Army Guy

Black dog: And in a court of law where would that get you....the evidence has failed to prove "without a shadow of a dought" that NO WMD where in IRAQ prior to invasion... There are areas in your evidance where you must take a leap of faith...and yes it makes sense to do so by many individuals, this is not a case of "was Bush right" it's a case that of what happened to these wpns...and if they are not destroyed who has them right now.... thats what scares me.... I really hope your right...i don't think my thinking is that tainted...with x 6 tours into places like Rwanda, Bosina, Afgan, 1 st Gulf war. i think i may have a basic idea on how these guys think....don't get me wrong i'm no expert...but it has givening me the basics...

Flea bag: The UN is a toothless beast run by third world wanna bes, while they sit and debate in there air conditioned forums....transgressions as you call them such as Rwanda, somolia, Bosina, and many many more went on killing thousands ...there are sometimes when a Nation must standup save the lives regardless of international laws...when it's done the UN can debate whether it was wrong or not.... But at least that nation can say it did the right thing.... Lets throw this into your senario, while you have been debating whether or not to put this fence because it's free, and your moral valves don't or won't allow you to have anything to do with the bikers....and your to cheap to put up your own fence up..... your 3 year old son is shot dead in your front yard....is your moral valuves worth all that... How could you not possiable want it....since our majic wand is in the shop we can not change who are niebours are,or what they do....but we can take some steps to prepare ourselfs for what may happen...

Black dog: We did alot of this type of thing with conventional wpns in Bosina, with many of the different factions, muslims, croat's, serbs, they would all claim they had destroyed wpns and munitions and we'd find them a week later stashed away in some warehouse...... what makes Sadam any different ....all the evidance reveals that he compliled 110 % with the coalition. he destroyed everything he had...to comply and to have sanctions lifted....that done all he has to do is what ... Wait for the inspectors to come give him a clean bill and poof his country and lives are back to normal.... As per the coalitions demands...so why does he make it so hard on the inspectors...why does he try and block the only thing standing between military action or normalcy for his country. Are these actions of a man trying to comply with demands or are these actions of a man who is trying to hide something.... eureka: If i have offended anyone with my remarks to Ceasar then i appolgise. they were childish as was his remarks to me in on a different post. It is not my intentions to rehash the entire event , but to state that the evidance is not black and white... There are no clear and absolute proof that x number of munitions were produced by Iraq and x amount were destroyed by Iraq and x amount were verified to have been destroyed by the ISG. With that said are we to trust the Iraqis when they say they destroyed it all or the ISG when they say we can't find any ....like playing hide and seek and when you can't find a kid...he did'nt exist because we can't find him..... As for the links to terror, your telling me that there is no AL Quiada in Iraq today....

Black dog: Like i said i can not prove it...but the ISG were not there to witness each and every bomb or shell destroyed ....alot of this destruction was done by Iraq it self...and then verified by ISG at a later date...don't let the kids watch the candy store.

Black dog: Not if the balance of power shifted and those now in power told the US to Back down.... Lets say the US does mange to find the sub, or land station that fired the one or few missles....after detonation....that those countries surrounding the N Korea would not be on the phone telling the president that we can not allow you to strike back with nuk wpns due to fact we can not sustain the damage on our side of the border...and a launch would be consider an act of war... Im "hoping" that the US would agree an inform them that the US would use conventional means to punish who ever.... Not if other nations are going to suffer as well....you don't think a huge radiation cloud would ....one that could kill thousands of your own countrymen would be worth a response of some sort...other than hey nice shot Why any of these states would ally themselves (posthumously) with a rouge regime is also a mystery to me. you mean China and N.korea... He has already threaten war with the US ...the N korean border is at the highest state of alert in the world...is that a sign of a stable man..if the US was to show any of those countries a sign of weakness they would take advantage of it....and it does not have to be N korea....

Black dog: It's a good read, but i come away with a different opinion Sadam knows that Chemical wpns is a major deterence a major trump card...one that i think he would have held close to him...but like i said i can not prove it...it is my opinion that Sadam or his sons..knows of the existance of Iraq's chemical wpns...and they are not saying much well he is not saying much.....i also believe that Sadam thinks he can attain power again ....and in the current conditions that might be possiable if the americans were to pull out...

