Goddess

I was a born-in JW. Third generation.

I agree with nearly everything you said. You might find this interesting, as I did. I had no idea of it when I was a JW and it greatly disturbed me when I found out about it. It was just one of many discoveries that prompted me to leave the religion. https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php I'm not trying to minimize the Holocaust or deny that JW'S also were persecuted by the Nazis. Just some additional information.

I think ISIS does it because it stirs up anti-Muslim sentiment. Because then ISIS can say to Muslims, "See? Look how the West hates us!!" and Voila!! Fresh recruits to the cause.

HahaHa! FYI: they don't like being tickled when they come to your door.

LOL Really? I'm not doubting you because I can totally see some of them doing that, but it would be a personal thing, not ordered by the old white guys in NY. Still LOL'ing

But how are they "Islamic" values when it's mainly Western countries practicing them? It seems to me that he is appropriating Western values and claiming them as exclusively Islamic, yet at the same time saying the majority of Muslim countries do not practice Islamic values......the more I think about it, it's a very odd article. I think he did the opposite - he just showed that Islamic values are actually very different than Western values. He's saying "These are Islamic values, although they are not practiced by Muslims, they are practiced by Westerners." Very odd.

A closer read answered my own question, haha His reasoning is kinda weird and circular - Islamic countries are not practicing true Islam, but the West is....which to me..... would make those Western values....but he is saying they are not....??

Interesting article. I forwarded it to a friend in Ireland, waiting to hear her thoughts too Why do they have to be called "Islamic" values? Most of the values that religions say are exclusive to them, I feel really are not. They are human values. What makes "opportunity and justice" Islamic values and not Christian or human or Irish values? Can we really say these are "Islamic" values when, as the article points out, the majority of Muslim countries do not value them?

True, my primary exposure to Muslims has probably not been the more educated or progressive ones. I have never doubted you that they are out there.....but I do doubt your assertion that the vast majority of them are tolerant and peaceful. Not just because of my own experiences but because of everything that is going on with the religion lately. Why can't we bring in more educated and progressive Muslims? Why do we have to take all the ones who have values that are not just different from ours but outright hostile to our own values?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-jehovahs-witnesses-ban-extremists-religion-christian-sect-vladimir-putin-supreme-court-a7693671.html?amp I also read somewhere that in 2009, the laws were changed in Russia so that proselytizing outside of churches was forbidden. The JW's in Russia would have ignored this, as they believe the door-to-door work is mandatory and you can't be saved if you don't do it. They even changed their own internal rules about 10 years ago so that the elderly or disabled can report a minimum of 15 minutes of proselytizing to be considered an "active" JW and not lose out on salvation. I'm not sure I agree with banning them, the same as I wouldn't support a ban on Islam, but some of their teachings and requirements are not exactly benign - refusals of blood transfusions even for minor children, the requirement of shunning even family members and the constant instruction to not be freinds with anyone considered "worldly". Women are to be in submission, although wife-beating is frowned upon. Wives who are victims of domestic abuse are counseled to be in submission and try not to anger their husbands and are told that divorce/seperation is only an option if they really feel their life is in danger or if the husband is requiring them to stop attending in meetings and participating in the door-to-door work. That being said, they do preach that only they have The Truth, all other religions are false religion and everyone who is not a JW will be destroyed by God at Armageddon, including all governments.

And according to a Muslim patient we had, who was very brave to be honest with me while explaining why other Muslims were constantly lying to us at the clinic, you and your brother are wrong.

I'm not sure if the Royal Commission investigations had much, if anything, to do with the banning in Russia. They are using anti-extremist laws to ban them. I'm guessing, based on past legal battles in various countries, that the JW's will fight this to the death. They have a lot of resources - it's basically nothing more than a "book publishing real estate company" masquerading as a religion and they are quite wealthy in other parts of the world, being based and originating in the US. They have a very large and powerful legal department to fight these battles. Since their property in Russia was also confiscated by the government, they will have to use funds from the US to fight this. Remember that next time they ask for a "donation" for their magazines.....a lot of that money is going to hush up child sexual abuse (an investigation in the US revealed tens of millions have been paid out to make court cases disappear and they always ask for a gag order on the victim, too) and fight these kinds of governmental interference.

Another interesting thing: I was a JW when the paedophole scandals with the Catholic Church were going on, and the JW's used this to "prove" that Catholics were a false religion. Now that it's happening to them, of course, it's just "human imperfection".

