Army Guy

I'd be happy with a 25 years sentence with no parole ....meaning 25 years with no parole....

What if that info saves lives, maybe Canadian lives in a foreign country.....what then...and where do you draw the line is Canada responsable for the actions of a another country.

Your right Michael, this post should have been reserved as a PM, and i should not of made it out to be about one of our newest members. But rather paying respects to Mr Flaherty.

I get the fact that we are not to feed the trolls, and i will apologize to the rest of the regular readers on this forum in advance, but the lack of respect from this guy has struck a cord......... you sir are a Limp DICK....Yes i could have used another colorful word to discribe you, but i'll stick with Limp DICK as it seems to discribe you and your cheerful attitude to a T..... Nobody on this forum has lionize Mr Flaherty to the piont of Sainthood, what they have done is instead commented on some of his highlights, we hairless apes do that when someone passes. It's out of respect for the man and his greiving family....And while he may not of been the best he was far from the worst, and i know i can hardly wait to hear your next poem , when you discribe them... So Limp Dick i want to thank you for setting the bar so high on your first couple of posts, but then again that is what arm chair critics do, sip lemonade from a sippy cup while sitting in their reclining chair all from the basement of their mothers home.....and comment on things, or people who had the courage to serve their country in some form or other. Well enough time spent on some hairless ape with nothing but disdain for everything and everyone. Good day limp dick.

They may have different rules, morals and values, but they are still held accountable for their actions under the conventions and inter national law....we could argue this for weeks, but the fact remains there are rules for everyone, do the follow them is another question. The fact that Afgha pres has already told these firms to get out is a sign of their future.....in afghan atleast.

Well the title of the OP is the Canadian Afghanistan expedition, And while alot of your opinion is global and while it does have a small reflection on how the Canadian mission went it was not the main topic of debate....Most of the posters here have said that the Canadian side of the mission is a failure, a waste of time ,blood and funding. That nothing was accomplished , and what was , did not go far enough. the foundation and framing as you put it was as good as one could get. When you put into context with the countries history, and political , and tribal make up. lets not forget that the Afghan people voted in the man they have now, he was not installed by NATO or the US government as most on this board have said....That in Afghanistan was a huge victory considering the make up of it's political system, and players...It gave back to the Afghanistan people the vote....a powerful thing if you have not had one in over 30 years. Many other projects were started to improve education, infra structure to improve trade, basic services that we take for granted, such as power, heat, lights, sewage, farming canels for water to grow crops....the country had been savaged by 30 plus years of war....it had nothing....it was Canada back in the 1700's....and while it is far from our standards here in Canada today, there has been massive improvements....How that can be a failure is beyond me.....But then again today Canada is a fast food people they want everything in 5 mins or less or it is a waste of time.....Afghanistan has it's own time table, and you can't change that. Do i agree that there was to few troops and resources deployed, NO,the Military did everything it could to maintain the small force we could deply....... Did Canada do everything it could no it did not, nor will it ever do as much as we can, in fact every nation wants to cash out on peace dividends military power is not a primary issue..... at our hieght there was over 3600 CDN troops on operations, plus limited UN and other NATO taskings.....Nobody was left during 2002, 2008.....you we either training to go on operations or on operations....and rarely did we complain, and when some did they were told by Canadians to shut the F up....we don't pay you to complain....a week ago we had a dress uniform inspection with medals, i was looking around, i have 3 tours in Afghan, each tougher than the next, but i seen guys with 4,5,6,7,8 tours, not sure if Canadians relieze the sacrafice it means just in the family sense, you spend a full year training then cbt for 6 to 7 months,and if you were lucky then 6 months to repair your family dynamics, then start it all over again if you were not lucky well once you got back you started training once again to enter the cycle.... To me this said alot of things, our commitment to our country, unit, and our jobs.....that family always placed a second place....and that while our government was aware of the problem of burning out it's soldiers, it was unwilling to spend the funding to increase our size, nor was it willing to equip us with the equipment we really needed nor where they willing to decrease the size of our commitment......and while i piont the finger at the government , the Canadian people do not have the will to spend money on it's military either.... This is not just a Canadian problem it was all through NATO, uncluding the US, which as large as their military is was having the same problems it's soldiers were doing multi tours and were facing fatige.... There are alot of things that made the war drag on, but i think the biggest one was the lack of support from the people....had the support ben there then the resources would have flowed in non stop, Again not only a Canadian issue but globally, nobody had the time to complete afghanistan in the way everyone evisioned it.. I've said this a thousand times, and we all piont to the US , and their 2 wars going on at the same time.....that is bullshit....If the people wanted this war finished then ALL of NATO could have stepped up with men, machines, and funding and turned this around....But they did not.....we can piont our fingers at the government but they do not do anything with out our approval.....if they want to get re elected.... You say the benifits do not out wiegh the costs, well that would depend on what price you pay for freedom, the ability to vote and chose your government, the price of education, establishing trade, what costs are you will to put to those values....we take for granted in this country the ability to chose our jobs, how we provide for our family,what we provide our family with, what price do we put on these values....Canada made a commitment to Afghanistan, and we broke that commitment, because we got tired of paying the price....but what is the price....

