Goddess

I don't find it to be an unnecessary law, because of the great potential for abuse. There is substantial evidence that polygamous marriages and burkas/niqabs have great potential for abuse and have been used extensively to abuse women. Maybe a law that restricts burka/niqab and hijab to a certain age group would be a compromise......when I see little girls - children - all shrouded up, unable to play with their peers.....it's abuse, IMO.

Just as the man has appointed himself as the parent of the woman, the one who knows best, who has the right and the responsibility to direct her behavior, so have we relegated women to a child-like state, in which we know what is best for her and will impose that on her, regardless of her preferences or situation. We've banned polygamous marriage, regardless of women's personal preferences or situations, or even if they say they "chose" it.

Telling women, whether they choose to cover their face or are required to by their family, that we will not tolerate them on our streets is not a very good model of either tolerance or belief in gender equality, in my opinion. (Quotes not working for me again. Hmmmm....) Perhaps that is the problem - you think we would be telling these women that THEY are "not welcome" on our streets. And that is false. They are VERY welcome on our streets. Come have a cup of coffee with us! Come bring your kid to playschool and visit the other moms! Come say hello to us in the grocery store! What is not welcome is the promotion of extreme and harmful political and religious beliefs that openly thumb their nose at our values. Again, I'm not FOR banning the burka, per se, but I am saying that it's the Islamist beliefs and conduct and the promotion of these that are not welcome, not they themselves. I disagree with you that we have to tolerate intolerance. And I disagree with you on another point - anyone who deliberately puts an actual physical curtain between themselves and society, does not get to whine about feeling "not welcome" in a society where such a thing is offensive to the majority.

And I have pointed out (although you refuse to read it) that the burka/niqab/hijab discussion should involve much more than just "fear and dislike" of them. That is a simplification with an insinuation of Islamophobia thrown in, designed to shut down the discussion. I have also tried to present my views fairly and reasonably. It's just frustrating when the discussion gets shut down with name-calling and and the whole thing is dismissed with "You're all a bunch of Islamophobes, that's the only reason you dislike burkas." or "We have to allow this as Canadians because one of our values is tolerance." or "They choose to wear it. End of story." We have other values which need to be respected by immigrants, as well.

Excuse me, but you flat out stated that the only reason people would be against burkas is fear and dislike. You have repeatedly (in the past) labeled anyone who disagrees with you a racist and Islamophobe. If this has changed for you, then I apologize. I'm going by your past comments.

