided the army with three divisions, and also several regiments. Senior army commanders proved quite receptive to the high level of enthusiasm and effectiveness that the SS troopers exhibited in combat. Even when soldiers from the SS Totenkopf Division—drawn from concentration camp guards—murdered more than one hundred British prisoners of war at the town of La Paradise on the Dunkirk perimeter in 1940, neither the army nor the SS took disciplinary action. How do you explain the above para.

Sparhawk: Yes, the somalia incident was done by a few misguided souls, that were infact Canadian soldiers. But there is more to this case than a simple murder. But you are right i failed to mentioned it. Thank you. In this case the institutions created more mess, with thier reaction.

Black dog: Good question ? Canadians are very liberal minded when it comes to anything military, war etc....with good reason....why did we enter the conflict on the war again'st terrorism and not the Iraq war ....Canadian soldiers are made up of those very same Canadian people. Why is it were are world reknown for peacekeeping, not our war abilities...I don't really know why we are so special but i am proud to be Canadian and doing what i do, and don't think i could do that for any other country... In my 25 years of service i've not seen it happen... i've been to some of the shittest spots on the globe, and Canadain soldiers have always acted professional and have never as a group brought shame to our country or flag.... but you are right it depends on training, and which wins out...and i hope Canadian soldiers continue to make the right chioces....And you are right civilized troops have commited crimes....

Hugo: Yes it is ,Germany intiated the war with France and Beliguim, and Yes i agree with you it did not intiate WW I. My statement has been along that Germany must be held responsable for it's actions. and only it's actions.... Your comment was a mutual defense agreement in the defense against a russian attack....does this give Germany rights to attack France, France had not been given time to react to the fact that Germany had entered war with russia.... Germany had taken that fact and sought to use war as a tool for it's own expansion.... The states of Germany, and Austro-Hungary. And i have had my eye on a BMW but that does not give the right to take one off the lot without paying for it....And what actions did france take to retake alsace-lorraine...Germany did take offensive actions to take France and Belguim, and for that part were punished... By the time World War II began the number of members rose to 250,000 and the Waffen-SS was formed in December 1940 to fight alongside the Wehrmacht, Germany's regular military. The SS also received control of the Gestapo in 1934 and, that same year, Adolf Hitler had given the SS jurisdiction over all concentration camps. The above quote is taken in the first link... By the summer of 1934, the SS had taken control of all concentration camps from the SA and a new organization, the SS-Totenkopfverbande (SS-TV) had been established as the SS Concentration Camp service. The original SS-TV was organized into six Wachtruppe at each of Germany’s major Concentration Camps. The Wachtruppe were expanded in 1935 into Wachsturmbann and again in 1937 into three main SS-Totenkopfstandarten. This structure would remain unchanged until 1941, when a massive labor and death camp system, in the occupied territories necessitated the concentration camps to be placed under the Waffen-SS into three main divisions of Labor Camps, Concentration Camps, and Death Camps. As this one is.... After 1934, the running of Germany's Concentration Camps was placed under the total authority of the SS and an SS branch known as the Totenkopfverbande (SS-TV) was founded under Theodor Eicke. Known as the "Death's Head Units", the SS-TV was first founded as several regiments, based at each of Germany's major Concentration Camps, the largest of which was at Dachau. In 1938, the Totenkopfverbande expanded also into a military division, with the founding of the Totenkopf division which would, by 1941, become a full division of the Waffen-SS. 1934 was a common year starting on Monday (link will take you to calendar). ... And this one: In 1942, for administrative reasons, the guard and administrative staff of all the concentration camps became full members of the Waffen-SS. Is this where you take your quote from....the above quotes more than prove that the Waffen SS had concentration gaurds in thier ranks as early as 1941... By 1944, with the Concentration Camps fully integrated with the Waffen-SS and under the control of the WVHA, a standard practice developed to rotate SS members in and out of the camps, based on manpower needs and also to give assignments to wounded Waffen-SS officers and soldiers who could no longer serve in front line combat duties. This rotation of personnel is the main argument that nearly the entire SS knew of the Concentration Camps, and what actions were committed within, making the entire organization liable for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Source from source 2 as you can plainly see it mentions 1942.... SS Division Totenkopf originally formed from excess (A penal camp where political prisoners or prisoners of war are confined (usually under harsh conditions)) concentration camp guards, though most of these had been killed by 1942 after being encircled in the Valdai Hills on the Russian Front, and were replaced by ordinary volunteers not associated with the concentration camps. This taken from source number 3, clearly shows that in 1940 the totenkopf div was part of the waffen ss it even mentions they were made up of concentration guards how does that not prove my post.... In the French campaign the Waffen SS provided the army with three divisions, and also several regiments. Senior army commanders proved quite receptive to the high level of enthusiasm and effectiveness that the SS troopers exhibited in combat. Even when soldiers from the SS Totenkopf Division—drawn from concentration camp guards—murdered more than one hundred British prisoners of war at the town of La Paradise on the Dunkirk perimeter in 1940, neither the army nor the SS took disciplinary action. please re-read those links and you'll find they do support my argument...and totally disprove yours ....