Yes it is true some Canadian soldiers have gone over to the private sector,and yes they are paid very well, but one also needs to have some serious skills and most soldiers do not have them....And those that do have them are not really interested in working for companies like black water or the others.....when you compare the amount that served over in Afghan as volunteers with the smaller pay check you'll see the private sector really did not have much of an effect on regular force numbers....Having a larger pay check is nice.... everyone is human....but money was not a huge issue for those that served....there were other factors as well... As for them staying and taking over the security work, maybe for a while but why pay a western merc all that and a bag of chips when you can hire a small army of locals to do the same thing for a fraction of the cost.

There are alot of reasons, Gen Leslie had alot of extra responsabilites one of them was to entertain at his home, even work for from home at times with his staff. his last home was probably chosen for these factors, now that he is retired he will not be expected to host parties get togethers , entertain foreign military members etc etc the list goes on. This is very common from the rank of LCol and above. It should also be noted that a large portion of these extra expences are out of their pockets. With retirement , he no longer needs room for all these things, and downsized or found a home with a better lay out. This made the Media because of his high profile, but this happens all the time in the forces, OK not with million dollar homes. but i don't think it is immoral....

A great acticle that lays both sides of the story out and allows the reader to decide "was it worth it"..... http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vol14/no1/page19-eng.asp I can't speak for anyone else but me, the whole Afghanistan experience was worth it, and i think our Nations involvment has paid dividends to both nations. As for other soldiers, well i say that their actions speak volumes, most have multi tours, each one they had to stick their hands up and say YES i'll go over once again. these soldiers are not combat junkies, most have families of their own, with much to lose, including their lives. they are Canadian citizens just like the rest of us, to bad their word is fallen on deaf ears. We may have not created the garden of eden over there, but we did leave it in much better condition then when we arrived.

How did we punch above our weight ?

Well like i said majority rules, according to the link below it suggests that a whopping 74% approved the Canada sending troops. And like i said before "YOU" may be in that 26 % that either had no say, or did not want to send troops....But what did you do about it....nothing i bet.... At the end of 2001, a poll quoted by the Washington Post showed that 74% of Canadians supported the US-led war in Afghanistan.[56] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada's_role_in_the_Afghanistan_War You made my piont for me in regards to the F-35...I said the government and DND really wanted this A/C...So my question to you is why is it not sitting on some Canadian airfield right now or why is there no Canadian production....because of the presure from the Canadian public.....You can't have it both ways, can't just decide "DND" your not getting that because it is a waste of my tax dollars....and then say we have no vioce you can't blame me for not having the right equipment.....Your voice is being heard.... You say the government will do what ever it wants....well explain to me why the F-35 program is not going any wheres....and forget what is wrong with the plane, concentrate on why the government does not have this plane right now ?....because it wants it bad.... Police are not to be trusted, some soldiers are hot heads, so lets paint them with one brush...