You, Argus, Goddess, Turningrite et al. have all failed to provide one shred of evidence that banning of niqabs in Western countries provides any increased security for citizens, or that it helps Muslim women in Western countries escape or avoid oppression. If there was any evidence supporting these claims, somebody would have found it by now. (Quote function not working for me this morning) There are many more things to consider than security issues or helping Muslim women escape oppression. Those are only 2 factors to consider. Whether or not they "choose" to wear burkas is only the start of the inquiry. For you, of course, that is the end of the discussion and anyone who thinks otherwise is an Islamophobe. Any extreme form of conduct needs to be examined much more closely than you are willing to examine it. If their choice is fully free AND informed, then yes, it would be wrong to ban the burka. The evidence, however, points to oppression as at least one factor that influences women to wear it. It's a large factor, given that a 2003 French survey found that 77% of girls who wore hijabs did so under threat. It is very telling that 100% of the people who wear burkas and niqabs are women and that they all come from a culture that is extremely repressive to women. There is no reason why we should have to allow the same outcome in Western nations. People sometimes "choose" to sell themselves into slavery. That doesn't mean that we, as a society, should tolerate the practice. The West has every right to be uneasy about this garment, even if you feel it is only about racism and Islamophobia. IMO, it's entirely APPROPRIATE that Western countries seriously discuss whether we want to tolerate these things. We don't tolerate FGM, or Chinese foot binding or Muslim honour killings. It seems obvious to me that burkas and niqabs deserve the same serious consideration. The burka and niqab are NOT just a religious symbol. It's a political symbol, as are many aspects of Islam. Political symbols are the physical manifestation of political ideas and Islamists know this well. Will the West push back against this like we did with Protestant, Catholic and Mormon beliefs (was there ever any real empirical evidence that women did not "choose" to be in polygamous marriages?)? The freedoms and values that Canada has - equality, human rights, multiculturalism, democracy, freedom of expression - should not be abused by a twisted ideology. It's not just simply freedom to wear whatever you like. I feel bad for the moderate Muslims. If the West will not stand up against Islamist ideas with practical efforts and not just words, then why should they sacrifice themselves? (A moot argument for you, I'm aware, as you have repeatedly stated your view that moderate Muslims have no responsibility whatsoever to counter extremist Islamic views.) Islam is ideologically confident, and when you’re battling a culture like ours that’s filled with guilt and recriminations about its past, and self-doubt about it’s present, you actually end up looking fairly strong. Look at Nada Farooq, a Canadian student. Several years ago she started an Internet forum for Muslim teenagers in her area. During her trial (she and sixteen others had plans to blow up the Toronto Stock Exchange, seize Parliament and even kidnap and decapitate the PM) material was obtained and there was one thread where a poster thought it would be fun to to discuss what made Canada unique. Nada dumped on that quick: Who cares? We hate Canada You can’t blame her parents. Her dad was a pharmacist at a military base in Canada and said that he supports the Canadian forces in Afghanistan. After her terror cell was exposed, he told the media that his daughter’s views – hating Canada, in favour of shipping gays off to Saudi Arabia to be executed – were news to him. There’s a solid minority in that category throughout the West: “moderate Muslim” parents with kids raised in the West who become ferociously Islamist. Nada did not just give her natural Pakistani heritage and identity the boot, she rejected her thin, watery “multicultural”, apologetic-about-its-past Canadian identity too. She chose Islam, which transcends nationality, does not apologize for it’s past, and is confident about its future. By contrast, a large chunk of the West celebrates a cringing, self-absorbed, weak-willed culture that insists that we’re the problem. Maybe we should let businesses choose for themselves whether they will allow burkas and niqabs in their stores and shops......I think that would eliminate some of the issues we see.

Wrong. "Security risk" means anyone with their face covered in public. You glossed over that point before - just like motorcycle helmets and balaclavas are not allowed in certain areas. Security risk. I think it's natural to fear security risks. Yes. We dislike niqabs. They are the antithesis of everything we believe in. Or do you not agree with that? You are suggesting that we learn to love niqabs and think they're great and if we don't like them, then the problem is with US?? What is wrong with disliking niqabs? Tell us what you like about them, so we can all love them like you do. But again, my point was there IS a security risk in niqabs (You insist there is NO security risk) and it is not just "fear of women in veils" as you suggest. And it's more than dislike of them. There is no demonstrable value to society in niqabs. In fact, they are bad for society, as we can all see from 57 Muslim majority countries and their appalling record of women's rights.

I don't understand this. Why does the guy have to have some kind of "official" ties to ISIS to prove he was working for them? ISIS sent out a call to all it's followers to attack and in particular to attack Canada. This guy frequented their websites and responded to the call by conducting an attack. How is it not terrorism?

Roll your eyes all you want. It is a security issue. I know you'd love for it to be only about fear and dislike. But as Sapper dude pointed out, it's a symptom of a bigger problem, it's not racism or islamophobia on the part of Westerners. It's a societal view that is the antithesis of everything we stand for. You will also get a fine if you don't wear your seatbelt or smoke in a public place. Sometimes stupidity needs to be regulated. Or maybe, just maybe.....it's time for Muslim wants, desires and preferences to take the backseat to Western wants, desires and preferences and do some bending of its own instead of Westerners constantly having to bow and bend to what Muslims want.

