Gordon O'Connor Once Again Under Pressure

[jdobbin]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/04/23/...an-torture.html

The opposition made calls for the defence minister's resignation Monday, after the publication of a damning report about the torture Afghan detainees face when Canadian soldiers transfer them to Afghan security forces.

The Globe and Mail published interviews Monday with 30 men who say they were beaten, starved, frozen and choked after they were handed over to Afghanistan's National Directorate of Security, a notorious intelligence police force.

Some of the men said they were whipped with bundles of electrical cables until they fell unconscious. Others said they were stripped naked and left outside all night, when Kandahar temperatures dipped below freezing.

One man said he was hung by his ankles and beaten for eight days, while another said he was choked while a plastic bag was held over his head.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/stor...?hub=TopStories

However, one impoverished farmer, Mahmad Gul, 33, told The Globe that he was interrogated and beaten for three days in May 2006 by the Afghan police -- within earshot of Canadian soldiers who visited him between attacks.

"The Canadians told me, 'Give them real information, or they will do more bad things to you,' " said Gul.

Few things sap support for a mission faster than news than torture is happening. It might be popular on 24 but it isn't popular when it takes place for real.

[Leafless]

Few things sap support for a mission faster than news than torture is happening. It might be popular on 24 but it isn't popular when it takes place for real.

So bringing them to Canada is out, unless Dion wants to suggest warehousing them in Quebec somewhere.

But there as already been a solution suggested being:

""It's very unlikely that the most practical way to do so is to bring them in Canada, but we cannot give them to the Afghan authorities, so I guess they will need to stay within our Kandahar facilities."

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...9b247c6&k=20125

End of story.

[jdobbin]

So bringing them to Canada is out, unless Dion wants to suggest warehousing them in Quebec somewhere.

But there as already been a solution suggested being:

Dion floated a stupid idea.

Harper can't say that he didn't the torture allegations was a surprise. Canada is one country that doesn't have proper oversight of prisoner transfers. O'Connor has been stringing along a fable on oversight for months.

[Cameron]

I can't remember where I heard this. But it is in regards to what the Canadians can do with prisoners. There are limitations on what Canada can do with them (before this incident). If Canada found a Taliban they had to turn them into the Afghanistan authorities, because Afgh. is a sovereign country. It's a complicated/political problem.

[Charles Anthony]

If Canada found a Taliban they had to turn them into the Afghanistan authorities, because Afgh. is a sovereign country. It's a complicated/political problem.

Afghanistan is NOT a "sovereign" country.

[Shakeyhands]

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea at this point, but we certainly have had prisoners of war in this country before, part of my indecision is that it didn't hurt us before..... likely the contrary.

[Charles Anthony]

but we certainly have had prisoners of war in this country before, part of my indecision is that it didn't hurt us before..... likely the contrary.

I would like to take issue with one aspect of your statement.

You are treating them as prisoners of war - fine. They are also subjects of interrogation too. The methods of interrogation represent true horror. The Opening Post suggests that Canadian forces are knowingly handing people over to it and are thus, in my eyes, complicit.

Whether we agree with such horrifyingly evil abuses or not, at the very least we should pause and ask: "Is this going to strengthen public support for this Mission or will it hinder support?"

Few things sap support for a mission faster than news than torture is happening.

-- and so it should. Canadian should ask themselves: "Who are we supporting in Afghanistan?"

[theloniusfleabag]

Dear Charles Anthony,

Canadian should ask themselves: "Who are we supporting in Afghanistan?"

Overall, the United States. I am re-reading a fresh copy of 'Soldiers of God: With the Mujahideen in Afghanistan' by Robert Kaplan (one of our dogs ate part of the original copy I had), and it should be noted exactly why the Muj fought the Russians with such tenacity and zeal.

The main focus in the book is Abdul Haq, a young and devoted Mujahideen commander who had personally won the favour of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. He had one central goal, that being the creation of a Muslim Afghanistan run by Islamic law. However, he wasn't a 'radical fundamentalist', and he was eventually sent back into Afghanistan (to his unfortunate death) by the CIA at the beginning of this latest imbroglio.

Great book, a highly interesting read. The author meets Hamid Karzai, and writes of him with great respect, long before Karzai became leader of Afghanistan.