Black dog: Isn't that exactly what you said? To wit: Yes it was but the state used false advertising i guess you can call it. Germany had full control of the media at the time, these young men and women were convinced that it was in thier best interest to serve germany, the Riech...what i have a hard time believing is that everyone of those germany soldiers thought it would be in the best interest for thier country and the Riech to kill women and children up close. In todays Canada the state does not control the media, OK all the media....i find it very hard if not impossiable thta the state could convince liberal minded Canadians it was all right to eleminate a race of people to include women and children. Your right i can not prove it, but basing my comments on my experiance, nor can it be proven that most did it out of blood lust.... They are reprogramed to a piont, even grossmen states facts and figures on how many troops even fired thier wpns during WW II some where around less than 40 % he even states that these numbers get better as time passes like korea numbers to up to just over 60 %....this is done at dehumanizing the enemy by comparing them to animals, insects, training is done on paper targets over and over again so at a distance that is what the soldier believes he is shooting at....the problem comes when the soldier actually sees the enemy dead up close. as a human being.... Grossman also states that they have not invented a perfect training method....But yes that is what the military does it beats the individual out of you then begins training you as a team. What it does not do is teach you to embrace killing or the need for destruction, you still need to function in society as a regular person.... what i've been saying is that this training is also reinforced with the rules of war the genva convention....to get todays Canadian soldiers to commit these crimes would mean a total reprograming

Blackdog: My piont, is that before these guys entered the service, they are subject to the states media machine, to entice these guys into volenteering they make no mention of killing civilians, women or children etc, etc, The media machine glorifies war making it sound like a game , to serve thier country and cause was honourable undertaking.... However once they are on the battle field or in the SS as we were talking about a soldier quickly finds out that war is not glories or full of honour....and that his orginal intentions change....he never signed up to kill women and children but does so out of fear..... That is just my piont in todays Canada do you think that the social prohibition over killing would ever change keep in mind Canada is a very liberal country. I've read the book we actually still use many of the training methods mentioned...However they've added alot into that training as well...such as the genva convention training, and through computerized training sims the who to target, and when to shoot seris...much like the police use.... One of the reasons it was modified was soldiers where having a hard time re adjusting to regular life...

Hugo: You are reversing your argument, Germany had a serveral chioces Not to invade in the first place, or once germany or the allieds had bled dry to offer a peace accord then pulling troops back to the orginal borders. Germany was looking at only one thing the conquest of France and Belguim and for that it was punshed. History proves you wrong. Hugo you do have good debating skills but when it comes to history you suck, or to use your words "an intellectual gaint you are not" Germany declared war on france first, on the 3 Aug 1914....france responded on the 4 Aug...Germany took the first step, by taking offensive operations against Belguim then into france. Theres an excuse for going to war. Not providing passage so Germany can strike at france....give me a break, Germany had it's eye on both countries for along time and used the Austro-hungary alliance as a reason to go to war. Wrong, wrong, wrong. You can't prove any of this and you have no evidence. Why? Because it's a lie. Your story runs completely counter to historical fact. This, again, is because it is a tissue of lies. Waffen SS waffen SS Waffen SS Your right it's all lies ,an elborate scheme made up by myself just to prove a piont. Hugo before you call me a lair read some of those web sites. reread your own sources.... Again when it comes to History you suck...

