Goddess

Why not just leave it at that: ridiculous and despicable? Because you must "defend" Islam by trying to equate an entire country wanting to execute someone for making fun of Mohammed with a one-off situation that neither the country, nor the mainstream churches in the country would ever go along with. That's how you constantly "defend" Islam - by trying to make it seem like what Islamic countries are doing, is exactly like what is done in Canada. It's not. By trying to make it seem like what's happening there is Normal behaviour for an entire country. It's not. Just leave it at ridiculous and despicable.

Your comparisons of one-off cases are ridonkulous. If the entire country of Canada was rioting in the streets to have this transgender person brought out of hiding and killed publicly, then you could compare. If the Catholic church of Canada was applauding this transgender person getting death threats, then you could compare. The difference is that the entire country of Canada is not rioting to have this transgender person brought out of hiding and killed publicly. And the Christian community at large, does not applaud death threats to transgender people. You can't see the difference between "there are a few fundie nutjobs in every religion" and "here is a country filled with fundie nutjobs, who have the backing of the government and the people." You can't see it because in the end, it really doesn't matter what is done in the name of Islam, you defend it.

Just because the economic health of the hosting country is bullshit to you, doesn't mean it's not a rational consideration.

It's actually a pretty good site, but when i clicked on the hijb part, it's very pro-hijab. Empowering and freeing for women and all that.

That is the part that is sorely lacking, I feel. Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

I've already posted tons of links and info from people who know just as much as not more, that posits otherwise. You refused to read any of that, too. I read it all and I don't know one way or the other. And neither do you. So I go by 1. The history of the religion 2. How it currently operates in countries where it is majority 3. The actions, behaviours and attitudes it produces in its mainstream following. And that is why I lean towards the one I feel is more realistic at this time. It's probably one of the few times in my life that I have not completely accepted the "unicorns & rainbows" view of anything. Have a great Halloween - I'm dressed as a "granny on vacation" today

The problem is that to YOU - anything that doesn't flatter Islam is "demonizing Muslims". The other problem is that it is very easy for apologists, such as yourself, to pooh-pooh various individual examples of Muslim aggression and excuse them away. One by one, they are all explained and excused away by you - this person is a liar, that is a fake news report, those people are Islamophobes, tiny tiny minority, etc. etc. You refuse to see the bigger, world-wide picture. When you put all those individual examples from all over the world together, it's not so easy to explain and excuse away - unless you ignore the continual, increasing confrontation of Islam against the countries and people it did not conquer in earlier centuries of Muslim expansion. Islam does not forget what it believes is its greater mission. It unabashedly affirms that everyone should be Muslim. It does not hesitate to achieve this purpose anywhere it is not resisted. Terrorists are not some inexplicable fanatics acting for no conceivable reason - bombing, beheadings and trucks driven into crowds arises from a faithful reading of the Koran. They are not acting against Islam, they are acting for it and it's long-range mission. You can deny it all you want and castigate DoP for quoting the very passages that are being used to justify Islamic attacks, but that is a fact. You can deny that large portions of the world's Muslims agree with the passages all you want too - but that is also a fact. You are ignorant of any history of Islam, only basing your views on the emotional factor that your sister is converted to Islam and is now a Muslim. You have no more understanding of what Muslims truly believe or how they might act on that belief than anybody else. For that, we should be relying on the history of the religion, how it is currently being practiced in Muslim majority countries and how its followers act. You think Islam has reformed, but it has not. You think Islam has already been changed, into something it cannot be. What is happening is not Islam changing itself - what is happening is that it isolates itself into enclaves. It has learned to use democratic voting as effectively as it uses guns and bombs. Many, many Muslim leaders and followers have publicly stated that they are taking over gradually, with the help of demographics, one after another Western political system - country by country, city by city. Islam will be Islam for as long as the history of Muslim expansion is viewed by majority Muslims as definitive. So, in the end, we can agree to disagree about Islam and Muslim responsibility all we want. You interpret facts one way and I interpret them another. If the people, like myself, who are concerned about what we see happening in Islam, are wrong - it won't be for lack of Islam trying. If we're right, however - we already know what that future will look like.