Caesar: You cease to amass me, getting-up from your lazy boy chair to slam me must be one of todays highlights. you seem to be pretty good at making false statements, but fail to respond when your asked to produce the truth.I'm refering to our last post. It's funny because everything i've read said that there was none found period...not that there were none in Iraq or none existed .. Yes, on again off again, only certain sites ...after threats of military action... How so by expelling some of them ...or was it when they lives were threatened....or when then said you can search this site but not this one.... Give me a break, today there is plenty of AL Qaida in Iraq....that new Shak that is leading the unrest south of Bagdad is reported to have connections with Al Qaida... Pakistan is allied to the US only because of what the US pays it....that is not an allied its a resource... Again thanks for keeping -up with current events ...the Afgan goverment just took over power of it's countrymen...and the country is still full of terrorists ones that are very good at hiding....of course 25 years of combat will do that....

Black dog: So why did he risk going to war over not allowing inspectors into all areas of Iraq....if he had nothing to hide, was it Pride or stupidity,...Why starve his people if he knew he had nothing to hide....why not allow them access to everything then be done with it after they left begin all over again....be allow to sell your oil and reak the profits...with the US troops gone home ....

Black dog: The detonation of just one large nuclear warhead on any large US city would be a serious blow to the US....it would take most if not all thier resources to look after the aftermath of such an attack.... maybe to the piont it would alter the balance of power..for example if the US had to pull in alot of it's troops in foreign nations to deal with the after math it would alter the balance of power in those specific areas...If there was enough of these areas were effected it would level the playing field...IE US would not be the big kid on the block any longer....and hostile nations may take advantage of that....I'm not saying that N Korea would not get what is due her...I'm saying that the balance of the world would have changed and it leaves alot of what if's.....So whats in it for them "everything".... I think you answer your own question here Why the US would not attack N.Korea with a Nuk strike....MAD Sadam is not the only Dictator capable of miscalculating, And YES i agree with you it would be hard to calculate what the US would do if attacked by a single or few nuk wpns....but by having the BMD there protecting them they would not have to worry about a nuk detonation on US soil...and could begin arrangements for conventional warfare ASAP to punish those responsable.

Black dog: And because the Iraqi people are not smart enough we should take the word of the above agencies that there was none....Look i believe that Sadam does have some WMD tuck away is some corner..can i prove it no ...can you prove me wrong no...we both have read the evidence (thank you for the sites by the way) ....and i'm still not convinced that a Man like Sadam would give away a powerful trump card like WMD...

Black dog: Thats not what i said ....I said the US could not just attack Korea with a nuclear strike without severly effecting the surounding nations... Do you really think that China or russia would stand by when millions of acres of land become unusable, that water supplies became unuseable,that millions would be poisoned with radition, those what did not die would be effected for generations to come... what response do they have.... thank you may i have another.... I think we are all underestamating what a standard 100 mega ton warhead can do....it's devastion is truely unthinkable....you don't need thousands to eliment the US as Russia has ...you don't need hundreds ....maybe 20 or 30 would put the US back into the stone ages along with the rest of us.... So why did Sadam cross the line so many times.... Flea bag: ICBM's are not limited to land based launch systems ...as you pionted out in your article they have subs that are capable of closing in to within the the 2500 km raduis. i also might add that so does India and Pakastan have sub cabability......for the right price anyone can buy an EX Russian sub,plane,tank,munitions..

Black dog: Could it have been possiable for Sadam and his merry crew to bury thier wpns? And could it have been possiable to move them into another country ? If the answer is yes, then there is a possiability that Sadam did gave WMD...Until the Iraq is dug up or new tech presents it self that would enable the US to find these WMD then there is always going to be that question of uncertainity.... By giving-up throwing up our hands and saying we did'nt find any WMD that the US lied to us about everything...We should return Sadam to power appoligize to the Iraqi people...