Black dog: AG, you need to take a look and see the logical inconsistencies in yiour argument. You say: QUOTE To answer your question again, i am very confident that the goverment of Canada would not ask me to intentionally commit the type of crimes that the Nazi did. Nor would they expect me to compromise any of my morals or values that i have as an adult raised in Canada. With that knowledge i serve Canada, and strongly believe that Canada will always be on the side of what is good. That is my motivation. Yet you also acknowledge the historical realities of Canadians being given official sanction to commit atrocities here: QUOTE even Canadian troops took little SS troops prisoners after they had excuted over 150 Canadian soldiers during D-Day No i never said they were given offical sanction. I said little SS prisoners were taken by Canadians after troops heard of the excutions during D-Day. I did not once indicate that Canadians kill any SS that were in the process of surrendering. ( I said little SS prisoners were taken by Canadians after troops heard of the excutions during D-Day.) They did not afford the enemy time to surrender, by bringing overwhelming firepower to bear in all situations...wiping them out before they had a chance to do anything.... Again i did not say they excuted any SS prisoners, what i did say is very few were taken prisoner, If you continuely press the enemy he does not have time to surrender. Until his postion is wiped out.through overwhelming firepower...SS prisoners were taken, that is a piont of history....Once a soldier indicates he wants to surrender then regardless he falls under the genva convention....and must be handled as a prisoner....

Black dog: There are none, slip of the finger,it was suppose to be 150 persons. sorry for the misunderstanding. However that does not say that those numbers that are reported missing even today were not killed or for that matter even dug up and disposed of else where. Why is it so hard for people to think that the serbs who killed thousands in Bosina would not do the same thing in Kosovo. digging them up hidding the evidance. early grave what does this imply then ... Yes. And I'm not saying it's a phenomenon limited to Germans, given the number of atrocities committed on a daily basis by military personnel. Those ROE's were not set incordance with the Genva convention. which clearly states that regardless of any orders given a soldier is responsiable for his actions if he carry's them out. Like i said before Canadian soldiers are taught what the genva convention is and what the ROE's are before entering an area of operations, if orders came down to wipe out a village or shot civilains it would be questioned at the highest level, and i'm certain that Canadian soldiers would not adhere to those orders.... Yes history is full of examples. but that does not prove that all soldiers are willing commiting these crimes all it proves is that some are or some countries are....And yes it is a matter of faith that i believe that Canadian troops in todays era would not willing kill women or children or carry out atrocities, like those that the Nazi did, it has to be a matter of faith as my life depends on other Canadian soldiers and thier actions..... The military spends alot money in training, to get a soldier to fire his wpn agains't an known enemy....But to kill a unarmed women or child i can not think of a circumstance that would convince me. which leads me to believe your the same. but i'm curious what that circumstance would be ?

Hugo: So what your saying in for a penny in for a pound, that they were going to fight aslong as Germany was capable of fighting. That Germany could not stop the war even if it wanted to.? I'm saying that Germany could have stop all the carnage any time it wanted to by simple pulling it's troops back to the orginal borders. That Germany and Germany alone has to take responsabilty for it's decision to attack France and belguim. But thier actions clearly show that the prize was worth the millions that had died. They wanted to conquor france and belgium and force it's will upon those people. And why in good god's name would have anyone allowed Hilter go unpunished for his deeds and allow the nazi's peace. Again what has that got to do with Germany attacking France and Belguim. It was not part of germany agreement with Austro-hungary. But clearly shows that Germany attacked with the objective of conquoring these two nations on top of helping Austro-hungary. So that excuses Germany for taking offensive operations on France and belguim. lets call a lemon a lemon shall we. Germany took it upon it self to attack those to countries. and used the Hustro-hungary agreement to borden the WAR. that drew alot more countries into it... NO, the fact remains that the WAFFEN SS was made up of several different types of units,which included Concentration gaurds, labour camp gaurds, etc,etc, that alot of these troops had commited terriable crimes again'st humanity...I'm not saying that all those Waffen SS troops were involved in those crimes just that alot were. and may not have had the same devotion to country and Hilter as they once did. Most if not all had testified that they themselfs were afraid for there own lives and being killed for not carry out any orders. (yes i am aware that not many were) however if you were part of an organization that killed thousands on a daily bases you would believe these threats as real. I do agree with you that alot of generals and allied commanders did praise those SS units for being elite, and legendary in the acts in combat. But in respect for that what chioce did they have. Most allieds did not take to many SS prisoners, Russian troops took no SS prisoners, even Canadian troops took little SS troops prisoners after they had excuted over 150 Canadian soldiers during D-Day...so as the thier motivation were did it lay..with themselfs and just trying to stay alive, or were they truely devoted to Hilter and the Reich as you say... To answer your question again, i am very confident that the goverment of Canada would not ask me to intentionally commit the type of crimes that the Nazi did. Nor would they expect me to compromise any of my morals or values that i have as an adult raised in Canada. With that knowledge i serve Canada, and strongly believe that Canada will always be on the side of what is good. That is my motivation.