You seem to forget we live in a democracy and majority rules, we either live with that decision or we can try and change it. So in the begining a majority of Canadians were all for this mission. So in we went.... We were humping the mountains searching for bad guys under US forces using US assets...everything was golden...except for the fact we had green combats.... All that being said the mission changes, we deploy into Kabul, we start using open air jeeps, shit goes south...I agree with you the chain of command shares some of the burden with how we are equiped..... But you say how can Canadian citizens change this they have no power, well one universty prof in Ottawa said the same thing about our POW policies and aledged abuses....remember that, one man got the government not only to look into it, but also launched an investagation into the whole problem....that was one man...there are other examples as well, of ordinary Canadians making changes...It is the system we live with.... Public opinion holds alot of weight in this country, i used the F-35 program as a good example of this, Can you say with 100 % certainity that public opinion is not what is holding our military from getting this plane....Airforce have a hard on for this plane so does the current government and they would take it as is right now...yet they have been presured to relook at the whole program ..where did that presure come from ? And perhaps you misunderstood me we did not need the F-35 in Afghan, i was using it as an example of the peoples voice and how powerful it is... Thats is the power of the people, that is their voice....and it is being heard by government in fact they don't do very much with out it....they check it for everything they do, as they know it is your vote that keeps them in office... The people of this country have been using their power since the first government formed in this country nothing has changed....Budgets are made up in government i get that but if the people wanted to grow or shrienk our military their voices would be heard, if not 4 years later there would be a change of government.....if it was the wish of the people to spend more on our military, it would happen... Look my biggest piont here is the Canadian people have been given the right to make changes in anything they want...saying anything less is not true.....i get it sometimes we all feel like our voice is not being heard.....we feel lost in the crowd....but there are examples of people doing it....and it is working...the key word is "want" to do it.... My second piont is it is the Canadian citizens responsability to have all our soldiers,policmen, fire fighters backs....they have signed on to unlimited liabilty, meaning they have to risk their lives on our behalf....we can't sit by and say they knew what they signed on for, tough shit here is a bucket of water, save my house, i pay taxes.......because in the end we need these people to do those things they do....and if the Citizen say screw you we are paying you...well i can make more money as a garbage truck driver...i do what i do because i like it, and love this country...but if there is no support many will change their minds about doing those jobs, seeing it as a one way street, sacrafice on their part, nothing on the tax payers side except a few dollars...

Not just equipment, but on the whole conflict....question how long would have Canada stayed in the conflict if the masses were in Ottawa protesting or for that matter telling the government to equip us for the job.....with out the support of the people funding dries up for everything....nobody gave a crap...

Yes lets throw some numbers around, 20,000 civilains killed by Canadian troops alone, i mean that is who we are talking about right....our mission to Afghanistan, maybe a source is needed for that one.... You can't use some corporate formula to calculate sucess or failure of a military mission...was WWII a sucess, ..nor can you calculate the cost in lives lost.... Every action over tha last few years is pushing the nation backwards is bullshit...do some research, how many new bussiness were open, how many schools were built and filled with students, when was the last public exicution....when we first arrive in Kabul, the place was in ruins, no water, no power, no paved roads, no vendors , no bussiness, today, the oposite is true, intra net cafe's are every where....construction is every where. paved roads are the norm, bussiness is thriving... "Members of the Canadian military are just like all other loyal Canadians but they have chosen a career in the military with its inherent advantages and dangers. I believe that the average soldier did what he/she was expected to do and did it well. That is their job." And the job of it's citizens are to ensure they have everything they need to accomplish that task....how many soldiers do you think would sign up to give their lives, if the citizens did not give a crap....their job is to hold our government accountable.... There is no such thing as a "military mission only". That would be like saying that fire fighters going into a burning building are in a "firefighters mission only" or police officers chasing gang bangers as a "policemen mission only". Soldiers, firefighters and policemen know exactly what they are getting into when they join their particular force. They are paid by Canadian taxpayers and supported and equipped by Canadian tax dollars. I believe Canadians have every right to evaluate the use of their resources. There is in this case....Show me how this is not a Military mission only.....show me the support we recieved during the mission......Most Canadians did not give a flying F*** about Afghanistan, they had moved on.....Nor did they give a sweet shit about their military....I mean how many times did the media tell Canadians that IED's were killing more Canmadians than anything else....and when the numbers of cas became to great, and people started to voice their opinions we leased x 6 CH-47D off the Americans our cas rate went down almost 75 %.....but that did not happen to 2009, some 6 years after the start up.... So when the public decided it did not give a shit, we took it over because for us it was everything.........Hence a Military mission only.... you said it they are paid and supported and equiped by Canadian tax payers then they must be held accountable if they drop the ball right..........or do you pay your 20 bucks a year so you don't have to hear anything else about the problem of Afghanistan...

