Army Guy

Israel defence budget is approx 12.4 Bil US dollars without US aid, with US aid it's 15.4 bil...hardly a make it or break it contribution... Somehow you forgot to mention what each of the other middle east countries recieve.

But the piont is it still had a role to play, yes it was re roled to keep up with ever changing tactics, and new tech, once tech allowed for a ship designed for the littoral role then the battleship as we know it was retired or should we say redesigned into a smaller lighter ship... Anything is possiable, i'm sure the German U boat commanders also have a great many of these stories as well, but then again so do the destroyers, and frigs and covette guys...sometimes murphy smiles upon you sometimes he sticks it to you.... One also has to put into contect the rules of engagement, even during the Vietnam war i'm sure carriers carried Nuk wpns...And from what i've read the new russian missle has perked up a shit load of US navy guys....as i'm sure a counter measure is on the books...all i'm saying is one wpns sys does not make an entire carrier battle group obsolete. So in ensence your saying manned fighters are going to be obsolete...that UCAV's of some form will rule tomorrow. That starts up an entirely new subject.... I guess i have some job security....i was kind of hoping for the opposite... My basic training Sgt, had a saying you can stop anything with the correct amount of balls and steel.... once a force is stalled it is hard for them to regain momentum needed to overcome an obsticle....such as a simple anti tank ditch...what works for them will also work in reverse...put enough metal on targets and something is going to give....we all don't get this lucky, thank god that the Taliban have not found this correct measure....but normally armoured forces do very well again'st grunts....

I guess the first step is to get our government to listen, listen to the voters...and if the voters place the military high enough on what they are looking at for the next leader of this country it will spur them into action..I know a large majority of Canadians are not happy with the state of our military, and many have spoken on this fact be it writing thier MP's rallies, , i guess we (citizens) are not unifed on the priorty we want our government to spend our tax dollars on... Well it goes along way in explaining lots of things, but it's not the only reasons. Over all i would say we have great leadership at the military level, and i do believe our government has our best interests in mind for the most part....and Canadians do care...i just hope we can all unite, and fix a problem that has rotted the forces for sometime now... I'm going to say yes, because of the way we are stuctured, and the way our government is structured which is a major road block in all the processes we have...we've created a mountain of red tape, and mounds of depts required to approve anything, from how much a soldier gets paided , to equipment purchases, basically everything the forces does...including combat... Both, when you live by the minute, you spend for that minute...also the way the entire government is set up for departmental funding...here is your budget , spend it or you'll get less next year...and there has been lots of spending , for the sake of spending....when this cash could have been used for something else...but this is a problem across every dept..not just DND. Our infamous purcurement process...another Made in Canada solution, that does nothing for the military, or for that matter for any dept i'm sure....I'll explain, the military wants to purchase a new truck.... it provides specs to PWSG a civlian organization...which goes out to the world with these specs, and gathers up wide varity of choices....sounds fair, much like telling your wife, i need a power tool that can cut a straight line...you can imagine what selection you will get....anyways from there we test them...we pick which one we want, thats within governmental regulations, that pretty much limit where when and what you buy....then it goes back to the government, it decides or comes back chose again, this time chose one that can be built or provide something back to Canada...a good rule normally but this is how we ended up with the famous LSVW...the government kept sending it back for testing until it passed, because it could be built in BC, by western star...DND had to take it down to the desert in the states to do final testing...guess what we have a truck that runs and works great in the desert...but sucks any where else....Yes we did approve it, but really it was a matter of approve or keep what you have now.... The perfect system would be tell DND we will fund you this year x amount of dollars to purchase equipment...follow these basic guide lines, some equipment will need governmental approval, such as stratigic equipemt like some types of ships, Subs, nuk wpns...that sort of thing...but the basic stuff like trucks tanks, helos, etc etc that should be a no brainer...And the purchases we do make should be justifiable to the government... Take a look at just what DND is on the hook for, all these expenditures in Afghan, that are not CIDA related are coming out of DND coffers...every mission is...any internal missions we do such as the olimpics, aid to civil power come out of DND coffers...plus there is other depts that come out of DND coffers, the Dept of emergancy prepations and planing, and a few more they are small but cut close to a bil or more off an already tight budget....It's all laid out in detail on each depts funding break down...not sure of the exact web site but it can be goggled... Not enough equipment to train on...bottom line there is just not enough vehs, wpns, night vision equipment, protective equipment, Basic clothing, we are short on everything....i don't mean a few here and there, most units only have 2/3 of thier peace time allotment of equipemt some less than 1/2...this shortage means DND moves it equipemt around alot....and when you place that muich demand on one piece it burns out much faster than expected, becomes even more expensive to maintain, etc etc ....for instance take the LAV III we have , when we purchased them we did not buy enough for each unit, now consider this all the equipement destroyed in training, subtract the equipment in use in Afghan, subtract the equipment destroyed in Afghan....and subtract the equipment just worn out because our numbers get smaller, and the remainder get used more....now we are in the market to replace the LAV III with serveral different makes and models...but we are once more going to buy less...because there simply is not enough funds... I'd say another issue is how we treat our wounded soldiers, yes we are getting better at it, but there simply not enough doctors or shrienks out there....Soldiers face long waiting times to get help they need... How we treat our families, always the last on every militaries list, but one of the most important... yes thier are family resource centers, and more programs in the last 5 years than we have ever had but more needs to be done in this area...not only providing our family members with the same access to doctors and shrienks....but also other programs such as affordable housing, more facilities, and other programs designed around the entire family unit....I once had a conversation with my son he was 9 years old on my last deplyment, it was a bad year for casualities, of course some of his classmates had lost thier fathers...and kids being kids made up a death poll...not all his class mates fathers where soldiers, yes the teachers put a stop to it, but it did play upon each of thier minds...this school now has a military support group, in which all military kids go in after school and just talk...and info is provided to them, things explained to them, rumours dispelled.... Don't get me wrong things are changing fast...but i would sacrifice some equipment purchases, to ensure our families have the best care money can buy... Overall we are well paid, well lead, and have the support of the people, and in return you have a great military that is well motivated to serve this nation, i just hope we can fix our problems together before it's to late...

