Army Guy

I'm Curious to why the BNA act in 1867 is the one you have chosen as a bench mark, As British imperial control of Canada did not end on that date. infact it continued until 1931 with the Statute of westminster....when we gained legislative sovereignty on all maters except with regards to constitutional laws , those were not given back to Canada until 1982.....we did not get our offical flag until 1965, until then we flew the Union jack, and configuations of it. Just a side note, up until Until 1947, Canada was a nation without citizens. "Canadians" were simply British subjects living in Canada. On Jan. 1, 1947, the Canadian Citizenship Act came into effect and Canadians finally became "Canadian citizens. Very confusing stuff, they say the birth of Canada is 1867, and yet Canada was not a nation per say, it was a land mass called Canada under British rule.....So i ask again why 1867. why not 1931, or 1947 or 1982....And if we indentify our birth date on 1867 as a british conlony why not go further back to british citizens that indentified themselfs as Canadians. such as 1775. They indentify themselfs as Canadians as far back as 1775, with the 1 st and 2 and Canadian regiments....who faught again'st the British forces, along side the American rebels..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_under_British_rule http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_under_British_rule With all that new info, why does the war of 1775 not count, or the war in 1812, or the boar war, after all the citizens of this era did indentify themselfs as Canadians, and they were defending themselfs and this nation. As for the oath, it has everything to do with it, Afghanistan was in Canada's interest, as part of the defensive pact we had signed as NATO. Maybe you should look up the meaning of Merc to so if the term fits.

What kind of crazy statement is that, "Canada has never been invaded by another that we did not declare war on first! Therefore, not one Canadian has ever died in the defence of Canadians" Are you saying if war is declared by our Government , Canadians that answer the call to duty, are not fighting for Canadians, not fighting to defend Canada ....even when our enemies are on Canadian soil..... I mean once war is declared we should what go home, because we are no longer fighting for Canadians.....Perhaps we both studied different Canadian military history... War of 1812, WW I and WWII seen direct attacks on Canadian soil, with the loss of Canadian men, women, children on top of those the died or were wounded in those actions.... Now we have to change tomb stone data , rewrite history....Stop sending out Vet checks all because they were mercs instead of Canadian citizens answering a call to defend our country..... Perhaps you should read the oath of alligence every member swears to....defending the nation, from enemies foreign and domestic, and to uphold Canadian national interests regardless of where they are.....( part of those interests are the defence pacts we have signed with other nations)..... Sorry WWWTT, but i had expected more from you.

Not everyone that served shares your opinion, but it has already been said here, this is not about if the mission was worth our nations time and money....It's to mark the end of the mission, and to pay tribute to the fallen, wounded, and the burden placed upon the families.... and all it costs is a few mins of silence....

Nothing is going to change, it will be in the media for a short period, but what is going to happen, is the league going to take his team away, No.....Are is players going to leave, NO i mean they already shown that they like their money to much....wearing shirts inside out.....thats scary , a huge statement " NOT" ....So yes the players got their feelings hurt, but they like their contracts to much to make change.... Now in my opinion the only way to get this pricks attention is refuse to play, hit him in the pocket book....when he is not making money he'll sell thats what rich guys do.....players go on strike all the time, why can't a team just say until their is change we won't play....Get the fans involved, tell them to stay away, as a show of support....The guy sits front row seating, a few missed passes that happen to land in his face will wake him up..... Is change needed yes it is, is it going to happen i doubt it very much, Money talks, the rest is bullshit...unless your want to stick up for your beliefs.

Well that was a well thought out reply...It's has nothing to do with what they think, it is a fact. Skilled labors are moving to where they can get better wages, and who can blame them .....and it is having a major effect in the atlantic provinces...I'm sure it is also effecting the rest of the provinces as well.

That would depend on where you live, Atlantic provinces has always been a meca for min wage jobs, and those that wanted more have moved out west in search of better wages, it is now to the piont where alot of skilled labors such as in the construction fields, are so short workers it is effecting new builds even major construction jobs....in fact most maritimer papers are filled with employer ads from out west offering bonus, free moves, etc etc....martime employers can not compete...

It's not Ukraine i'm worried about , it's all that NATO and Russian equipment on the ground, air and sea that is an accident waiting to happen.....