Black dog: No, it was in answer to Flea bags remarks that if North Korea was to launch against the US... There is a big difference, an exchange between the Soviets would be on mass....no winners or lossers for that matter, it would kill the world as we know it.... N.Korea knows that, it's borders are to close to any of the nations i mentioned and radiation cannot be contained and would require some sort of response from the effected nations....knowing that korea would have its revenge from the grave....that would leave the US military only one logical solution to rely on conventional warfare to punish korea or any other nation that tried it....

Fleabag: I think the piont is that if any nuclear wpns detonate in the USA ..that Canada will definetly be effected either by blast waves,or radition clouds....But yes we will die a slow death with a smile on our faces as we were right....we made the right choices.... Fall from what if the missle is intercepted it will be brought down without detonation"NO FALL OUT" just some mess on the ground to clean- up and the wpns grade plutonim scooped up and disposed of... Gwynne Dyer is a very good military scholar, but a military genius give me a break...Do you really think that china or Russia, India or Pakistan are going to sit by and swallow a mega Radiation cloud, so that the US can wipe out Korea in one strike....just to save face..there is only one viable option that is to use conventional warfare to strike back.. That would scare them pissing off the UN, ....but you are right the situation is not realistic from the amount of info that we are privey to....BMD is meant as an added insurance measure to ensure it does not happen....for what ever reason... I think that this whole BMD thing was handled wrong from the start...our goverment should have taken the time to reseach it then to educate us all on the pros and cons...instead out present goverment has relied on polls to make decisions for us... thats not leadership thats someone trying to secure their job.

Argus: What does the tooth to tail got to do with todays CAF,( I can't believe i'm about to defend those support wieners.) Everyone that deploys on todays operations are making great sacrafices for there country. Yes there are those support guys in NDHQ who have not done a tour but they are far and few between in todays Military,I think there is a big misunderstanding about current military operations....the support guys are in the same combat zone as the combat arms personal...everyone is facing the same enemy....Regardless of your job or function. Hey I'm not going to lie to you there are lots of office jobs out there Staff work must get done to allow the military to run....But i will ensure you there are alot more field postings out there than you think there is. . within the Navy ,Army, even the airforce are deploying now... I'd be just curious to know what you consider a sacrafice..Do they have to give their lives to fit into your catagories,or suffer injuries be it mental or physical..

Black dog: So you would feel comfortable wearing a t-shirt with an american flag on it down town in pakistan......perhaps buddy, buddy would be to strong a word for that comparison...they co-operate because of favours exchanged.... Are you serious, what ever happened to planting the explosives IED for example...car bombs by remote...you telling me that they are not smart enough to engage thier enemy without strapping explosives on... Have you ever listened to any of these shaks surmons...it is a learned thing...they learn it in thier religous cermonies,at school,at home, from TV, from thier peers.... So you agree that there are those that have been charged....oh by the way you have to get caught to get charged... again you are saying that this is common practice to target civilians and yet to provide any proof.. The US with good reason.... How did they do that... That is not the reason why, the US and the coalition which include Egypt...agreed to eject Sadam from Kuwait that was it... the muslims in the coalition did not want US or any other foreign country in Iraq at the time. The rest of the world did not want the US to enter Iraq either which included most of europe....the US did not stop the massacre because the UN did not let them they were still debating the idea........ Are you saying the US put sadam in charge...or for that matter Hilter, or stalin or what the leaders in Iran,jorden, any of those Stan countries.... No they did not ....i like to see a link on that....it might be a different story in central america....but you don't prop up a state that is openly hostile to your nation do you.... your right it does... some scared shitless pte is making those life and death decisions on the battle field and we are sitting here faulting him for it... while it is his efforts and blood that make the changes that are needed in this world....but don't worry we will forget about his deeds soon enough....

