Gordon O'Connor Once Again Under Pressure

[AndrewL]

Whenever I hear murky comments like 'we are making a difference' it sounds like the comments made by americans in iraq, or even the soviets in Afgnaistan before this invasion, or even the British before that.... I just need something to hang my hat on, because just trusting the opinions of soldiers and politicians is not good enough.

Andrew

Hi Andrew.

Army Guy is giving his honest assessment of Afghanistan. He hasn't given me a load of BS or the RAH RAH RAH crap. The problem that the Army has, and always will have, are the politicians, every stripe.

Gord O'Connor is now a politician, and is demonstrating a level of incompetence unworthy of the position he holds. The problems in Afghanistan are complex. Your questions are valid. I would like to state that the way you are putting the questions, would almost imply that "army guy" and the Canadian Forces are responsible for the troubles and the solutions in Afghanistan.

The government has had a problem for 6 years on what to do with Afghan Prisioners. The Liberals were not anymore forth coming then the CPC. Harper continues to say stupid things, but the policies are the same and were never properly addressed.

Army Guy demonstrates that his loyalty is with those he serves with, and tries to explain the complexities of assemtrical warfare in an impoverished Islamic country where the cultural differences are very complex.

I do believe that the combat mission in the south will have little more accomplished in 2009 then it does today. I have supported a withdrawl from this strategy.

Our politicians particularly the Liberals are playing both sides of the fence regarding the needs of the mission (Should I stay or should I go).

The Conservatives resorting to Name Calling and are in Denial with regards to the prisioners and these theatrics in parliment are doing no one who is directly involved in Afghanistan, any good.

I never meant to imply that Canadian soldiers are in any way responsible for the issues in Afghanistan. In fact it is the exact opposite, i don't believe we should be in any way responsible for what happens in Afghanistan.

Andrew

[Army Guy]

What exactly are soldiers doing?

The website says: "supporting NGO workers who were delivering CIDA - funded aid – constructing schools, drilling wells, and improving public sanitation."

Are Canadian soldiers doing construction?

Problem with NGO's is they are few and far inbetween, alot of this work is being done by the combat arms guys, as the NGO's do not accompany us out on patrols, the work that the NGO's do is taken from patrol reports or offical request thru Afganis officals, and it passes thru to many hands, for instance a patrol may report a villagers well is broken 4 or 5 times before NGO's actually take action....also keep in mind for them to go out and do these repairs or requests, there is alot of planning and coord on thier part and ours as we provide the security, vehs, support etc etc...in most cases it is alot easier for us to do the job ourselfs...

NGO's are not the only ones deliverying CIDA monies, the PRT aslo do this thru the military, a media article on a female SGT about 2 months explained this, the Afganis call her the women with the monie...this is something new to try and get aid down to the Afganis people faster...imagine how fustrating it is for a patrol commander to explain all our red tape and why they don't have there new well etc etc ...if they patrol commanders had the cash right there that whole process could be shorten...

There are alot of examples of the military thru cimic or PRT, that has constructed schools,wells,iragation ditchs by doing the construction themselfs. And not always with government monies either, military pers have chipped in thier own cash to pay for these things, I think the biggest was they raised enough monie to purchased a new Land rover Amb, and to refurbish a fire truck...

[AndrewL]

What difference exactly? Im not saying Canada is not, but is there anything specific you can point to that Canada is doing to stop Afghanistan from becoming a failed state?

Afgan

Afgan

Afgan

The above are just some of our accomplishments, but they are so many that most sites only comment on the major ones, some of the smaller ones are building schools, hospitals, fire depts, police depts, roads, paved twin highways, irigation ditchs, demining living and farming areas, providing small amounts of cash directly towards the villages for items like wells, books, items for schools, on top of this lets not forget things that the soldiers and thier families are doing , handing out toques, gloves and mittins knitted by Canadian volenteers, gathering up tones of school supplies, handing out the tonnes of donated clothing, toys, shoes, boots, the list is endless, basically anything that has been sent to afgan...

Thanks. Those links are helpful in gauging what Canada is trying to accomplish in Afg, buts ts not clear what these projects have actually accomplished. Its all been done before in Afghanistan to no avail.

Since i have left they are now starting construction of another pave hyway from the pakistan border which was a dirt road but a major artry into Afgan....

Yes. The Russians dis the same thing, and matched it with the same rhetoric.