History has shown us through hundrds of examples that the victor does make the rules....like it or not.... You miss the piont...Be like me making up the rules for the fishing industry....not knowing anything about it....

If that was true that we had abandoned our princples then why go through all the effort to change the policies....i think we were caught unprepared, and had to act.... I will give you mahar arar, RCMP made a major mistake....Omar should not of been tortured, but i won't be playing any violin for him.... Like i said taking the high ground is costly, both action and inaction have a price....If the US gave us info on a threat to say toronto sub way, dates and timings according to you we should bury that info because it was tainted by torture....and we let it all happen, because to act would be using that info "that would be against the law" ...sorry i find that hard to swallow.....even harder to explain to the victims.... I do agree with the law that we do not solicite info from countries that torture....or do we activily particapate in torture.... So to hold the high ground we would have to invest in our own intel gather network and appratus if we were not to be realiant on other SUSPECT nations....we can't even equip our military, how do accomplish this great feat....

Perhaps you are right Big Guy, perhaps in the future a new light will expose something different and secrets will be exposed. And those that are guilty are held accountable we could only hope. But today, all we have is accusations made by known enemies , which may or may not be designed to hurt NATO nations. Nothing has been proven, That the Canadian government knew that prisoners were being handed over to be tortured or they would be abused while in another nations custody. Despite serveral investagations, by the military MP's, government appionted team, and by NATO even the UN. None of them have proven with out a doubt that Canada has commited any war crimes. Canada has changed it's policies on POW's during this conflict serveral times, to reflect changes that became known at the time, it was presured to change once it became known that US may have abused it's prisoners it held....then once again when it came to light that Afghanis may be doing the same. I will admit our policies may not have been the best, or covered all the things that could have gone wrong....but i believe we did not do them with the intention of abusing prisoners, be it to retrieve vital info, intel or etc.... When i first glanced at your comment "The nature of war is a series of atrocities, usually on both sides" i thought the word Atrocities was a bit harsh, normally used to discribe things such as the Holocaust, but when i thought about the bombings in germany i'm sure the german public would have used the same word to describe the allied action. I have constantly struggled with articulating what war is, and what it is like....your explaination sums it up very well... Like everything war is governed by rules, rules crafted in a room by men that for the most part that had no first hand experience of war.....Those rules were designed to control the insanty of warfare, to appease those back home, to give them the illusion of standing on the high ground..but on the ground in a soldiers boots, there is no high ground...every where you look is death and destruction....you pray that every decision is the right one, that you can keep your guys alive another day, that you don't break any rules, that you don't kill innocent civilians, that you use only enough force to get the job done....all of this in most cases is done in milli seconds.....and your right sometimes it does not work out in your favour.. All that being said most of the times the Canadian public do not understand war, what they understand is the high ground, sometimes the high ground is not achievable.... Like sharing info, why would we expect any dept not to use any info that has been tainted by torture....In defending our nation, why would we not atleast look at it, validate it.... Or pass on info to our allieds, vital info in ref to threats why should we be held accountable if that nation chose to take it and torture someone over it ....How would we know what their intentions are before hand.....I would understand if we had did it to intentional have someone tortured....But if our intention was to save lives....then why not....

Are you saying we had proof that the US was torturing inmates, while we were handing them over.....Because what i've read is that is the very reason we stopped handing over prisoners to the US and started with the Afghanis.....And while those same prisoners said they had been tortured by Afghanis officals that story was proven false.....So i'll ask again what war crimes has the entire nation of Canada been complict in.

Enlighten us.... eyeball what war crimes has the entire nation of Canada been complict in ?

The topic is not about handing over people to be tortured, it's about sharing info that may lead to torture.... Prisoners handed over to Afghan Government ....it was never proven if any Prisoners that the Canadian Military handed over were in fact tortured, lots of stories but no proof .....Now Prisoners that we handed over to the US government well not so much, but that practice stop as soon as our government found out about gitmo, and we began handing them over to the Afghan government ,as it was to expensive to build and operate our own prison....

Liberal majority..... because of horny women, and young people that have no interest in Politics....well sir that is a game changer.....It's good to see your excitement about politics....but i think you've got the wrong horse....