Truck plows through a crowd - "He's just mentally ill, you're all racists if you think otherwise." Man beats his wife - "He didn't know it was wrong to beat your wife with a hockey stick for 1/2 hour." Man molests young girls at a waterpark - "Their stories weren't consistent, therefore he's innocent." Muslim leaders call for the death of Jews every year at Al Qud - "How dare you wonder why none of the Muslims at the event objected to it!! You f'in racist!!" Every terror attack - "It's the West's fault, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the religion." Don't agree with burkas? - "It's their choice to be treated like that. How dare you question their question their choice, you f'in racist!!" No go zones popping up in every country - "They dont' exist, it's just people demonizing Muslims." Anti-semitism on the rise, Jews leaving France in droves - "There's anti-semitism everywhere, so if you're worried about that you're a f'in racist!" Muslim Rape Game - "It doesnt' exist. Those women are liars."

Here's my post, without the links: Point out the "lies".

Yes, I do think moderates should be doing much more to combat extremism, as it is coming from within their own ranks. That doesn't mean that I "ignore everything they do". It just means that in this age of Islamic terrorism, I feel they should be the ones who are turning in imams and condemning these kinds of celebrations. Frankly, you are the one who is going against what a lot of moderates and progressive Muslims are saying - that other moderates need to speak up more. That's an unfortunate and unhelpful view and I really hope you are not speaking for all Muslims when you say this. I believe everyone - even Muslims - have a duty to speak up and not just sit back and say, "Meh....let other people handle it." The government can only deal with the effects of extremism. It is moderate Muslims and mostly their imams themselves who should be reasoning from the Koran with their mosque attenders to show the wrongness of such extreme views. Good grief, every influential moderate Muslim says the same thing - although I notice you frequently demand the direct opposite of what reformers say should happen. Maybe you should. Instead of ignoring them, making excuses for them and castigating everyone who sees that there are intolerant and hateful Muslims. I have never once said "All bad Muslims are representative of all other Muslims". Not once. But you continue to sling mud at anyone who sees that there are problems in Islam right now. Anti-semitism is growing in every country of the world. And many are connecting it to the migration of Muslim people - not that they are causing it, but that they are "awakening" the sleeping anti-semitism already present and emboldening others to the same. You can deny it all you want, refuse to read anything about what's going on in Europe. But you are wrong. Anti-semitism is growing and these Al Qud celebrations of hate fuel it further. I find it very odd that you continually have to make sure that no one here discusses these things, and if they dare to, you make sure you're here to sling the racist and Islamophobe mudballs until something sticks. Amazing how you see racism and prejudice against Muslim people in everything (who at 1.3 or 1.6 billion people are NOT a minority) but have excuse after excuse after excuse for Muslim intolerance and racism and hatred. In this case, your excuse is you don't like the way I presented the problem. Too bad for you, I don't care - you perceive anti-Muslim in pretty much everything anyone says. Unless it's praising Muslims. Nice distraction, though. Now no one will touch this issue of the hate-filled Al Qud celebrations in Canada now for fear you will latch onto them as a racist Islamophobe and follow them around the board, re-writing everything they say and demanding they not talk about Islamists unless they talk about <<insert Dia's favourite case of of the day here, anything, ANYTHING!! as long as we don't talk about Muslim extremism>>

It may not be its "stated" goal but that is exactly what it is. I wasn't making a comment on the Palestine/Gaza thing - I'm well aware that there are other people besides Muslims that support Palestine. There's a difference between supporting Palestine and calling for the death of all Jews. If you can read those articles (and others) about the Al Quds in Canada, and conclude that everything is fine, that says a lot about you - as I notice once again, when I bring up a problem you "pooh-pooh" my views as being racist and Islamophobic and only condemn me, not what is going on at these Al Qud celebrations. If Jews were having a celebration every year saying all Muslims must die and are not entitled to live on the planet, you'd be screaming with outrage. The Bnai Brith have been calling for an end to this annual hatefest in Canada for quite a while now. Are they also racist and Islamophobic? Or is it just everyone who dares to talk about the negative things done in Islam that is racist and Islamophobic to you? Maybe you better get on the phone with them and tell them how wrong they are for protesting this. Condemn them for condemning this, as you are now condemning me. As Rue says - go ahead and finish it. Write your representatives and let them know how completely out of line Bnai Brith is for spotlighting this problem. Yes, Dia, I'm well aware that there are moderate Muslims out there. My question is: Why is it not the moderate Muslims who are handling this issue? Why when that Sheihk calls for the death of Jews does the crowd of 400 people cheer? In Canada. Why it is the Bnai Brith leading the charge here and not moderate Muslims? Why is it rarely moderate Muslims that turn in imams that speak like this? You're the one who is always berating and censoring others here because the words we use are soooooo important and must be the exact "Dia Approved" words , yet when Muslims are doing this, suddenly the words they use are not as important to you......very hypocrite, much double standard. Are you going to pay for my travel and time to do that? Unless you can point out to me where I have continually made excuses for white supremacists, as you do for Islamists....... I'm condemning it now and you're here telling me I'm wrong for condemning it.