Actually there is more factions than just the AQ, and Taliban, there is mercs, warlords, militia etc etc many different groups working again'st what we are trying to do, That being said i do not want to give you the impresion that most of the country is again'st us...most either tolerate our presence, or support us....

This makes me tremendously uncomfortable with Canada's role, and is ultimately the source of all the failed occupations in Afghanistan. The cities have never been the problem, its always the people out in the country.

I'm not going to BS you there are Afganis that don't want us there, and i'm sure they have armed themselfs and engaged us at some piont...

This is where it starts to go bad, invariably.

The difference between my opinion and a politions is I don't care if you trust me or not, i'm not trying to sell you something, get your vote, or promising you anything , in fact the only reason i post on this forum is to try and bring some fact and trurth into some of the topics....bringing one soldiers opinion to the debate, thats all.

Want to hang your hat on something, take a look at what sacrafice our soldiers endure everyday to do this job. Combat soldiers live for the most part outside the wire, in which your adrenilen is always pumping , your spidey sense always tingling, very exhausting after weeks at a time...we live in deep ditchs, covered in dust, dirt, insects , snakes and everything else that crawls...not seeing showers for weeks sometimes months, personal hygine consists of a wet nap and a cup of water to brush your teeth with...living in extreme heat summer time temps over 50 c doing all that while wearing over 50 pounds of protective equipment and carrying a 60 lb ruck sack....now do it all in a combat enviroment.. we seen over 20 of my comrads killed and countless wounded.

I appreciate your efforts to share your experiences here.

DID i mention that i volenteered not once but twice, infact all of us are volenteers, nobody is forced to go...Yes it's our job, we get paid to do all that, but i get paid wether i'm doing that in Afgan or Canada in a warm bed, showers etc etc ...and yet we continue to put our lives on hold and indanger because we believe we are making a difference , because we see that we are making a difference, because we believe that this is really what Canadians want us to do.

I imagine it would be extremely difficult to do your job if you didn't believe you were making a difference.

Assist those that can not defend themselfs, to help rebuild thier nation so that they can enjoy some of the basic freedoms we take for granted everyday. Are we experts on what we are doing, combat yes, but all the rest by no means , are we going to make mistakes you bet, are we doing the best possiable job we are capable of , you bet....

Do they even want the freedoms we take for granted? Do you really think you will ever see a modern afghanistan that is liberal and secular? That would be pretty surprising. Im sure some of them do want this, but enough don't to make it impossible. Especially when the government is partly composed of islamicists and politicians who must do business with the Taleban at some point.

But when i look done the line I don't see a whole lot of those agencies that specialize in certain areas, what i do see is a long line of Canadian soldiers all doing the job , because they stepped up and said we'll do it...and they do it without complaining, with old and tired equipment , and without the support from the majority of Canadians in regards to the mission... but most importantly we continue to do it, because it is the right thing to do, it's a Canadian thing to do.

If that is to murky for you i apoligize, but that is what i believe in, that is why i keep volenteering to go back, and not just me thousands of Canadian soldiers.

I really do appreciate your comments, i will stop short of saying i appreciate the Canadian Forces work over there, because im really not sure i do. Although i am convinced you are doing what you think is best and right, which i respect. But ultimately i think our presence in Afghanistan will end just as all occupations end (notable exceptions in post WWII of course). And I think that there is a risk that Canada's security will have been degraded because of this. I do respect your individual courage and desire to do what you think is right though.

Andrew

[Argus]

I don't think it has any relation to support for the mission. It has been cynically seized on by the opposition who are shaking fists and waving papers, of course, but the opposition is almost entirely without morals or ethics, and cares no more about these people than they do about anything else over there. They're simply trying to make a stink in hopes of increasing their election chances. Guaranteed that if Harper's government fell tonight and the Liberals were in tomorrow there would be no talk of Canada operating prisons in Afghanistan or bringing them to Canada.

I certainly don't think prisoners should be brought to Canada. However, turning them over for torture doesn't help raise support in Canada or Afghanistan.

No one gives a shit outside of the tiny circle of media types and lib-left lawyers and academics. Nobody. This will not change any votes. The people who care about this sort of thing are the same people who would slit their own throats rather than vote Tory - ever.

[madmax]

No one gives a shit outside of the tiny circle of media types and lib-left lawyers and academics. Nobody. This will not change any votes. The people who care about this sort of thing are the same people who would slit their own throats rather than vote Tory - ever.