Black dog: Oh and as for your claims about the percision of NATO airstrikes, I just came across this: The Kosovo cover up civ watch Serb media mistakes. The above links seem to paint another picture, again your only seeing one side of the story, Yes i agree with you some civilians did die as a result of the bombings. according to the links above some 500 individuals can be linked to NATO bombing mistakes, or accidents. The bottom link is in relation to your claims that NATO A/C attacked a civilian convoy, that the SERBS actually have cockpit conversation to prove thier claim. Highly unlikely as NATO takes great care and alot of monie pumped into equipment to ensure Radio transmissions are not picked up by anyone that is not intended to hear them....encrypted,freq hoping etc etc..all the serbs would have gotten is static.... legal aspects. I never said there weren't atrocities: quite the opposite. However, there's no evidence they were on the scale NATO said they were. Oh and two BBC articles you link to support my thesis that the major atrocities were spurred by the NATO air campaign: 120 dead is indeed a horrific tally, no question. It was indeed a war crime. However, it was not genocide. Military personal are not the only people that have a hand in war atrocties, civilians, goverment officals, So basical what your saying is that "all " military personal are evil. Whats that say about Canadian values and morals as Canada's military is made up of Average Canadians. The training we (Canadian soldiers ) have recieve todate strictly enforces the RULES of engagements, Soldiers are not allow to think outside the box when it comes down to these rules. Soldiers also recive extensive training before going on any operation these rules are gone over thousands of times until they are instinctive....those rules are taken from the Genva convention and Candian law... Candian soldiers also recieve extensive training on lawful orders and unlawful orders. they are taught to distinguish between the two, and what actions to take when given an unlawful order. I could not think of ANY circumstances that would exist today that could make a Canadian soldier to comit those acts that Nazi troops did. Do you think that YOU would be able to commit these crimes under any circumstances.

Black dog: dgpa-dgap.mil.ca/Transcr/2000Jun/00061201.htm TOPIC/SUJET: One year after the Kosovo conflict 3300 people remain missing AGENCY/AGENCE: CTV NEWSNET DATE-TIME/DATE-HEURE: 12 07h00 Jun 00 REFERENCE: 00061201 One year after the Kosovo conflict the Red Cross says more than 3300 people remain missing. Hundreds of bodies have been found in mass graves and between 60 and 80% of them have been identified. So your telling me this photo is false, your telling me that this team an RCMP team filed a false report. My Webpage and none of this happened as well. news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/674056.stm and you say they can not find the bodies. news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/inside_kosovo/pristina.stm My Webpage My Webpage There are more web sites avail but they contain very graphic pictures of the dead. and you already know my opion on that. however just those numbers alone add to more than 2000 dead. as you claim. UN res My piont is that if there was edvidance that any person that was providing info, or assistance to the enemy that interment would be a wise decision. i clearly stated that i did not agree with interment. It is one thing to go along with party lines, it is another to pull the trigger on an infant and still at the end of the day honestly believe it would make you a better person, or it was in the service of your country....There was a written and verbal penalty that refusing orders could result in death...was it followed in cases of refusing to kill civilians is another matter... why is that perhaps it suggest that it could not be enforced, even the HQ's knew it was not right to slaughter the innocent....Are you suggesting that all germanies troops knew what they may have to do in the way of killing innocent people and chalked it up to service for there country....and embraced it as all part of being a soldier....does not say much for the german people does it...that they are all stone hard killers.... Because , i am a Canadian soldier, and have worked with hundards of Canadian soldiers in places were commiting war crimes is common place and yet Canadian soldiers have remained professional, and always made the right decisions. I am postive that you could not convince a Canadian soldier to line up women and children and excute them like animals. Why is it so hard for you to accept that ....