Then why is there a requirement to remove motorcycle helmets, balaclavas and scarves that cover the face in banks, airports, government buildings, etc? All this time, I thought it was a security issue but I guess it's just that Westerners "fear and dislike" motorcycle helmets and balaclavas. https://www.khaleejtimes.com/international/pakistan/peshawar-university-attack-three-killed-at-least-5-wounded https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/incident-canadian-tire-rcmp-toronto-police-islamic-state-1.4147750

Which proves what I always say - Modesty is a quality of character. Not a garment you wear. Hijabs do not equal Modesty.

I imagine Christians from a Muslim culture would join a Christian church when they arrive in the West, and Muslims would join a mosque. Which one do you think would teach them our culture? I don't think it would be the mosque. http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-08-29/koran-434-islam-domestic-violence/10112916 People are more likely to let cultural beliefs and traditions go or be relegated to a lesser place when they are no longer immersed in that culture. Religious beliefs and traditions are usually more deeply entrenched and much more difficult to break free from. I'm not confident in view of the article above that Muslims coming to the West and joining a mosque would be given Western instructions on how to treat women. All over the world I see a lot of organizations trying to get Westerners to view Islam in a romanticized way, while there are very few efforts to get Muslims to adopt any Western ways.

You are soooooo quick to judge my motives and determined to paint me as a racist and Islamophobe that you fail to read what is written. My first sentence made it clear who I was referring to - extreme misogynists. Or are you now denying that there is extreme misogyny in Islam?

It's women in Canada that bear the brunt of the extreme misogyny we are importing. They don't like being told "No" by a woman and don't see why they can't physically assault women who do.

I think the concern is that we were told these people were vetted before they were allowed in. Clearly that is not the case. Very sad that you're trying to make out that this is a Muslim-bashing thing.

https://www.therebel.media/syrian_refugee_charged_in_murder_of_13_year_old_marrisa_shen_but_only_islamophobes_worry_about_canada_s_lax_security_screening Only been here 3 months........

It's the general consensus of many regarding his policies and what he wants to accomplish in Canada. https://torontosun.com/2016/09/14/trudeau-says-canada-has-no-core-identity/wcm/60461a6d-7cb4-42a9-b242-05be9aaea46c

http://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/trump-warns-he-could-cause-the-‘ruination’-of-canada/ar-BBN1iZn?li=AAggNb9 Why is Trudeau holding out on the "cultural exemption"? He has repeatedly stated his belief that Canada has no culture and nothing worth preserving.

At least it prompted some action on the part of the government, even if these 2 sickos basically got away with it.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of crazy and violent earthlings, so your utopia (while a lovely thought) isn't very practical at this point in time.

It's a problem in other countries, too. https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/709345/Muslims-urged-not-to-SLAUGHTER-ANIMALS-in-the-streets-of-France-at-Eid-al-Adha http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6100597/Back-garden-butchers-Hygiene-probe-family-hack-animal-carcasses-Eid-East-London.html

You're the only one who has called me out on anything whose opinion I respect. (In spite of the snark on both our parts.) You have a great weekend, too.

You know you do. I'm not the only one whos called you on it.

You"ve also said all terrorists are just mentally ill people (which is insulting to people who struggle with mental illness) and that they have no religious motivation, that terrorism is because of Western influences (which may have some truth, but unlikely to be the only cause, is insulting to all the rest of the world, like we deserve to be bombed and killed indiscriminately. And it's insulting to anyone who was truly bullied in their life and didn't choose to bomb and kill innocent people.) When pushed, yes, you will condemn terrorism while still making excuses for it. You regularly deride, insult, reword posts to the point of ridiculousness and namecall anyone here who dares to suggest there may be a problem in Islam or with misogyny. Barbaric cultural practices practiced mostly by Muslims are excused because a minority of christians living in those Muslim countries also do it and besides, "they'll figure it out eventually." In the meantime, people are dying. Muslim needs, wants, perferences and demands are always what is most important to you, f**ck everyone else. That's my take on it.

Meh. Everyone who doesn't wave pom poms for Islam and make excuses for terrorists is a liar to you.