From some links on another thread, I just realized that what I witnessed a few years ago was probably this: https://www.bnaibrith.ca/sheikh_calls_for_eradication_of_israelis_at_toronto_al_quds_day_rally https://www.bnaibrith.ca/iran_issues The one I witnessed was absolutely a hatefest and I was stunned that nobody - nobody - said anything about it. Where are all the "moderate Muslims"? https://dianebederman.com/pm-trudeau-is-al-quds-day-compatible-with-the-west/

i do find that odd. I find that just as odd as you accepting Trump's hatreds and prejudices while saying "Good presidents are hard to find, especially ones chosen directly by God."

Edit: Weird double post

There must have been something to them, though,(??) because they detonated the one sent to Soros. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45949737

Do you think ISIS gives a crap that it could severely damage Islam's image? I'm not sure your reasoning there is completely sound enough to conclude that it could NOT be a Republican. I think it's too early to jump on any conspiracy trains.

I've heard similar problems from friends of mine and had similar experiences myself. It seems the only way to NOT oppress certain ones is to allow them their "right" to oppress others.

I disagree but only because of 2 things - there is only so much we can do for them. A lot of people in 3rd world countries have the amount of children they do because they are hoping that if they have 6 or 8 kids, maybe 4 or 5 will survive into adulthood and of those 4 or 5, hopefully 1 or 2 of them will look after the parents in their old age. There are no pensions or social welfare in those countries for them to rely on. So reality for them is that they need to have lots of children to ensure they are looked after in their old age. The difference is that when they immigrate to Western countries, the mentality that they must continually produce children doesn't change and in the West, large families are more of a hindrance, unless you're independently wealthy. But we solve that problem by making child-bearing a very lucrative pastime. More lucrative than learning the language, learning a new trade or skill or adapting to Canadian life. Which brings me to the second point: Unfortunately, the Catholic Church has stuck their nose into these countries and instructed them in the Catholic belief that birth control pills are from the Devil and you go to hell for using them and family planning is sinful. The Church (and other fundie groups, I'm sure) wont' let them have birth control pills. Add in the fact that in many of these countries, women's rights are non-existent and women are basically just chattel kept for breeding purposes.

I think the problem is some people have zero'ed in on the "Innocent until proven guilty" mantra put forth by the Republicans. Innocent Until Proven Guilty. Reasonable doubt. This is a fantastic standard in criminal cases. A necessary standard in a free nation. I'm a fan! However, people have been arguing that it is the only standard in all contexts at all times. Yeah...that's bullshit...as evidenced by fresh chants of LOCK HER UP at Trump rallies. This time, Feinstein, not Clinton is in their sights. This standard is for criminal prosecution. Only. Even in the courts. For instance, in civil trials, this standard is not used. Preponderance of the evidence is used. Pretty vague? Yep. It comes down to who a judge or jury decide best proved their case. There is no reasonable doubt standard nor innocent until proven guilty. But many Trump supporters are pretending it is also a cultural imperative. LOCK HER UP! That our very society rests on this standard. No it isn't and doesn't. Not even in the courts. Your kids are playing in the park. A strange man is staring at them. You get an instinctive feeling of danger. Do you tell yourself he is innocent until proven otherwise? Hopefully not. You make your children safe. Because you DO NOT live your life by that standard. No one does. How many careers or social lives have been destroyed in the past because of claims of homosexuality, or sexual promiscuity, or atheism, or any list of things people decide to be outraged about over the years. They were not operating under innocent until proven guilty, because we never have. So stop arguing that it is the foundation of our society. It is not, and never has been, and never will be. It is the standard for criminal trials. It is the highest standard in the land. And it's not even the standard for all trials. Only criminal trials.

Yes, you keep saying that. But where is the proof? Do you mean, "see it" like as in "imagine it"? Kavanaugh has his share of outlandish claims, all of which have been refuted by people who knew him at the time. https://www.gq.com/story/all-of-brett-kavanaughs-lies

Trump is the foretold Messiah. Wow.

Do you have proof of this? What was the payoff for Dr. Ford?

I love Rick Mercer.