Goddess

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/10716844/Islamic-law-is-adopted-by-British-legal-chiefs.html

I asked you before what you are doing about all the hypocrisy you see, but you refused to answer. I actually work and volunteer for many of the causes that concern me. What do you do, besides bnaging out insults on an internet forum?

No. I just don't agree that Islam gets a "pass" for what they are doing or that Western civilization is the true evil in the world or that anythign justifies the terrorism going on. Which of course, you and others feel is "overblown" and deserved.

I don't consider them "rabid Muslim haters", no. They don't agree with the religion, they don't agree with legitimizing archaic and barbaric religious beliefs, they don't agree with importing a culture that is diametrically opposed to Canadian values, and they have concerns that what is happening in Europe will happen here, and that, in your mind and Dialamah's, makes them "rabid Muslim haters." If these ones were shooting up mosques, ripping off hijabs and screaming at random Muslims to "Go Home!", I could go along with "rabid Muslim haters". But I only see what they think here, while they are trying to discuss a certain aspect of islam. But unlike you and Dialamah, I make no judgments on what their lives are like outside of this forum and outside fo this topic. What you see here is just people discussing a certain toppic, and it's not enough to make judgments about the kind of people they are.

It was either Sweden or Denmark (maybe Norway, I'll have to check when I get home) who recently changed their laws to make it more difficult for Msulims to bring over child brides and arranged marriage brides, which has also made it more difficult for the natural born citizens to marry foreigners. The reports that say what's going on in Europe, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, etc.is overblown are far fewer than the reports that say otherwise. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say you'll believe the few reports over the many others and the laws that have been changed and the problems they are experiencing becasue of Muslim immigration. Becasue you previously felt that Lara Logan is a liar because a Muslim said they saw her earlier that evening and she seemed to be fine, so she was clearly lying about the rapes.

What?

How would you know if it had? (Hint: you might have to read something "not so flattering" to Islam to find out whether what you just posted is true or not)

No, I have not neglected other groups who do this. Hello? I firiggin left a group who was like this and I have no problem at all talking to others about what I know. I worked for many years with ones who also wanted to leave the religion. I hate the burka and all it represents. Of course to you and the other pro-Islam crowd here, that will just not do. Hating the burka = hating Muslims in your minds. Because we must all love, tolerate, accept and most of all - respect - Islam. Sorrynotsorry, but I don't love and respect Islam. To me, if your'e going to have a religion, it should make you a better person. I don't see this in Islam. I didn't see it amongst the JWs. I think most people who are good, are good becasue that's just how they are. And some people are good IN SPITE OF their religion. I'm sure there are Muslims who fall into this category - I just haven't met any yet. Edit to add: 9/11, nanothermite, the evil West, USA is Satan, not all Muslims are bad, but all white people are, etc, etc, and whatever else you think should mentioned in conjuction with this post.

It doesn't matter that it's "normal" where they are. This is not how "normal" women choose to live. The only women who "want" to dress like this are abused women - religiously abused, domestically abused. No one in their right mind would "choose" this freely. Really? Muslim women in Canada are not demanded to wear it? Yet we legitimize it by enshrining it in our laws. As I said, I'm not for banning the burka/niqab. But I am definitely for not legitimizing it. You over-simplify the situation when you say that women will just see that in Canada they don't have to wear it and throw their burkas in the streets. No. You have no idea (or just don't care) about difficult that would be for someone to abandon a cherished religious belief, knowing they will lose everything - family, freinds - when they do. There is almost a de-programming that needs to take place. For women who are forced to wear this - and you all can deny it all you want but there are many women in Canada who are forced to wear it - it's not so easy to just shrug off the garment. Which is why legitimizing it in no way helps. Again, I'm not saying it should to be banned, but we really need to stop legitimizing wonky religious beliefs in Canada. Where did I say I was trying to "save" these women? I agreed with you that you cannot save someone who is not ready or able to be saved. I also offer them something different by example and education. The difference between us is that while you SAY you are against burkas, you at the same time want them legitimized and accepted as normal in our society. Which is why you argue so vehemently for all things Islam. When we change our laws to allow niqabs at the citizenship oath, while not allowing others to wear headgear, when our PM goes to a mosque with radical ties and makes women MPs cover up, use the side entrance and sit segregated from the men, when we adopt this headgear that denigrates women into our RCMP, it legitimizes this. It's called creeping Sharia and Europe is suffering for it. Why do you think it will be different here? What makes Canada so special?