I'm sure some navy guy can provide a more detailed picture, but the Belgrano was a cruiser. much smaller than the avg Battleship, she was also built during the second world war, but i doubt she was as modern as say the retired Missouri and her battle group. Correct me if i'm wrong but within the US navy the Battleship was the central part of a battle group, much like the Aircraft carrier is today, and like any naval battle group it's strength was in that battle group as a whole, each ship bringing something to the table...All that being said i have my doubts that a modern sub could have gotten past the battle groups own hunter killer subs, but anything is possiable... I think you underestamate the power of a carrier fleet and what it brings to the table, such as enough fire power to wipe out entire countries...If a Carrier group can make Mother Russia sit up and take notice...then thier has to be something about the abilities a carrier groups brings to the table...I'm sure even China would not want serveral Carrier groups parked off it's coast... 15 mins survival time, back in the day, when i was a young buck the avg survival time for the avg infanteer on a modern battle field was 7 seconds, from the time you stepped foot on it until someone carried you off...and yet the Infanteer will always have a role to play on the battle field...like i said before every thing has it's place it's use, and when combined that is when you see it's true value... In what way are they numbered, Just because the world is tuned itself into this Insurgent warfare rules concept don't for one second believe that the defense of this nation does not require fast air...it is a critical tool as important as ships, troops, tanks etc...much like chess each piece has a role to play, and when they are combined that is what makes them so deadly....without an aircraft to sweep the skies clean of enemy aircraft, ground forces are vunable to airstrikes...Ask the Iraqis, or Germans what it is like not to have air superiority....now add the valuable platform for delivering ordance on target on demand...good in any kind of war fare...you want a mulit task aircraft you need to pay for that... As for your fleet of helo's anything that flys is missle bait...the closer to the ground you get you alos have to worry about ground fire...Not only is the Leo IIA6 excellent at killing other tanks, but it is also very good a killing helo's, it's fire control systems are more than capable of tracking slow movers such as attack and transport helos' not only tracking them but predicting where they are going to when the shot arrives on target...top all that off with thousands of pissed off grunts like me with a some sort of wpn and you have a very deadly enviroment.... They do have a vast aray of anti tank missles available to them....however as i said a couple times already, when every wpns sys is used together it can not be defeated by one wpns sys alone...Inf screen for enemy inf , tanks provided direct and indirect fire when need, Attack helos provide the same in the air for all ground forces, etc etc when used together no one can get close enough to use those wpns...hence why they have relied on the IED, and commnad detonated the devices and have scored and damaged serveral of our tanks....

Well said AM, for alot of Canadians it is just an opportunity to piont thier fingers once again, for them it has never been about assisting in rebuilding a nation of millions, to give them a small taste of what we here enjoy and take for granted everyday...NO for them it has been about saying it is impossable tasking to accomplish, it's a waste of my tax dollars, and a waste of time, and energy... because thier victory has cost them nothing, but a few tax dollars....it is this investment that has them choked up, almost to the piont of actually getting out of thier chairs, and doing something about the mission. And yet i've yet to hear anything from the supporters of this mission, no one threatening the "i told you so speach" instead most will reflect on the time and effort that went into the mission....No finger pionting , no parades, no speaches....