So, why is Canada in Afghanistan? To prevent the return of an 'anti-western' (read: anti-US) regime and to try to foster at least a 'moderate' one, whether or not it be the wishes of the Afghani's themselves.

[madmax]

Dear Charles Anthony,

Canadian should ask themselves: "Who are we supporting in Afghanistan?"

Overall, the United States. I am re-reading a fresh copy of 'Soldiers of God: With the Mujahideen in Afghanistan' by Robert Kaplan

The main focus in the book is Abdul Haq, a young and devoted Mujahideen commander who had personally won the favour of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. He had one central goal, that being the creation of a Muslim Afghanistan run by Islamic law. However, he wasn't a 'radical fundamentalist', and he was eventually sent back into Afghanistan (to his unfortunate death) by the CIA at the beginning of this latest imbroglio.

Great book, a highly interesting read. The author meets Hamid Karzai, and writes of him with great respect, long before Karzai became leader of Afghanistan.

Sorry to go off topic.... this should be in the Afghan thread.

Kaplans book is a great starting point for any reader. I mentioned it in the other Afghan thread. I am glad to see you were able to put together that it was the one and the same Abdul Haq whom was killed in 2001. If you know the details of his death, it was very disheartening.

Many of the players in that book are still active today. It also must be said, that Abdul Haq, while the focus of the book, wasn't a leader of the larger Muj groups. Neither was Karzai. But they where more moderate, in comparision some of the other groups the US was backing. Kaplan is Jewish and at this time, the Muj held no animosity towards "the people of the book" and those whom believed in God vs those Godless commies.

I don't know how many times the book has been updated, the latest copy I saw was up to 2000. Even then, on Kaplans return he had lots of misgivings about what had transpired.

That said, if you are done with Kaplans book, "Taliban" by Ahmed Rashid, is a natural follow up.

(If someone is interested in following up this post, I am willing to continue in the "Afghanistan the Latest" thread.)

As for Gord O'Connor. I believe that many of his statements of late, have been statements of convenience.

[Topaz]

I've watched O"Connor when he been asked questions about the military or the latest the torturing of prisoners. He seems to wish people would quit asking questions and leave him alone because he thinks he shouldn't be bother by them. Since he is a former military person himself, he probably tells people what he wants done or tell them to use their own judgement and perhaps, that is why he doesn't seem to know much.

[Army Guy]

The Opening Post suggests that Canadian forces are knowingly handing people over to it and are thus, in my eyes, complicit.

We can piont fingers at whom ever you want, but until they prove that POW's taken by Canadian soldiers are being tortured by Afgan government officals and Canadian soldiers know of this then really no one is complicit are they...And we are living up to the argreement signed after we refused to give them to the US.

As a soldier whom has taken part in actions that have produced prisons of war, i will say this i don't really care what happens to them after they leave my care and control, for serveral reasons, i've seen there handy work up close, they would not afford me or any of my comrads the same treatment, They are cold blooded killers, anyone who could cut off a head without blinking an eye , or a little girls hands with an axe deserves anything live has in store for them....Don't pin that morality crap on Canadian forces members. it was our government that approved the POW transfer to the Afgans, with Canadian public approval...

That leaves a couple of opitions, we build our own prison, something we have no experiance at. But after 2009 what do we do with the POW's ...let them go, give them to whom...no matter how well we run this prison there're will be nothing but grief come out of those efforts...further tarnishing our nation.

The second opition would transport them into Canada, build a prison for them here, and hold them for how long, and what do we do with them after they serve there time...we all know where this is leading to...they'll claim refugee status and end up on our streets...something i always wanted a cold blood killer living in my nieborhood..."these guys make bikers look like nannies"

[Charles Anthony]

Don't pin that morality crap on Canadian forces members. it was our government that approved the POW transfer to the Afgans, with Canadian public approval...

Count my part of your "public" approval out.

That leaves a couple of opitions,

Here is one more option: pull the Canadian troops out of Afghanistan and give The Authority of Afghanistan money to hire mercenaries or security guards.

[gc1765]

This Extremely Unscientific Poll doesn't look good for O'Connor. If this is how Canadians in general feel about him, I wouldn't be surprised to see him go.