Sometimes the end does justify the means, dropping of the bombs can be argued here for years, a whole topic on it's own.... and to break it down alittle further, when we did raids on suspected bombers in Afghanistan, i did never question where the intel came from, nor did i care ....the only thing i was thinking was we made the roads alittle bit safer for us to travel on... So if Canada has intel info that can prevent another 9/11, or for that matter any allied incident , we should remain silent, just incase those names mentioned in that intel might get tortured.....and what if that country does the same, and this time 3000 Canadians get killed, be it here or overseas.....we live with that because that way we will have stood on the high ground...thats a high price to pay for the high ground.... Be a hard sell to the surviving victims family.....yes we are sorry, yes we did know of the attack, but we could not tell anyone because we thought the info could trigger some country into torturing those responsable.... I get it there is no ticking bomb, or those cases are very rare.....but as allieds we share info all the time,even if it has been gathered through torture.....all info needs to be vetted, and sourced once again.....to verify it.... as we all don't have massive intel gathering networks, even a scrap piece of info may be the one, your missing to solve that problem....this saves lives....time and funds....info is time sensitive and dies an early life.....We share info all the time in Afghanistan, about bad guys, bombers, suspected terrorist operators and it saved lives.... I agree that Canada should not have anything to do with torture....But i also agree that once that info is out there... that we should not close our eyes to it so we can hold the high ground........if it is valid and a threat to Canada action should be taken, and that info used to it's fullest.....Does that make us evil....No... Canada has a high standing when it comes to treatment of prisoners of war, but anyone who served in Afghanistan knew exactly how becoming a prisoner of war would turn out.....regardless of what our actions had been....Canada was lucky we did not suffer any captives...

I'd be happy with a 25 years sentence with no parole ....meaning 25 years with no parole....

What if that info saves lives, maybe Canadian lives in a foreign country.....what then...and where do you draw the line is Canada responsable for the actions of a another country.

Your right Michael, this post should have been reserved as a PM, and i should not of made it out to be about one of our newest members. But rather paying respects to Mr Flaherty.

I get the fact that we are not to feed the trolls, and i will apologize to the rest of the regular readers on this forum in advance, but the lack of respect from this guy has struck a cord......... you sir are a Limp DICK....Yes i could have used another colorful word to discribe you, but i'll stick with Limp DICK as it seems to discribe you and your cheerful attitude to a T..... Nobody on this forum has lionize Mr Flaherty to the piont of Sainthood, what they have done is instead commented on some of his highlights, we hairless apes do that when someone passes. It's out of respect for the man and his greiving family....And while he may not of been the best he was far from the worst, and i know i can hardly wait to hear your next poem , when you discribe them... So Limp Dick i want to thank you for setting the bar so high on your first couple of posts, but then again that is what arm chair critics do, sip lemonade from a sippy cup while sitting in their reclining chair all from the basement of their mothers home.....and comment on things, or people who had the courage to serve their country in some form or other. Well enough time spent on some hairless ape with nothing but disdain for everything and everyone. Good day limp dick.

They may have different rules, morals and values, but they are still held accountable for their actions under the conventions and inter national law....we could argue this for weeks, but the fact remains there are rules for everyone, do the follow them is another question. The fact that Afgha pres has already told these firms to get out is a sign of their future.....in afghan atleast.