Canada has alrady spent alot of time and funds chosing an replacement aircraft for the F-18....It was narrowed down to 3 aircraft, F-35, F-22 and Euro fighter...DO to cost the F-22 was knocked out, and well the F-35 is a better aircraft than the Euro fighter hands down...So if Canada ever gets the funding to purchase aircraft it's a no brainer... The government actually spent more time studying the pros and cons of manned or unmanned aircraft, than it did narrowing down the field to the F-35...

And yet they still served in most navies until well into the 90's, and well most have been made into museums they are still around... To even suggest the Aircraft carrier is a thing of the past, well sir, is alittle funney one commie missle does not make an entire naval battle group obsolete, it simply means that the battle group will have to incorporate different tactics and defensive systems. I think the Aircraft Carrier is here to stay for atleast another 30 years, serveral countries are spending billions on these new advance Carriers...It is one of the largest power projection tools in the US arsenal,in anyones arsenal and i don't think they willing to lose it just yet... As for fighters, I've read some of the research done by the CF in regards to the JSF, it seems that there was a huge concern over which type of fighter to purchase or wait for, Manned (F-35)or unmaned UCAV ( I think i may have it electronically i can PM it to anyone that wants it, it's not really for public consumption so i won't post a link to it) but no mention or concern of retiring the fighter as a tool of war...UCAV tech is coming and it won't be soon after the F-35 hits the market that the US will come up with a bigger badder UCAV, But as long as Man or i should say the Pilots have the need for thier adrinaline rush of going mach alot with thier ass on fire....man aircraft are here for awhile... After the cold war, governments where talking about getting rid of the tank....once again because of missle tech....and yet every nation seems to continue buying them up...missles or no missles...and yet every conflict we use them, because they serve an important role on the battle field.

More on Canada's concern about Software not being provided, it seems Canada is not all that concerned after all, media hype, Maybe.... My linkcommunities.canada.com

Which goes along way to proving my orginal statement of: We as a nation made that decision and now we must own it, instead of blaming one polictical party or another, or the Americans...

You mean maint on the computers themselfs, because the Military does not really repair much , what it does is replace parts until the fault is fixed...broken the computer replace it with a new one....I think there is more to this problem than what has been reported, there must be a way to maintain the aircraft, unless a US maint crew comes with each aircraft....

Israel has done just fine without it's supporters, it's history is full of examples....Most of Israel's history is written by Israelis blood...not American.

So you purchased the maint codes for your veh when you purchased it, Want to upgrade your computer codes buy the upgraded computer oh wait they'll do that.......This has more to do with the US protecting the tech already in the flight computers, Taking control over in flight controls of jets now your reaching.but might make a great movie....And the war with the US comment, come on...where is my tin foil hat again...

I know your a fan of the Military Smallc , but would you say the ability to deploy 3500 troops at one time, was pulling our wieght of a G-8 nation with close to what 36 million people.

The condition of our current security appartus and all that goes with that, belongs with the Citizens of Canada, it is after all what we the people of this nation are willing to live with, and accept...want to piont a finger, start with you and me.

NO, NO, NO, Our military is exactly the way CANADIANS want it...I'm sure we've all heard the stories of Americans offering us equipment by the boat loads at reduced prices, that includes our NATO allieds , shit Germany practically gave away it's older leo tank fleet away...and yet we did not even ask "how much". No we are in our current status because Canadians want us there plain and simple...we need to own this problem...

I'll agree that a large majority of Afghans do want peace, and freedoms not available under Taliban rule. That same majority also don't like the incent casualities that are produced when engaging thier enemies...and nobody in the same postion does, however, in order to accomplish that tasking and the very nature of insurgent warfare those Casualities are very hard to control. But until someone comes up with another viaable solution, we will have to stick with this game plan....Sitting back and hoping they will sort this out themselfs is not an option, it helps no one, and we are complict in those taliban crimes for doing just that.... Your right Canadians are a fast food , fast service people and if we can not have it in 30 mins we want it for free....rebuilding a nation can not be held to the same standards, it takes time lots of time...So if we knew this going in to this project why in the hell did we stick our hands up and volunteer for it....as for the history if your suggesting that it is a mission imposiable , then i say bullshit...Canadians have a long history of accomplishing the imposiable.... Not true, re read the history of the Taliban. Would you say Germany was a complicated culture perhaps Japan, i'd say i record of rebuilding nations is pretty good, if given the time and effort to do it properly....But then again we want results yesterday....and yet NATO has made progress , large steps towards peace, but they count for what...nothing...