Your right , our current day freedoms are our primary function as soldiers.. but this is a two way street, soldiers do the fighting and back home the citizens have our backs.....and before we atart pionting the fingers, we must know the facts....sometimes tha facts are not what we want to hear...

They have no presence in Afghanistan, they are based in Pakistan , and have influence in Afghan. there is a big difference. I do blame them for their share, but it is the Canadian people that make change in this country, It is the Canadian people who have the responsability to have our backs......So the majority of our equipment problems are yours...every Canadian citizen....a good example of that would be the F-35 program, we'd already have that Aircraft if it were not for public opinion....you can't have it both ways..... No the gaol was to destroy their presence in Afghanistan.....if that was the case we have ground forces in Pakistan.... You can try to eradicate an idea....i don't know how many military books mention this...you can not kill it with out wipeing out everyone with knowledge of it....that would have went over well in the media.... That is a myth that wea are fighting the same terrorist as the US created for Russia....do some more research.... Afghanistan has for the most part always been SHIA law, but they took it to the extreme, hence the problem... Well welcome to democracy, were the majority rule....each Canadian does not get to chose where our tax dollars get spent.....Just like i don't get to chose what war DND is going to engage with.....Back to reality.... It's not that i want to pin it on them, I do pin it on them just so we are clear.... Canada got all hot and horny about beating the shit out of a bunch of goat herders, so off we went....they loss interest shortly afterwards and forgot we even had troops over there....except when one of us came home in a bag....or you wanted answers about some aligation.....with no interest, just how easy would you think it would be to get equipment.....Canadian soldiers have an unwritten code that we will defend this nation, without concern over our own lifes so you and your family does not have to....., but it is the Canadian citizen who ensures we have what is needed for us to do that job.....and like us you don't have a say in which war you want to do that...it is everyday.... We had to die before we got any equipment.....now put yourself in my boots, who are you going to blame..... The government listens to the public....if they're is no uproar then there is no action..... Had this been a no fail mission the Canadian public would have been their to fully support our cause....But it was not, hence why i say this was a Canadian military mission only....we did all the work, we did all the bleeding , we did all the greiving.....the Canadian public has not right to call it a failure...you lost that honor when you abandoned us on the battle field.

Well in Aghanistan you had to be both, as we did not know from one day to another what we were going to be doing, building a well, or hunting bad guys.....

It's the only thing i know how to do, is soldier....