Black dog: No, but the members of NATO are and can be charged with crimes if they can be proved. regardless of the country of orgin of the complianant... And i agree with you 100% , that because crimes are not proscuted does not mean they did not take place...But you have yet provided any proof that crimes did actually happen....All i said was that NATO did not intentional bomb civilian targets...not to sound cold but thier is going to be civilian cas in any conflict. you can not with 100% guarente hit what your shooting at. This conflict had already gone through all the diplomatic channels to get the Serbs from killing albanians and yet the refused....are you saying we should have left it at that and let the killing continue....Armed force was required to get them to final stop....who defends the rights of the albanians... Being morally responsable for those deaths has nothing to do with war crimes. and what choice did the serbs leave NATO.... Yes it was, but the KLA was not supported by NATO or KFOR troops that were on the ground after the air campaign. Yes i know what the Serb's claim ....all BS... Again BS, RCMP uncovered a mass grave of over 1500 persons that dated back some 3 months before the air campaign. that was an entire village and everyone in it....this find was one of the largest....Are you making excuses for the serbs and do you believe that it is alright for one side to ethic cleanse another.... So what you are saying that no one of those interned did not pass on info to the enemy, they were not sypathic to thier home country. and would not commit any crimes again'st Canada or her allieds. As you say just because thier is no edvidance did not mean it did not happen. For the record i do not agree with the goverment decision to intern them either. My piont is this, The Nazi party had complete control over all media, in doing so they had made the SS the unit to inspire to, the in thing to join...There was no mention of the slaughter of women and children in thier recruitment ads....just glory and honor on the battle field...they had no idea that they were going to be asked to commit crimes. I'm not backing away from any aurgument. but trying to show you orginally they did join for the same reason most soldiers do...however can you tell me that when forced with killing women and children their whole outlooked did not change. was it still the same country and party that they had been lead to believe..... This is true, there is not many cases that SS soldiers were excuted for not carring out orders... those that did refuse were sent away ASAP to not cause anymore of the same behavior. But let me ask you this, if a murder says he is going to kill you if you don't obey his every word, and you've seen him kill before would you not believe him...or would you be willing to call his bluff....Which brings me back to this if that soldier believed he would die for not commiting these crimes, does he stll believe in the cause, the Nazi party or is he doing it just to stay alive....That is the difference in a Canadian soldier, and a Nazi soldier...I'm not forced by order of death to do anything. and those that did ceased being soldiers and became murders with a uniform.

Crazy cunuck: I never once said that Germany had no fault in the war. Dont put words in my mouth. Of course they did. What does your above statement suggest. Nor did i state that Germany was solely responsable for WW I. the previous posts we were talking about Germany, and only Germany hence my statement, sorry for the confussion. No France did not have to go to war, but they are entitled to defend themselfs, let me ask you a question do you defend yourself if a thug is smacking you ? Are you to blame for someone else actions.... England had a defense pact with France, and they were being attacked by germany. Explain to me why Germany had to attack France and Belguim in the first place. To answer your question, NO one had to go to WAR. unless you want to give into those thugs and bend to thier will ,what right did Germany have to attack...france and belguim remember your the history buff and i know nothing. Actually me and Black dog already had this debate. arabs So as you can see be the mid 1920's british and french ottomen territory had been divided and the arabs looked after. How can you say they did nothing. You want to debate then fine debate, but leave this you don't know crap to someone else. so far the only person that has proven any lack of knowledge of the topic is you sir, I've given you sources and ref's if you had read all the posts. as for my argument that germany is reposnable for it's actions in WW I prove me wrong.