Yet here you are - doing just that. Yes. No one goes through all the things associated with leaving a cherished belief system until they're ready and able to withstand everything that goes with it. Do you think telling women that it is normal and acceptable in Canada to be covered all the time helps them leave behind religious and domestic abuse or hinders? Do you think Trudeau going to a radical mosque and making women MPs use the side entrance, cover up and sit away from the men helps or hinders? I'm awfully surprised that you feel "going along with" and accepting archaic religious beliefs as normal is a great thing for Canada. I'm not "for" banning the burka but I am for not making out like it's a great thing or even normal and acceptable for the human race. You can continue to support it if you like. I do not.

Don't ever tell me this is normal and acceptable.

Since you brought up, yes I used to be a JW. And yes, I left the religion. So I understand what is involved with going against one's religion and culture. You and Dialamah think it's soooooo easy! You think once these women get to Canada, they'll buck the system and just quit wearing their burkas and niqabs. No, darling. It's not that easy. I know what it's like to buck the system and have to leave in the night with only a few dollars in an envelope and what you can carry in your car. To leave without your child in order to make a better life for them. To leave without a friend or family member for support. I know how hard it is to try and make new friends after being told that worldly people don't love others or look after others and you distrust the whole world. I know what it's like to have no family, as in - none. It's not as easy peasy lemon squeezy as you portray. More like difficult difficult lemon difficult. And let me tell you, some of my hardest most stressful times came when well-meaning people like you, who had absolutely no friggin clue about all the psychological mind manipulations that went on in the religion, made comments about how "normal" the JWs are and how wonderful the religion is "So devout and morally superior in this day and age!" I don't think making out like women having to cover themselves in reams of cloth to hide their dirty filthy whore bodies is a normal, acceptable cultural trait, helps women at all. Are there Muslim women who burka-up freely out of choice? Of course there are. But to assume they all have "chosen" this, is dead wrong and is Islamic propaganda just the same as the JW propaganda that kept me enslaved. You do a great disservice to the millions of women around the world who are beaten and killed over the burka issue when you pretend this is a normal and acceptable thing to do to women. How disappointed the woman must be who longs for the freedom of Canada to shed the bulky fabrics and feel the sun on her face and the wind in her hair, the woman who has the courage and strength to buck a religion, a culture, lose all their family and friends....only to be met by people like you, telling her it's normal and acceptable for her to be covered at all times. This is religious and domestic abuse right in your face. And you support it by poo-pooing it as nothing.

I can tell you this for sure - seeing those Muslims and reading what they wrote to that young Israeli girl was eye-opening for me. I never expected to see that in Canada. And yes, I have worked at places where I do not see people at their best - doctors, lawyers. I accept that as part of my work and have been complimented many times on my patience and kindness in explaining the medical or legal system to people who are in pain, scared and don't know how things work. I have been able to talk people down from these situations. But not the Muslims - they invariably react violently when they are not given exactly what they want, at the exact time they want it, in the exact manner they want it. I don't know if this is because they feel all Westerners are kafirs and treat us accordingly or it's because I'm a woman in a position of authority over them and they REALLY REALLY resent that. I dont' really care what their reasons are for treating Westerners this way. I'm just saying your synopsis of what mainstream Muslims believe is sorely lacking a dose of reality. Yes, I am wary around them - when I have to tell them, "No, you're 4 hours late for your doctor's appointment and now you will have to re-book" I know it's going to be a bad time for me, I will be screamed at, bullied, have things thrown at me. When I hand them free food tickets and they slap my hand because I dared to hand them to the woman and not the 6 year old boy, yes I'm wary of even being kind to them. Getting back to the OP - it's not the hijab itself that I don't care for - it's the attitudes that go with it. It's those attittudes that make them not very nice people to be around.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but Dialamah and her family believe there are very few extremists and that they pose no danger, we should have no fear of extremists. So why would a Muslim worry about that? If I said I worried about an extremist Islamic government taking over a country, I'd be labelled an Islamophobe. Is it a rational fear or not? Or are only Muslims allowed to worry about it? If you worry about it and you're not a Muslim, you're an Islamophobe?

I've never understood that, either. Paying interest is forbidden, but collecting it is fine. Seems rather convenient to me.

Why would he be worried about that? I understand that there are very few extremists in the religion, Does that fear make him an Islamophobe?