Thank you for your support, And yes the military is a tool in which our government implememnts our foreign policy, after diplomacy fails. Like any dept within the government each has a task assigned to it, Such as the RCMP which have law and order. That does not mean it's members opinions should be discounted in any debate. If anything i believe it would be constructive. We are after all Canadians citizens as well and have opinions of our own. The real question our government should have asked is Can Canadians be counted to hold on to the support ? That answer was a big NO.....The country was split on this, Canadian soldiers had the opinion that we could make a difference, for the first time in a long time this conflict was not about oil, or resources of any kind, but rather righting a wrong , and giving the people of Afghanistan some hope of peace.... Canadian citizens gave up on all of that, the war dragged on, they quickly lost interest and went on with their lifes, with that lost interest our soldiers felt the effects, much needed equipment was not purchased in time, that time would come at a cost, the cost of our soldiers lives....Soldiers quickly developed the opinion that this was our war,not the Canadian citizens... we would try to make a difference without the citizens of Canada....we wanted to finsh the job that the citizens gave us, it is who we are,what we trained for... second place is for lossers....Hence why we were so reluctant to come home.... What was the main goal of the fighting over there ? well it changed over time, but our first goal was to destroy terrorist elements within the country, that was done, their main base of operations were pushed into neiboring countries, such as Pakistan....Destroy any other threat that prevented us from accomplishing the first, that was the taliban, also pushed into neiboring countries.... You can't eradicate an idea, there will always be that one person who will tell others....so there will always be an AQ or Taliban...armed intervention will however make their job and that process very difficult....Also remeber it is very easy to terrorize a large group of people with very little effort....and it can happen any where in the world...So the orginal plan was not to destroy everything about the AQ and Taliban but to remove them from AFghanisatn....and we did that.... The people of Afghanistan have had more than 40 years of constant conflict...the want peace, the want security to raise a family and provide for them....And they will find that in any corner they can...But they know what they don't want, they don't want the taliban back,they don't want extremism... Their laws and traditions may seem foreign to you,on the extreme side, but that is part of their culture, and takes time to change....we did not just wake up one morning and decide to let women vote....it took time to change....We did not go over there to change them into Canadians, we went over to rebuild their nation with their vision....not ours...we are talking about a nation that after 30 years of war did not have to much in the way of infra structure....so a well for drinking water is a big thing over there....Canadian soldiers built thousands, along with major highways so they could get trade goods in and out with little effort...we built a hydro electrical dam to provide electricity...we built irrgation ditches so they could grow crops,....Our soldiers built out of their own pockets a hospital, firehall, along with fire trucks and ambs....the list is endless, every tour had a project, or two....on top of the regular stuff.... Maybe the Canadian people do think it was a huge failure, maybe it is just me that thinks that our efforts changed lifes for the good, maybe it just me clinging onto the hope that all our blood sweat and tears were not for nothing...maybe i don't want the sacrifice of so many good men and women be for not..... During my second tour we had stopped along a wall that had some shade, to eat lunch, the kids had already gathered "they knew the boys would share their meals"...a small girl about 8 or 10 sat down beside me, she had no hands, you see the taliban had cut them off because her father sent her to school, i later found out that they had also killed her father in front of her....dispite lossing so much....she thanked me...she had said without our precence she would not be able to go to school....She thanked me, WOW...here is a 8 to 10 year old setting the example for future generations, she has lost her father, her hands and she thanked me a foreigner....thats when i decided that if she could give so much of herself, why could i not give up something.....my time, alittle sweat, some blood....if not for anything else but to let her go to school.... But by then Canadians had grown tired of the whole Afghan mess, they did'nt have to do anything except perhaps 20 to 30 dollars of their tax dollars would keep me and the thousands of Canadian troops in the area so the girls could go to school.....it would piss me off that the average Canadian could not do that.... I get that the whole afghanistan thing was more than girls going to school....their are thousands of stories just like mine that motivated soldiers....The average soldier of the time has done 3 or more tours, they have volunteered each one of those times....the have risked it all...the question Canadians have to ask is why?

Funney that the majority of Canadians approved this very mission...They knew what we were going to do, we as a nation were going to force the taliban to their knees and destroy AQ means of making war....We as a nation knew that on day one....we were sending our troops into combat....There was no talk off cleaning up anything....we were supporting an allied, living up to our defensive agreements....we signed on to the War on Terror....no questions asked...people by the thousands showed up to wave goodbye, show their support.... At the very least answer this question, with all Canada has to offer why not help the people of Afghanistan have a chance at peace.

I spent 3 long tours in Afghanistan, alot of blood,sweat,tears were left behind...Did i think it was worth it. Yes i do, every minute i was there....don't get me wrong there were sometimes i questioned the WHY was i here....those moments were normally on the tarmac as we escorted another comrad's flag drapped coffin onto a herc for the long journey home...I would gladly do it all over again...Remember it was not Canada's soldiers that gave up on Afghanistan, it was her people.... Canadians can question the WHY anytime they want...But to call the mission a complete failure thats Bullshit.....Answer these questions .....Is Al Quida living and training and operating within Afghanistan...Or for that matter is the Taliban still in control of Afghanistan....Then ask your self this how many major reconstruction projects did Canada take on and complete, how many thousands of smaller projects did we do....do you think that these projects had any impact? The People of Afghanistan want peace, a place to raise their families, a place they can get work....and they are ready to talk to anyone that can supply those answers.... Perhaps we should take the question to the Afghanistan people.

I think Waldo has hit the nail right on the head, we need our federal government to lay out what it is willing to give up to Quebec before the vote....for serveral reasons, to let Quebecors know exactly what they are getting into. I think most of them think this is going to be cast a vote and things will continue as per normal..... I think the ROC are sick and tired of Quebec holding us hostage....it's time for the Hostages to speak... There has to be a thousand papers and documentaries out there discussing the topic,one side sees doom and gloom for both sides the other the PQ thinks it is all going to be roses..... the PQ thinks they will get everything they want, that includes there present borders, meaning that the Atlantic provinces will be cut off from everything..they want to use our dollar plus have a seat on the bank of Canada to ensure there interwests are looked after, they want NLFD electrical power,the list goes on and on....what needs to be announced is what we are will to give up and what comprosmises Quebec is going to have to make. So the voters in Quebec are playing on a level palying field before casting their votes only to find out later that is not the case....