Trail and error: Canada is as much as a target as the US virtully by being next to it...A thermal nuclear wpn exploding even in calgary or edmonton would effect most of the northern half of the states with radition...a blast in toronto could effect the top two thirds of the US...not only from radition but blast effects as well...Any nuclear dentonation in North America would be bad....I personal do not think Canada could function in any mode after such an attack... Canada has full control of Norad when it's senior officer is on duty ...meaning they have certain control over the US nuclear arsenal....do you not think or trust a Canadain military member to do what was right... Effected in what way... the missle would be destroyed, all that would be left is the nuclear fuel, and some rocket parts...easily gathered up and disposed of... No i don't know what you mean....are you saying we are good because we have not done anything on the world stage...except to slam the US every chance we get...By not taking our world responsibilites seriously...by not taking our own defense seriously...by debating in the UN for months while thousands die...to agree that the war in Iraq was wrong, and allowing him to continue to kill thousands at his will regardless of reasons....if you get my drift... What threats has he made...about violating our air space to save millions of lives ....But we as Canadians want to stand around the smoking hole and say...god did we do that... This is not about bullies it is about protecting ourselfs...who cares if it does not get used,who cares if it has to use our airspace to work, it is an insurance policy just in case....do some research on the security of Russias current WMD arsenal and you'll see why i'm concerned...it is only a matter of time before someone gets ahold of one.... A 100 mega ton detonation would send a blast raduis well over 300 kms....and a radition cloud over most the country....is this what we want because we are quibling over airspace...Canada has a nation would cease....the casualities would be in the millions no western country has the medical or emergancy plan to cope with an accident of this nature... Just burying the dead would over whelm us...let alone the clean-up... Because i don't hate bush i have a problem...because i'm for a defensive weapon that could save millions of lifes...i've got a problem....or is it because i'm not a follower of your ideas that i've got a problem....you told me at the start i have not convinced you of having the BMD...you Sir have not convince me of anything other than disputing some of my reasons for BMD...convince me...

Black dog: Lets compare them with and where would you plan your holidays.... Azerbaijan,Kazakhstan,turmenstan,uzbekistan,hell anything with stan on the end including pakistan...all have worse human right records than Egypt , or Saudi not to mention Syria, Iran,yemen,Jorden,Omen. QUOTE In most cases it does not make any difference....except when you mix in religion ie the mulsim faith ...or revenge as a cause...these make it a whole new ball game...enough to make them strap on plastic explosives and kill your self for the cause... Ask a Canadian soldier to strap on explosives and to dentonate himself in a crowd of his enemies....and what will your answer be.... we continuly see the results when we ask a muslim to do the same act...it is not a random act it is a daily occurance in Iraq or palistine , or Isreal etc etc.... Talking and beating ones chest is one thing soldiers do that alot...doing the act is another....and it is against the geneva convention and is punishable war crime... perhaps you can explain that to a british SAS trooper who is being charged with Murder,over a shotting of a civilain Iraqi...the is also the US marine who is also charged with murder for shooting a wounded Iraqi insurgent....there are many more available on the US armed forces web sites also the british armed forces web site or any news paper most have carried lots of articles... Dead is dead i know...but you are putting all the blame on the US soldiers ....who have no choice or say on any matters. but who are we going to blame right.... Your right we should all go to our corners and mind our own business...let the Hilters,Stalins,Sadams,Kadafi's, and the many others reak havoc where ever they want....to slaughter whom ever they want for what ever reasons....to live our lives in fear not knowing if we are next.... Yes, this is a war zone...not down town Victoria....people are going to die...innocent or not...an accident is just that an unplanned incident...you kill someone in a uncontrolable car accident does that mean you should be charge with murder... Soldiers go to war when politions fail to solve thier problem like adults...War is not the fault of those that do the fighting but thier leaders. Blame them....

Anticlimates: This is not about the world it is about the USA, and the 3000 of thier country men how perished in a single day...something that has not happen since WWII...it is a major moment in thier history...you've chosen a poor example to bash bush.... Say's who ? you....your just one person with a hard on for the bush adminstration....or the next one or the next one...you need to get a life....instead of runnig around the niebourhood in your underwear shouting the US is coming to get me...there in my mind ....help me...