It's a great list of values, but I don't see these things in "mainstream" Islam. That is not to say that some individual Muslims do nto believe these things, but I don't believe it is as mainstream as you think. For instance, I've read articles about the multiple wives being brought here and living off of welfare. And when I worked for the lawyer, one of our clients was a low-income housing company for whom we would try to re-coup refusals to pay rent, and the largest portion of these were Muslims, who basically laughed in our faces, knowing they could not be removed easily from a property, especially when they had 8 kids and it was the middle of January. So, no....I don't believe "taking care of one's family" is a mainstream islamic belief. this is in Canada. "Protect human life" - Yeah, no...I watched as an on-line group of Muslims tore an Israeli girl to shreds - yes, they absoutely DO think Jews are not human. And not one of the 30 or so who piled on her, describing to her how she should die in the most revolting of terms, stopped their fellow Muslims from the attack. I saw exactly what they think of Jews and Westerners. This is in Canada. As far as the Eid sacrifices - I understand Paris had asked last year for Muslims to not slaughter animals in tthe streets, not sure how that went over. While Muslims insist animals are slaughtered humanely, there have been many, many reports that show otherwise. Yes, we also slaughter animals for food and yes, there are sometimes slaughterhouses with violations. I think there's a difference between factory farming and ritualistic, mass slaughter of animals in the streets in the name of a religion - it is not a necessary thing. The sole basis of Islam is to get non-Muslims to submit to Muslim preferences - workplace and schools have to set aside time and rooms for a multitude of daily prayers, sexually segregating public places, burkas and niqabs, slaughtering animals in the streets, allowing multiple wives to collect welfare, turning aside and saying nothing when we see women being forced to wear burkas and not leave the house - we've accomodated it all, have we not? What is the benefit to our society in accomodating these things? And where does it end? What is the fascination with Canada becoming like a ME country? Why do we have to adopt Muslim ways? Some here feel that we should accomodate everything Islam and tolerate/live with/shut up about anything we don't agree with.

This is not true. A large portion of it deals with kafirs and how to treat them. How to get non-Muslims to submit to Islamic preferences. Thus, demands for prayer rooms and time for prayers at workplaces and school, demands for sexually segregated times for everything, demands to wear burkas at inappropriate times, etc. This is Sharia law implemented. When Trudeau visited the mosque and demanded that women MPs cover up and use the side entrance - Sharia law implemented.

Yup. Maybe that's why I like her. We shun-ees need to stick together.

Sabrina Jalees is pretty funny.

When I was first learning Spanish, I had a few funny times - I once told a waiter, "Buenos naches." thinking I was saying "Good Night!" but I found out that "naches" is a slang term for the derriere. "Noches" is night. I had told him he had a nice bum. I used to work with 2 Newfie ladies and whent hey got together no one could understand what they were saying. LOL I love language.

Not entirely true. You cannot wear a balaclava into a bank. You cannot wear a balaclava while taking the citizenship oath. That being said, if there are more attacks like the woman in Toronto, I can see them instituting a burka ban. There's no way of knowing WHO is under there and no way of knowing if they are concealing weapons.

I would agree with you except for the fact that those who require and enforce the headcoverings are very willing for that to be the hill they die on. In addition, anyone who requires and enforces this or insists on wearing it when it's not appropriate, it is indicative of many unacceptable attitudes about and towards women. The men who demand it treat Western women with utter hatred and violence. The women who demand it are (I feel) a bit envious of women who are not required to wear it and look down on them and treat Western women badly as well. This is how these archaic beliefs translate into everyday life for Canadians. The other issue I have with them is that those who wear especially the full face-coverings - it is a HUGE impediment to integrating. Partly because they are also the women who are rarely allowed to leave their own homes - even in Canada. Other women do not feel burka'ed women are approachable, so when everyone's taking their children to the park to play, the burka'ed women are often left out of socializing, which also shuts down integrating.

I don't think it's about feeling "threatened". As I've posted before, I think it's more out of concern. It's uncomfortable to see women so beaten down - religiously or in their domestic situations - that they feel they must express outwardly and apologetically that they are inferior beings. Both are abuse - religious abuse or domestic abuse. And I feel that just because a woman participates in her own abuse, it doesn't make it okay. It's like seeing a woman walking around with bruises and black eyes and the crap beaten out of her. It's uncomfortable, not threatening. These things are worn to outwardly show everyone else their political and/or religious leanings. Western culture is that we are suspicious of anyone who hides what they are and we place a lot of importance on the abillity to read and see someone's face (this is actually a "human" trait, which is another reason why the burkas make people in general uncomfortable.) Tolerance goes both ways, and it would be nice to see some tolerance and understanding from Muslims towards Westerners. Are the Hutterites also on a world-wide terrorism rampage? This is the first I've heard of it?