Hugo: Perhaps you can show me in History, other than 1916 where Germany was even interested in peace, Germany was not going to give-up any territory it had gained. Based on an actual comment or peace agreement that was offered. Germany had started offensive operations in central europe if the above conditions were such a major factor Why ? did they not sue for peace at that time. Or was it they were bent on capturing europe and defeating the allies, because they still had hope they could win... (As for germany suffering from "war guilt" as you claim perhaps they should have thought of that before invading Belgium. They were responsiable for WW I, they knew the risks before they attacked, Germany got what it deserved nothing more nothing less.) Let me rephase my orginal comment, we all know how WW I started, however Germany is responsable for it's actions it took during WW I. Show me how Austro- Hungary/ Germany defense agreement forced germany to attack France and Belguim.....Are you telling me that germany is not responsiable for deciding to attack these countries. WHY did Germany not have sued for peace at this time ? "likely to reach a peace agreement" Your opinion....History has proven you wrong.... Because German actions prove otherwise, putting thier troops on the western front to continue the WAR ....They knew the US troops were going to arrive shortly and it would prolong the WAR....WHY not sure for peace at this time ? because they knew there was still a chance to defeat the allies on the battle grounds they wanted it all....not peace but all there gains ....Again show me in history anything different....if you can't why should germany not be held responsable for thier part in WW I. Yes, i will agree with you but it is not the only problemn facing germany at the time. the below link will give you some more insitew to why the german people were ready to foolow Hilter and the Nazi party. fall of germany And yet who is the first people you phone when there is trouble ...let me guess the stooges of the state...as is the fire dept, ambulance ,hospital,. You've already stated on this forum that you personal will not use force to protect you or your family...but have also stated that it is alright for someone else to use deadly force...So i have to ask why the grief over police persons.... Next? How about first? You haven't addressed my point at all! You stated that Canadian forces pilots intentional bombed civilians and NON-military targets. you have not proven that they have , do you have a copy of all flight plans and target lists. NO you do not...if you did the world court would be very interested as so would i. what you are basing your comments on is a report from the Serbian goverment making claims it could not support in court....or the goverment of Canada and those pilots would be in court today...you and others on this board have a uncanny ability to piont your fingers and believe everything negative printed. if you put in as much effort in finding out the entire truth you have very little to complain about. The Waffen SS was also made up of concentration camp gaurds, forced labour forces. Why don't you atleast try and read the sites i gave Black dog, i have more if you would like.

Black dog: But how far did it make through the world courts system and why has Canada not been charged with war crimes. NATO did take care to ensure all targets were legimate. Above is my orginal question, WHY has Canada not been offically charged with war crimes, Why has the world court not pursued this? Your site on NATO's bombing blunders. did you actually read all those articles, there is no proof that NATO intentional targeted those sites,They are very unfortunate accidents or mistakes. You are forgetting that most of these Aircraft were engaged by Serbian air defense forces making bombing more difficult. I find it a bit ironic that serbia had the balls to charge anyone with WAR crimes, this coming from a country that would bomb and mortar it's own people and blame another to gain sympathy in the world press. Again unfortunate accidents happen in WAR and that is what they are unfortunate accidents not WAR crimes...the ethic cleanising of Albanians by Serbian troops was a WAR crime. As for your claim on DU ammuntions Canada does not use DU wpns or muntions. The link i provided you shows pictures of RCMP members and forenstic personal working in a mass grave of which was a small one just over 300 old men,women, and children....killed by the serbain army...something else they claimed never happened...it was the reason NATO bombed in the first place. they continued thier cleansing up until Serbia sued for peace... Dresden,berlin,etc etc happened when during WW II, my orginal claim was after WW II. That being said, regardless of who started the bombing of civilian centers they were terrorist attacks we have covered this already. and i agree those that had ordered these attacks should have been tried as War crimals. As for you comment on other war crimes can you elborate, the excution of POW's i'm not aware of this, i do know of the unoffical order not to take any SS prisoners, after the excution of Canadian soldiers during D-Day. The interment of Japanese, and German Canadians was an attempt by all the allieds to control those that were actually working for the enemy. right idea, wrong excution. This practice continued through most of the war, but in the end, from 1944 onwards facing manpower shortages, Waffen-SS units received conscript replacements drawn from disbanded Luftwaffe or Navy units or labour battalions. While these were conscripts and often lacked any (An army unit consisting of soldiers who fight on foot) infantry training before being thrown into combat, some SS units exhibited very high morale and comradeship until the very end of the war Waffen SS waffen ss Both these links prove that waffen SS were not only part of the elite fighting formations but also in fact part of the Concentration camps system, forced labour BNs ETC ETC.. The Waffen SS was also made up of concentration camp gaurds, forced labour forces, can you honestly sit there and tell me that someone could shoot hundreds of jews in one day and believe it was right , believe it was for the betterment of his country, is that why they had such a high turn over rate....because they had high moral.... There is no doubt that when they first enlisted that there belief that they were jioning an elite unit was true and that they did have an unwavering belief in hilter and the NAZI party. take that same soldier tell him that it is his duty now to take part in the masacre of women and children at the end of the day do you think he is still has the same unwavering belief, or is he now surrending to his fears that he himself could be killed for not performing his duty....