[Fortunata]

ArmyGuy, part of what makes us a great country and a great people is that we don't do the grotesque and inhumane just because others do it. What a great example that would be and we don't need more fuel for the fire for our soldiers over there. Is this how we think we will win hearts and minds? These detainees have friends, family and communities that will watch and remember what happens to these guys after they are taken by Canadians. Part of why we are there is to set the country in a direction of democracy and freedom. Isn't it? If not, why the hell are we there then?

As for putting the prisoners into Canadian camps, I think it is a bad idea, but to drivel on about how they would be made refugees and let out on our streets comments by some, is just too stupid for words. If this is supposed to be a real discussion then we should have some realism here.

[Nocrap]

"I've watched O"Connor when he been asked questions about the military or the latest the torturing of prisoners. He seems to wish people would quit asking questions and leave him alone because he thinks he shouldn't be bother by them. Since he is a former military person himself, he probably tells people what he wants done or tell them to use their own judgement and perhaps, that is why he doesn't seem to know much."

It's not the fact that he is a former military person that should give Canadians concern. It's the fact that he was a 'former' lobbyist for military contracts and Hill and Knowlton employee. He should always sit out discussions on Afghanistan due to conflict of interest. He's annoyed by questions because he just doesn't care. He's in the money...he's in the money...

[Army Guy]

Count my part of your "public" approval out.

After the gitmo experence, Canadians, did'nt really care where the POW's went just not to US prisons...And since Canada does not pocess the experiance in running a POW prison, nor has the persons available to man such a facility it would quickly turn into a dogs breakfast... a good example of that is look how quickly a few roughed up POW's turned into a national inquest, and debate...how quickly did that turn into accusations of Canadian soldiers mistreating prisoners...I can just imagine the quality of prison our nation would have to set up to keep it out of the papers...and Canadians from making accusations...

Here is one more option: pull the Canadian troops out of Afghanistan and give The Authority of Afghanistan money to hire mercenaries or security guards.

No the best opition would be "STOP" sending our military on missions that we have no intention of completing, or Canadians have the patients to see thru. Placing a very short time limit on a mission that normally takes 15 to 20 years to complete is just plain stupid. or rather done for polictical reasons And accomplishes nothing, Yes we can state we've done our time , invested enough, we're leaving....but if you don't like the long term commitment then stay the fuc* out of these types of missions.

What is frustrating to soldiers is the Canadian people said to them "this is your mission" go do us proud, we did that, we are still doing that ...but now they are screaming "time is up" you took to long, get back to Canada...much like giving a contractor only 2 weeks to build your home...

The fall out from us pulling out will be great, and we will not be the only nation to do so, others will quickly follow...it will be touted as a great Taliban victory, and thier movement will gain momentum and will force the US and Britian out shortly afterward. Afgan will be another forgotten pile of ruble that will quickly fester into something bad once again. forcing us to once again go in and assist in nation building once again...out Just my opinon...

[Argus]

Few things sap support for a mission faster than news than torture is happening. It might be popular on 24 but it isn't popular when it takes place for real.

Ayup. On the list of top 100 things which concern Canadians the welfare of terrorist suspects handed over to their own government places about near #451.

[Argus]

I'm not sure how I feel about the idea at this point, but we certainly have had prisoners of war in this country before, part of my indecision is that it didn't hurt us before..... likely the contrary.

We didn't have the Charter of rights then. If you bring these people to Canada the first thing they will all do is get lawyers (funded by us) and claim refugee status.

[Argus]

This Extremely Unscientific Poll doesn't look good for O'Connor. If this is how Canadians in general feel about him, I wouldn't be surprised to see him go.

O'Connor is doing a good job. He isn't going anywhere. Just because the Globe felt it could sell more newspapers by manufacturing a crisis is no reason to punish a minister who has done nothing wrong. The most anyone can pin on him is he relied on DND staff to tell him that the prisoner transfers were being properly monitored. Besides, Canadians don't give a damn about prisoners in the hands of their own government.

[Charles Anthony]

After the gitmo experence, Canadians, did'nt really care where the POW's went just not to US prisons...

I do not believe that.

I believe more Canadians care that prisoners of war -- regardless of who they are -- are treated humanely. You do not.

What is frustrating to soldiers is the Canadian people said to them "this is your mission" go do us proud, we did that, we are still doing that ...but now they are screaming "time is up" you took to long, get back to Canada...much like giving a contractor only 2 weeks to build your home...