Are you saying that the majority of Afghans don't want this gift, or just not from NATO... So your alright with sitting back here in Canada, with all our freedoms, wealth, and "gifts" and do nothing but watch, Yes we can give them leasons on Human rights, and we can teach them how to trade responsabilty....but niether will put food on thier tables now, nor will it provide for the families now...I know it is hard to understand as Canadians as we have so much, Very few of us understand what is like to live in Afghan and the struggles and sacrifices they make just to make it through the day....And while we have some people here in Canada, that go hungry , and homeless, etc etc...they would be considered well off in Afghan.... I am postive that if you showed up in Afghan and all you had to offer was what you mentioned....you to would be on a plane , or finding yourself with a bag over your head, awaiting your fate.... So waiting is your answer....I wonder what your comments would be if you where in Afghan right now, had'nt eaten in days, slept on a dirt floor, living under the constant death threats of terrorist....would you want the west to wait...until something sorted it self out....or would you want someone to do something.... Some times a gift, our gift needs to be delivered with the force of arms...so those that need it get it...and those terrorist scumbags well they get what they deserve as well....you may not like it...but that is reality , it is how this world operates...we did not invent the rules, they did....

So slowing cutting ones head off is not torture, but execution, but listening to loud music for extended times is ....Just so i get this right it is also not torture if i take a chain saw and slowly saw off each of your limbs until you bleed out....but i can't make you listen to rap music, deprieve you of your bible, or Koran, ....No wonder this topic is so confusing.

Jaysfan. We are greatful, not only for the job, but for the honour of serving this great nation. We owe our very existance to the people of Canada that much is true and from one soldier i say "thanks" for this once in a life time oportunity. This nation has chosen a very select group of people / tax payers to provide the essential service of defending this nation and carrying out our foreign policy. This group of people live by words such as duty,honour and sacrifice. We take these words to the next level, not just to show our commitment to our Nation and it's people but because we think our nation deserve nothing more than excellance. And all we ask in return is a few momnets of your time on Nov 11, and perhaps some of your respect. nothing more.

These cuts are now taking effect on Military budgets, as DND is trying to get ahead of the curve. I just hope it's not the same as the liberals cut backs. My linkcommunities.canada.com

Apparently the Allieds felt diferently, while i'm sure at this time the allieds where very confident that the Nazi regime was in it's last spasmisms....it was far from finsihed...a couple of months of combat on 3 fronts takes a few troops to accomplish....and could have turned out some what differently if things had changed....and to prevent that and speed up the destroying of the NAZI empire it was decided to hit drsden, berlin and serveral other cities....that is made very clear in the sources i've provided you... The US Air Force Historical Division wrote a report in response to the international concern about the bombing, which was classified until December 1978.[30] This said that there were 110 factories and 50,000 workers in the city supporting the German war effort at the time of the raid.[31] According to the report, there were aircraft components factories; a poison gas factory (Chemische Fabrik Goye and Company); an anti-aircraft and field gun factory (Lehman); an optical goods factory (Zeiss Ikon AG); as well as factories producing electrical and X-ray apparatus (Koch and Sterzel AG); gears and differentials (Saxoniswerke); and electric gauges (Gebruder Bassler). It also said there were barracks, and hutted camps, and a munitions storage depot.[32] The USAF report also states that two of Dresden's traffic routes were of military importance: north-south from Germany to Czechoslovakia, and east-west along the central European uplands.[33] The city was at the junction of the Berlin-Prague-Vienna railway line, as well as the Munich-Breslau, and Hamburg-Leipzig.[33] Colonel Harold E. Cook, a US POW held in the Friedrichstadt marshaling yard the night before the attacks, later said that "I saw with my own eyes that Dresden was an armed camp: thousands of German troops, tanks and artillery and miles of freight cars loaded with supplies supporting and transporting German logistics towards the east to meet the Russians."[34] An RAF memo issued to airmen on the night of the attack said: “ Dresden, the seventh largest city in Germany and not much smaller than Manchester is also the largest unbombed builtup area the enemy has got. In the midst of winter with refugees pouring westward and troops to be rested, roofs are at a premium, not only to give shelter to workers, refugees, and troops alike, but to house the administrative services displaced from other areas. At one time well known for its china, Dresden has developed into an industrial city of first-class importance ... The intentions of the attack are to hit the enemy where he will feel it most, behind an already partially collapsed front ... and incidentally to show the Russians when they arrive what Bomber Command can do.[35] 17. The Allied-Russian interchanges that had begun in the closing months of 1944 and had become, with the passing of time, more frequent and more specific, culminated in the ARGONAUT Conferences of January-February 1945. On 4 February, President Roosevelt, Prime Minister Churchill, and Marshal Stalin, together with their foreign secretaries and military advisors, assembled at Yalta to present definitive and specific plans, and requests, for bringing the war against Germany to a victorious conclusion, by the summer of 1945, if possible (Other considerations involved in the ARGONAUT deliberations are not pertinent or relevant here). At this meeting, Marshal Stalin asked Army General Antonov, Deputy Chief of the Russian General Staff, to outline to the Conference the situation existing on the Eastern Front and to describe Russia’s plans for subsequent operations. At the conclusion of his extended presentation, General Antonov made three specific requests for Allied assistance to the Russians: 27 My link Our wishes are: a. To speed up the advance of the Allied troops on the Western Front, for which the present situation is very favorable: (1) To defeat the Germans on the Eastern Front. (2) To defeat the German groupings which have advanced into the Ardennes. (3) The weakening of the German forces in the West in connection with the shifting of their reserves to the East (It is desirable to begin the advance during the first half of February). b. By air action on communications hinder the enemy from carrying out the shifting of his troops to the East from the Western Front, from Norway, and from Italy (In particular, to paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig). c. Not permit the enemy to remove his forces from Italy. 18. It was the specific Russian request for bombing communications, coupled with the emphasis on forcing troops to shift from west to east through communications centers, that led to the Allied bombings of Dresden. The structure of the Berlin-Leipzig-Dresden railway complex, as outlined in paragraph 8 above, required that Dresden, as well as Berlin and Leipzig, be bombed. Therefore Allied air authorities concluded that the bombing of Dresden would have to be undertaken (1) in order to implement strategic objectives, of mutual importance to the Allies and the Russians, and now agreed upon at the highest levels of governmental authority, and (2) to respond to the specific Russian request presented to the Allies by General Antonov to “paralyze the junctions of Berlin and Leipzig.” My linkwww.airforcehistory.hq. Germany was still a very capable enemy, with the means to inflict damage to the allieds...for the allieds just to throw up thier arms and say, they're finished , we won't attack any more would allow germany the time and space to reorg, and fight some more....while Germany may of been down on one knee it was far from dying on it's own....