Well the title of the OP is the Canadian Afghanistan expedition, And while alot of your opinion is global and while it does have a small reflection on how the Canadian mission went it was not the main topic of debate....Most of the posters here have said that the Canadian side of the mission is a failure, a waste of time ,blood and funding. That nothing was accomplished , and what was , did not go far enough. the foundation and framing as you put it was as good as one could get. When you put into context with the countries history, and political , and tribal make up. lets not forget that the Afghan people voted in the man they have now, he was not installed by NATO or the US government as most on this board have said....That in Afghanistan was a huge victory considering the make up of it's political system, and players...It gave back to the Afghanistan people the vote....a powerful thing if you have not had one in over 30 years. Many other projects were started to improve education, infra structure to improve trade, basic services that we take for granted, such as power, heat, lights, sewage, farming canels for water to grow crops....the country had been savaged by 30 plus years of war....it had nothing....it was Canada back in the 1700's....and while it is far from our standards here in Canada today, there has been massive improvements....How that can be a failure is beyond me.....But then again today Canada is a fast food people they want everything in 5 mins or less or it is a waste of time.....Afghanistan has it's own time table, and you can't change that. Do i agree that there was to few troops and resources deployed, NO,the Military did everything it could to maintain the small force we could deply....... Did Canada do everything it could no it did not, nor will it ever do as much as we can, in fact every nation wants to cash out on peace dividends military power is not a primary issue..... at our hieght there was over 3600 CDN troops on operations, plus limited UN and other NATO taskings.....Nobody was left during 2002, 2008.....you we either training to go on operations or on operations....and rarely did we complain, and when some did they were told by Canadians to shut the F up....we don't pay you to complain....a week ago we had a dress uniform inspection with medals, i was looking around, i have 3 tours in Afghan, each tougher than the next, but i seen guys with 4,5,6,7,8 tours, not sure if Canadians relieze the sacrafice it means just in the family sense, you spend a full year training then cbt for 6 to 7 months,and if you were lucky then 6 months to repair your family dynamics, then start it all over again if you were not lucky well once you got back you started training once again to enter the cycle.... To me this said alot of things, our commitment to our country, unit, and our jobs.....that family always placed a second place....and that while our government was aware of the problem of burning out it's soldiers, it was unwilling to spend the funding to increase our size, nor was it willing to equip us with the equipment we really needed nor where they willing to decrease the size of our commitment......and while i piont the finger at the government , the Canadian people do not have the will to spend money on it's military either.... This is not just a Canadian problem it was all through NATO, uncluding the US, which as large as their military is was having the same problems it's soldiers were doing multi tours and were facing fatige.... There are alot of things that made the war drag on, but i think the biggest one was the lack of support from the people....had the support ben there then the resources would have flowed in non stop, Again not only a Canadian issue but globally, nobody had the time to complete afghanistan in the way everyone evisioned it.. I've said this a thousand times, and we all piont to the US , and their 2 wars going on at the same time.....that is bullshit....If the people wanted this war finished then ALL of NATO could have stepped up with men, machines, and funding and turned this around....But they did not.....we can piont our fingers at the government but they do not do anything with out our approval.....if they want to get re elected.... You say the benifits do not out wiegh the costs, well that would depend on what price you pay for freedom, the ability to vote and chose your government, the price of education, establishing trade, what costs are you will to put to those values....we take for granted in this country the ability to chose our jobs, how we provide for our family,what we provide our family with, what price do we put on these values....Canada made a commitment to Afghanistan, and we broke that commitment, because we got tired of paying the price....but what is the price....

Yes it is true some Canadian soldiers have gone over to the private sector,and yes they are paid very well, but one also needs to have some serious skills and most soldiers do not have them....And those that do have them are not really interested in working for companies like black water or the others.....when you compare the amount that served over in Afghan as volunteers with the smaller pay check you'll see the private sector really did not have much of an effect on regular force numbers....Having a larger pay check is nice.... everyone is human....but money was not a huge issue for those that served....there were other factors as well... As for them staying and taking over the security work, maybe for a while but why pay a western merc all that and a bag of chips when you can hire a small army of locals to do the same thing for a fraction of the cost.

There are alot of reasons, Gen Leslie had alot of extra responsabilites one of them was to entertain at his home, even work for from home at times with his staff. his last home was probably chosen for these factors, now that he is retired he will not be expected to host parties get togethers , entertain foreign military members etc etc the list goes on. This is very common from the rank of LCol and above. It should also be noted that a large portion of these extra expences are out of their pockets. With retirement , he no longer needs room for all these things, and downsized or found a home with a better lay out. This made the Media because of his high profile, but this happens all the time in the forces, OK not with million dollar homes. but i don't think it is immoral....

A great acticle that lays both sides of the story out and allows the reader to decide "was it worth it"..... http://www.journal.dnd.ca/vol14/no1/page19-eng.asp I can't speak for anyone else but me, the whole Afghanistan experience was worth it, and i think our Nations involvment has paid dividends to both nations. As for other soldiers, well i say that their actions speak volumes, most have multi tours, each one they had to stick their hands up and say YES i'll go over once again. these soldiers are not combat junkies, most have families of their own, with much to lose, including their lives. they are Canadian citizens just like the rest of us, to bad their word is fallen on deaf ears. We may have not created the garden of eden over there, but we did leave it in much better condition then when we arrived.

How did we punch above our weight ?