I think you are confused about who sent you on this Mission.

It is frustrating to me to hear you say that "the Canadian people" sent you to Afghanistan. Only a select few Canadians had any choice in the matter and most Canadians were not consulted.

I am Canadian and I did NOT send you on a mission to Afghanistan.

It's not the fact that he is a former military person that should give Canadians concern. It's the fact that he was a 'former' lobbyist for military contracts and Hill and Knowlton employee.

Excellent point.

[gc1765]

O'Connor is doing a good job. He isn't going anywhere. Just because the Globe felt it could sell more newspapers by manufacturing a crisis is no reason to punish a minister who has done nothing wrong. The most anyone can pin on him is he relied on DND staff to tell him that the prisoner transfers were being properly monitored. Besides, Canadians don't give a damn about prisoners in the hands of their own government.

I'd like to see a more accurate poll, although this one might at least give some idea of how Canadians feel. It doesn't really matter whether O'Connor has done anything wrong, if the vast majority of Canadians think he is doing a poor job, I don't think Harper will keep him on.

[jdobbin]

Ayup. On the list of top 100 things which concern Canadians the welfare of terrorist suspects handed over to their own government places about near #451.

You're under the impression this increases support for the mission?

[Michael Bluth]

I'd like to see a more accurate poll, although this one might at least give some idea of how Canadians feel. It doesn't really matter whether O'Connor has done anything wrong, if the vast majority of Canadians think he is doing a poor job, I don't think Harper will keep him on.

The only way O'Connor leaves cabinet is if he resigns.

He could possibly resign as part of not running again in the next election.

All depends on election timing. If Harper holds off until the fall, or later, I'm guessing O'Connor won't last as Minister until the next election...

[jdobbin]

After the gitmo experence, Canadians, did'nt really care where the POW's went just not to US prisons...And since Canada does not pocess the experiance in running a POW prison, nor has the persons available to man such a facility it would quickly turn into a dogs breakfast... a good example of that is look how quickly a few roughed up POW's turned into a national inquest, and debate...how quickly did that turn into accusations of Canadian soldiers mistreating prisoners...I can just imagine the quality of prison our nation would have to set up to keep it out of the papers...and Canadians from making accusations...

Canada doesn't have to bring prisoners to Canada. And the excuse that we don't have experience operating prisoner of war camps doesn't wash. We don't have recent experience nation building either but do it now.

Amnesty says that Canada should be holding its own prisoners and training Afghans while we do it. It tend to agree with that given that we can't trust prisoners what happens to prisoners when they leave custody.

If we leave in 2009, provisions should be made to transfer prisoners to other NATO security forces.

[Army Guy]

I do not believe that.

I believe more Canadians care that prisoners of war -- regardless of who they are -- are treated humanely. You do not.

Believe what you want to, Canada's military has been handing over Prisoners to the Afgan auth for years now, and not a peep, infact the whole prisoner thing pretty much died out after that. which brings more to mine side of the debate than yours. If there was so much concern why was it not raised until someone accused our military of mishandling POW's, an accusation which turned out to be false.

As for myself caring about Taliban prisoners, your statement is not entirely true, while they were in our care and control they were treated better than the genva convention has laid out...my response was did i care about them after they were handed over to the Afgan authority to which i said no....

But then again do we care what happens to child abuser, serial killers after they get locked up, do we give a shit whether to get beat up by other inmates.or conditions are a little tough ...Is there a national movement to correct this, or are we taking the Canadian typical response , does not effect me, hockey season, my taxes, who cares....

Canadians have to put this all into context, Taliban routinly make examples of Afgan civilians such as heads on pikes, cutting of of limbs and heads, so it's not surprising that some take revenge on the taliban...

Canadians read about this in the media and gasp those savages, those barbarians...are these the animals we are supporting , helping rebuild .... Screw this i want nothing to do with this....Check our own history, is was not so long ago that we took our revenge out on other militaries The Nazi SS div's in france for one, After we liberated Concentration camps, another. One should not throw stones if you live in a glass house.

Yes , we as a nation know this behavior is unacceptable but we as a nation do not hold the high moral ground here, we are leading by example, and most are following. And in time everyone will see the error in thier ways and correct them, much like we did... Alot of Canadians just want an excuse to end this mission, any excuse will do, and some have grasp ahold of this one.