I think Derek already covered these questions in detail.... I'm not a navy expert but as in all our other purchases, alot of things drive up the price.... Our own purcurement policies have alot to do with it, designed to install price sticker shock to the public...like the need to add on how much will it take to operate over a fix period (over 25 years or more) ....how much fuel will cost to operate, crews wages, price of AMMO,etc etc items that are already taken in to account by DND OEM budget.....It is a way to control how many is purchased.... The need to have it built in Canada, in this case building ships of these sizes and with the tech involved in ship yards that have not done so in years....cost of labor another factor...how much does a canadian worker make compared to a south Korean...The cost of rebuiding our ship building capabilites comes at a cost....perhaps that cost should have been an entirely different project..... Nothing will change in the way we buy things.....until our policies and proceedures of purchasing are changed....in my personal opinion we need to take out the politics portion altogether. We need to concentrate on what is most important, getting the biggest bang for our buck.... DND needs to create a purchasing program for each element, and the team stick to a project until completion...Purchasing Maj equipment needs to be a separate trade within the forces...and that team needs to work directly with PWSG for the entire life of the project....

I find it way to amusing, actually not amusing but concerning that BC's simple question could not be answered, .....instead alot of the posters here find the question to difficult to answer, and like most Canadians when confused or cornered revert back to one of their basic Canadian rights given to them by our charter " Bash Americans when ever they can".... But then again we had also the same problem when asked what makes a Canadian, or what are Canadian values.....it turned into a bash American thread as well..... Does the Canadian dream stop at owning your own home , and piece of land.....if it does then i think the dream is alive and well, with a majority of Canadians owning one, shit today you'd be hard press to not find 2 cars in the driveway, sometimes a boat, ATV or Sled, god knows how many other toys hidden from view, inside those homes how many TV's, DVD players, stainless steel app, would you find..... the source that was provided took the reader on a trip that everyone wanted to believe.....and yet reality says something different.... But i think the Canadian dream is more than owning a house, i think it is about having access to free medical care, it's about living in a free country that even a single person can make changes, it's about having access to good paying jobs to provide for your family....it's about living in a country that has a safe enviroment to raise children. It's about having access to an abundance of food , resources, entertainment,education and a high standard of living....It's about having acess to a welfare and unemployment system for when your down on your luck....Really when you think about we have a system for everything, every problem Canadians are afflicted with,drug and achole related depression the list goes on, much to long but you get the idea.... The Canadian dream is about having peace of mind so you can sit down in your lazy boy chair, watch the NHL hockey game on your wide screen TV, and take your electronic devices with you to the bath room just so you don't miss any of the game....with a small beer fridge right next to your lazy boy so you can enjoy your favorite Canadian beer, with your 2.5 children and dog, and cat.....and 3 gold fish, and a hampster....all while your wife prepares snacks for everyone that could feed a small african village of 50....

Yes , the US should of separated young mr Khadr from the main stream prisoners, he should have been charged way earlier than he was, on the other hand maybe they should have been just declared combatants and held as POW's until the conflict ended.... A drone strike is just another wpn sys, only this one is fired by a UAV, and puts no soldiers lifes in danger to use it....if it is shot down it does not have the same effect as dragging a dead soldiers body down the street.....thats why it's so popular....Once you are declared a hostile, be it legal or illigal combatant any Coalition soldier is free to engage, at any time any where .... the convention does not say NO civilian cas, it says to limit them.... hence the word colateral damage sound cold..War is cold.......war is controled by mr murphy and his law, what can go wrong will go wrong....war is about death and destruction, to inflict as much upon your enemy as possiable so that he sues for peace.....war is guided by some laws, the rest is guided by the men and women thrown together in a life and death struggle..... So a wedding party what is the differece between that or a birthday party, a trip to the market, getting off school...Why are we surprised at that....maybe everyone should spend a couple of days in a war zone, smell the smells, taste the smells, see the death, touch the destruction , hear the screams...........we all should be forced to study war and it's effects....maybe we would think twice on doing it..... I think the legal people call that "extrajudicial execution, Soldiers call another day at the office....and if your going to invite a bad guy to your wedding make sure it's in a bunker....