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/russia-jehovahs-witnesses-ban-extremists-religion-christian-sect-vladimir-putin-supreme-court-a7693671.html The JW's were banned in Russia for a long time, but were finally given legal status in Russia (I think in the 80's??). Since then, Russia has tried many times to ban them but it looks like they finally did - using anti-extremist laws. While I'm not a fan of the JW's and believe it is a harmful cult, I'm not sure I agree with banning them. At the same time, I feel their "charitable organization" status should be revoked in EVERY country, as they do absolutely nothing charitable. In the last couple of years, the JW's have been the focus of Royal Commission investigations in Commonwealth countries, the one in Austrralia did not go very well for them - the Commission found over 1000 cases of unreported child molestation. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2016/nov/28/jehovahs-witnesses-did-not-protect-children-from-abuse-inquiry-finds Shortly after this, the British Royal Commission launched an investigation. In the US, they generally pay off people who try to sue them over child abuse, but Candace Conti won a $28 million dollar case against them. They have gradually whittled that amount down through the appeals process. But Candace was one of the first to refuse the "hush money" and wanted what they were doing to be exposed. https://www.revealnews.org/article/jehovahs-witnesses-use-1st-amendment-to-hide-child-sex-abuse-claims/ Banning them only feeds into their persecution complex and convinces them that they are (as they put it) "The Truth".

This is the issue for me too - how those religious beliefs translate into everyday life. Someone who has been taught from infancy that women are to be in submission to men, be covered at all times or else they are whores, etc.......that translates into how they treat Canadian women when they get here. That means they treat the female bank teller, female service person, female coworker, really any female they meet is treated very badly. Same for homosexuals. It's not just that they hate women or gays, they really feel they need to die. Now. Families that have been here for decades but still believe in honor killings, have killed their girls while in Canada. They are not allowed by their own communities/families to assimilate. They self-segregate into neighborhoods, mosques and cultural group gatherings that continue to fuel these religious beliefs. I know not all who believe in Islam will do these things, but the underlying thinking doesn't seem to change once they arrive in Canada. I'm sorry, but I lived in a high Muslim population neighborhood and I am extremely happy to have gotten out of there. I don't think the politicians even have a clue as to what they are foisting on the Canadian people. It's not Sophie Gregoire-Trudeau who has to live next to the man who smacks his wife across the head every chance he gets. It's not Sophie Gregoire-Trudeau who has to serve or help a man who treats her like a piece of garbage. I don't think they have any clue about how those religious beliefs translate into everyday life for the average Canadian.

Haha, this made me smile. I had the same thing happen when I was in China. Not so much in the bigger cities like Beijing or Shanghai, but in the smaller towns. Everyone wants their picture taken with you or they hand you their babies to take pictures with. A lot of them asked if I was a celebrity. LOL

As I said, I've proven this to myself by many years of research. I did it because it was important to me to find out the truth. If you choose to not research the subject and prefer to acccept theistic evolution by "faith", that's your choice. But don't pick some vague FAQ and read into it what you want and then claim scientists "admit" that God is a "surety". That's not even close to what that says.

No. I'm admitting it's a possibility, but I do not see any evidence of it.

I already have. I take the evolutionary process over the talking snake theory. You started the thread. Support your claim that God directed evolution is accepted by the scientific community as a "surety".

Religious people: "God created everything just as it is now." Science people: "Here's all the proof of the evolutionary process." Religious people: "OK, well, God directed it though...." Science people: "We have no proof of that one way or the other, so....." **pats on the head** "Let's keep looking, shall we?"

You do realize that theistic evolution is not a SCIENTIFIC THEORY, right?

I view it more like: Not wanting to alienate God believers, hoping they'll continue to look at science further and in greater depth. I've read a lot about it, but I'm not an expert, as apparently you are: I don't see anything in what you've posted that is saying God is an "almost surety". I still think you're seeing what you want to see.

This wasn't a possibility before? Seems to me, it's always been a possibility - a miniscule one, but yes, a possibility. NAS acknowledging that it's fine if some people want to stick to a belief in God-directed evolution; seems more like a little pat on the head for creationists, like agreeing with and patting a child on the head who still believes in Santa.

I really think you're reading Waaaaay more into this than what they're saying...... it reflects the remarkable and inspiring character of the physical universe revealed by cosmology, paleontology, molecular biology, and many other scientific disciplines." Translation: The universe is remarkable and inspiring and may lead some to believe in a God-directed evolutionary process. It is not saying that without a doubt, God directed the process. It's just saying it's fine to believe that and such a belief is compatible with science at this time.