Goddess

You know that Muslims have been killing and fighting each other for centuries, right?

Oh, okay. It certainly couldn't have anything at all to do with what they read in the Koran.

Seriously? You truly believe that ISIS gets AT LEAST HALF of its recruiting material from forums?

Sorry....made me chuckle.

This is the first time I've heard that most of ISIS is not Muslim.....

False dilemma. They have more choices than just those two.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/united-airlines-ceo-apologizes-dragging-kentucky-doctor-flight-n745161 From the article:

That point is NOT neglected. It's used to justify every terrorist attack and is reported as such. People just aren't buying it anymore. http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/world/salman-abedi-wanted-revenge-for-us-air-strikes-in-syria-manchester-bombers-sister-says/ar-BBBvj36?li=AAggNb9 His sister says he did this in retaliation of the US air strikes in Syria which killed 4 children. (Whether that's true or not has not been verified yet) How does this make sense to you? 4 children were killed unintentionally in US air strikes IN A WAR ZONE, so he goes and bombs children in Manchester England, INTENTIONALLY and NOT IN A WAR ZONE. I shake my head at how you and others here feel the Manchester bombing was justified. Just sick.

You speak for ISIS, do you?

I believe Islam is both a political AND a religious ideology. Terrorists are championing the political ideology and "moderates" are championing the religious end of things - demanding no pork products in school cafeterias, segregation of women and men in various institutions, wanting separate Sharia courts, etc. - all the while expressing no tolerance for other beliefs. They work hand-in-hand, towards the same goal. They just have different methods. But Islam, the religion, is at the root of it all. I don't understand how you can separate the two. There are probably many many Muslims who fall somewhere in between, but they seem content to just close their eyes and ears and insist that none of it has anything to do with Islam at all. Almost like they don't really care which political ideology wins out - if radical Islam wins out, they will come out on top because governments and religion will all be Islamic. (I don't think they fully understand the slippery slope of that, since Islam doesn't have any main doctrine and Islamic governments are free to interpret and impose the religious doctrines however they want to). And if Western philosophies win out, well......they reap the benefits of that too. I disagree that anything the "West' has done makes them entirely responsible for the mess Islam is today. I believe the religion and its adherants also bear responsibility for it. Some here keep saying that its the West promoting radical Islamic terrorism and playing into its' hands by reporting on what it's doing. Do you not see how individual Muslims also promote and play into its' hands? No, instead you lambast anyone who points this out, as has been done to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I'm positive the islamic concept of "ummah" causes some cognitive dissonance amongst some Muslims.

I agree with some of your points. I really don't understand the desperate need to divorce the religion from what is being done in its name all over the world. When a woman says she is not forced to wear the hijab, we are told to take her at her word, otherwise we are Islamophobes. But when terrorists say they do it in the name of Islam, we are told to NOT take them at their word, otherwise we are Islamophobes. I don't think they can have their cake and eat it too here.

I think for me the issue is: What is considered a "moderate" Muslim? Advocates of Islam insist that Muslims can hold extreme views but AS LONG AS THEY DON'T ACT ON THOSE VIEWS, they are considered "moderate". Those same advocates insist that Christians who hold extreme views but DO NOT ACT ON THEM, these ones are considered extremists. I think we all agree that the ones who ACTUALLY DO the stonings, beheadings, burnings, killings are extremists. But what about all the ones who stand around watching, cheering, bringing the family along to see, taking pictures of such things? I consider those people extremist, too. But advocates of Islam do not consider these ones extremist in any way, shape or form. They insist they leave these views at the airport when they get here. I consider a man who insists that his wife never leave the house, and if she has to, requires her to cover up and not look at anyone....I think that's an extremist. Others here disagree. It just seems to me that a "moderate" Muslim has to mean more than just "He didn't kill anyone today." To me, walking around with this type of hatred - against women, gays, Western society - is like walking around with a loaded gun....at some point you're going to point it at someone you feel is deserving and open fire. This is not the same as when people get stressed or are rushing and occasionally lose patience with others.

My sister was in a violent relationship for about 8 years. Her husband (at the time) used to say to say that it was HER who started some of the fights and HER who threw the first punch. This was probably true part of the times. They were pretty dysfunctional. The difference though, was that he weighed at least twice what she did. During the relationship, he broke her wrist, her ankle, her ribs, her eardrum, and knocked her right out many times. While he never went to the ER once. I imagine this is why weight classes were invented in sports. She has not been violent in any subsequent relationship while he now beats on his next wife. I guess I don't believe either gender should have free reign to hit the other. But generally men are bigger and stronger and can do more damage. The potential to kill a woman in a physical fight is higher, I think.

Then it won't surprise you that your hatred of me comes as absolutely no surprise to me. Part for the course when it comes to Muslims.

I don't care where the labelling started, you choose to participate in it. That's where you lost my respect. i don't applaud anyone who insults you or anyone else, the same as I don't applaud you when you do it. I think I've generally handled the likes of hot enough, Altai, and other offensive posters here, in a respectful (but firm) way. If I've failed to chastise someone here to the extent that you prefer, well......tough beans.

I've never labelled YOU anything. You, however, love to label others. Again, I "get" that you think Islam is all "peace and love and rainbows and unicorns" and that the extremists in the religion are so few that it is barely worth mentioning. I'm happy that your experiene with the religion has been lovely and inspiring. I am open (very open) to meeting Muslims who subscribe to your version of Islam. What you don't "get" is that I have not met one - not even one - who personifies the beliefs you say they have. And I lived in a neighborhood with high population of Muslims, dealt with them at every job I've had in that town and interacted with them on the internet. I'm sorry, but NO. The majority are not about "peace, love, rainbows and unicons." The majority I've met HATE women with such an intensity that it affects how they treat Western women. I do not do that to them. I have never done anything even remotely to them like they have done to me. So take your label and stuff it. Take your excuses for how they act and stuff that too.

Ripping out fingernails and murdering people is official Western policy, is it? Funny, because I've never done those things, nor do I know anyone who has, nor am I aware of anyone I know promoting such things. My sphincter works fine. Thank you for asking.

Yeah, I noticed that too.....Yet if I point out that in general, followers and lovers of Islam seem to also love violence, revenge and hatred, the same ones label me an Islamophobe.

I can't say I've changed my mind, but in 4322 posts I have a clearer understanding of some of the issues. To me, the purpose of debate isn't to change anyone else's mind (although if they do, that is fine). The purpose is to better understand where everyone else is coming from. I may not fully agree with other's opinions but that doesn't mean they don't make some valid points.

Yet, this is exactly what you constantly insist Westerners do about Muslim violence, intolerance and bigotry......

** starts the slow clap **

http://www.cjnews.com/news/canada/jews-single-most-targeted-group-toronto-hate-crimes I wonder why Jews are targetted way out of proportion to their numbers......hmmmmm??

They don't believe there is any "continuing acts of terrorism, violence and intolerance" in the Muslim world. It's all invented by the Western media, dont' you know? All other religions are doing exactly the same things to the same extent, it's just not being reported by the media, don't you know?