So what we have here is this fact the Military did move them after alleged evidence was found, i say alleged because nothing has been proven that abuse happened....and now i'm sure one of these prisoners will complain about the 3 rd place they are detained....until we run out of options... And the headlines read coming to a major hotel complex near you, "Taliban prisoners" , yes scumbags and scally wags who's only goal in life is to see us infidels pay for what we've done...under they're new terms of Prisoner rights programs afforded by the some of Canadians , they have to be back in these 5 star hotels before mid night....the government has cautioned the people to stay hidden in thier homes until after mid night.

I know deep down your a conservative, or want to be....as for the majority, got a better solution....

I said it needed to be extinguished, and in the larger picture it was, defeated, and while some NAZI's may of been exported, i've yet to see a 4 th riech emerge...have you... Nazism was not extinguished. Just like so many German scientists and engineers were taken by the allies to work for them, for example in America. So too the models of nazism, and fascism did not die, they too were simply exported to America. To the victor goes the spoils, as they say...

I've got a question, i think we all know that not all Germans supported the NAZI's, shit there are many that actually openly said so, and plenty more that thought the same...but kept that to themselfs for good reason.... But here is the question in regards to the entire German people, if you go along with a government or regime and don't take action for what ever reason, fear,values etc etc , are you not complict in thier actions...i mean early in the war many German's did have options, thousands took those options, ie moving to another country, etc etc...for those that remained they also had other options including taking some sort of action, i know there was consquences, including finding oneself in a concentration camp...But we already set precedance that "I was folowing orders", or "I was afraid for my life" was NOT a vaild excuse for the german population and they would be accountable for thier actions or in this case the lack of actions.... If this was the case, why is it now that we can not say most germans were complict, and infact made up a part of the NAZI war machine....Dresden was reported to have over 50,000 industrial workers, producing valuable war products, not counting the thousands providing services, related to war. In the total war concept they are considered legimate targets.... So Gabriel brings that discussion to a head, perhaps in a brutal, not very politically correct way, but none the less he's just stating the facts, and thought process of the time...And yet today we have a problem, we can not fathom a total war situation in which we as a nation would declare the total destruction of an idiology, that had gain so much fevour within a nation...NAZISM had firmly gripped Germany, Europe, and most of the free world....and needed to be extinguished. and Kill them all was the battle cry during that day, regardless of the cost...