Black dog: Those two contries we were talking about , are light years ahead of the other middle east countries and are still making progress, then the process is working...it is an extreme slow one....if you understood people then change has to be made slowly...you don't undo 5000 years of history over night... Soldiers who wear uniforms and form a part of an army of a country that has signed the geneva convention,are bound to follow the convention or be punished with commiting war crimes....not wearing a uniform makes you a civilian or non combative person...unless you arm your self or are seen helping the bad guys ......if your seen to have picked up a wpn then drop it your still a combative an by law can be targeted by your enemy... That said soldiers are only allowed to target military targets...churchs ,musems,etc are non targets ...unless the enemy is using said building to hide or engage you from...then they can be fired upon,until the enemy is dislodged...there are many more laws that guide a soldier through combat... that is the difference between a soldier and a terrorist...terrorists did not sign the convention and regularly target civilian targets to creat fear and terror within the population so that they will put presure on thier goverment s to comply with the terrorist demands... Ultimately, someone like Charles Graner or the American sniper who (allegedly) picked off an entire family in Fallujah while they were under a flag of truce is on the same moral plane than a sucide bomber. So you're saying that no Iraqi civilians have died at the hands of American troops? Or that it happens, but only occassionally and by accident?

I am not going to defend either for their human rights records....but you can't tell me that Sadam and his regime are the same monsters... Key word here is "Job"....Yes that job entails that they may have to kill or be killed....but remember it's a job... you can not compare the motivation of a Muslim bomber to a Canadian Soldier in regards to dieing for a cause or believe... your not going to get a Canadian soldier to strap on 50 lbs of C-4 and detonate in a crowd.... Your comment has left me speechless...what can i say...if this is what you think is happening over there then it is your opinon ...an uneducated one... but yours...

Black dog: In regards to thier common laws..true as most are taken from thier Koran or bible....whipping,cutting off of hands are all in thier common laws... The Gassing of kurds happened between the Gulf wars, the disappearance of thousands happen before,during and after the gulf war... The hundreds of public excutions that happened in Afgan were a dialy event,held in a sports arenas for all to veiw.... it is these acts that is not happening in Suadi, or Egypt... I agree with you...and there is presure being brought to bear in getting them to improve the human rights record...and it will take some time.... Give me a break...Canada has a military force of 53,000 out of 32 million people...besides most join the military for the adventure, the idea that it is cool to go to war...it is after that all veterns who have experiance war will tell you it is "HELL" for the lack of a better description. Muslims reason are religous and are based on hate...

Caesar: You have painted them all with the same Brush. This is your quote below is it not......you've based your opinon on one individuals service record that are over 10 years old now... I glad that you keep-up with current affairs especially when it comes to our service men and women, I think they would be more than thrilled to hear your opinions from you... That is why there are more Canadian Armed Forces persons killed every year in the line of duty than all of police forces in Canada combined....Again thank-you for keeping-up with current affairs. "Chest beating" if that is what you call a few military members trying to figure out whether to quit or not because they do not figure it is worth it any more than sure....again you are entitled to your opinion...and we have already seen how you form your opinions... Your right i and many like me did chose to serve our country, and we excepted that in doing so that there would be many times our lives would be in danger.... But we also expected our country to provide us all the tools to do the job, affording us the maxium safety possiable...and they are not doing that, they are not living up to their end of the deal....so if thats what you call whinning then yes i'm guilty along with 53,000 other military members....... But it's easy to judge others from your lazy boy chair,form a few opinons from next to no information...then belch out how things should work in your world....I sir, work and train in the real world every day....and before you judge me or any other DND Member do some research.

Black dog: Your right, I've been to both countries and thier human rights can not compare to Canada's...that being said they are light years ahead of of most middle east countries...and they don't gas they own people with chemical agents, nor excute them by the hundreds. Thats not what i said, i said that most male muslims would gladly give thier lives for thier religion or cause. It is a sweeping statement, they believe that to die fighting thier enemies is a sure way to get into heaven... I'm not going to say they do not act in thier national interest, i'm sure every country has an agenda including Canada...and if that nation was forced to be the world's policemen i would say it was a benifit of the job..... to compare Russia's and China with the US is just a bit unfair....considering that Russia and China's whole objective was to spread communism around the globe through direct military action and regardless of cost...

Caesar: Are you suggesting that todays Canadian soldier is not sacraficing anything for thier country.... May i ask what you do for a living,and what sacrafice you have made that allows you to condemn those that serve Canada today.