The reverse is true. The people whom think like you about prisioners and torture, are likely to vote CPC and nothing else. This would amount to a very small yet vocal portion of the population.

The statement you make above is absolute tripe. All you seem to care about is whom people vote for, vs what is going on and what are the implications of such actions.

5 Taliban Commanders were released last month by the Afghans.

All sorts of things happen in Afghanistan. Isn't it nice to know that Taliban commanders captured by Nato forces are released to command once again. Then you have friendly Afghans tortured, as well as Taliban tortured.

This is not good under any circumstance. It wasn't good at Abu Graib.

Your opinion is not only in the minority, it is detrimental to the mission.

[jdobbin]

No one gives a shit outside of the tiny circle of media types and lib-left lawyers and academics. Nobody. This will not change any votes. The people who care about this sort of thing are the same people who would slit their own throats rather than vote Tory - ever.

I never mentioned voting Tory. I said support for the mission and I think several polls have clearly made connections to support and what is happening in Afghanistan. Casualties, torture and corruption have all contributed to a fall in support.

[August1991]

Ayup. On the list of top 100 things which concern Canadians the welfare of terrorist suspects handed over to their own government places about near #451.

I'm with Argus.

It appears that some freelancer got hold of a telephone card and managed to speak to some Afghan detainees. Not surprisingly, they complained of their plight.

Then, the G & M bought the story. The rest, as they say, is history. Or at least it matters to Canadians (about 30% of all) who take an active interest in politics and will never, under any circumstances, vote for Stephen Harper.

I'm re-reading a fresh copy of 'Soldiers of God: With the Mujahideen in Afghanistan' by Robert Kaplan (one of our dogs ate part of the original copy I had), and it should be noted exactly why the Muj fought the Russians with such tenacity and zeal.

I confused your Kaplan with another one. Yours really likes colons in his titles:

The Coming Anarchy: Shattering the Dreams of the Post Cold War by Robert D. Kaplan

Warrior Politics: Why Leadership Demands a Pagan Ethos by Robert D. Kaplan

Surrender or Starve: Travels in Ethiopia, Sudan, Somalia, and Eritrea by Robert D. Kaplan

Eastward to Tartary: Travels in the Balkans, the Middle East, and the Caucasus by Robert D. Kaplan

An Empire Wilderness: Travels into America's Future by Robert D. Kaplan

What a travelling word machine!

+1 Army Guy

At least some one is keeping score.

[jdobbin]

Reuters today reported how Tory ministers were contradicting themselves all day.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/070426/...a_afghan_ca_col

Canada's government descended into disarray over an Afghan abuse scandal on Thursday after ministers openly contradicted each other over allegations that Taliban suspects captured by Canadian soldiers had been tortured by local police.

The case is rapidly becoming the biggest crisis to hit the minority Conservative government since it took power after the January 2006 election.

When allegations of abuse first aired on Monday, Ottawa referred to them as rumors.

The government then said it would press Kabul for answers before Defence Minister Gordon O'Connor announced late on Wednesday that Canadian officials had concluded an agreement with Afghan authorities to allow monitoring of prisoners that had been handed over.

This came as a surprise to the foreign minister and chief of the defense staff, who said they were unaware of a deal.

What the heck is happening in Ottawa? Do they or do they not have a deal to monitor prisoners?

[madmax]

What the heck is happening in Ottawa? Do they or do they not have a deal to monitor prisoners?

O'Connor should resign. He doesn't have a grasp of the file, which given his background is troubling. I watched him on TV, he looks like a deer in the headlights. Then the STockwell Day episode. I thought that McKay would then be standing up, maybe even shuffled into O'Connors portfolio.

Regardless of ones opinion on this, (who cares about Afghans torturing Afghans), that is held by some on this forum, the government is looking like the keystone cops.

[Argus]

No one gives a shit outside of the tiny circle of media types and lib-left lawyers and academics. Nobody. This will not change any votes. The people who care about this sort of thing are the same people who would slit their own throats rather than vote Tory - ever.

The reverse is true. The people whom think like you about prisioners and torture, are likely to vote CPC and nothing else. This would amount to a very small yet vocal portion of the population

Bullshit. The people snivelling and whining about this are so wildly out of touch with the average Canadian they probably never met one. Not to mention being out of touch with reality. What do you people expect from an Afghan government anyway? You really think they're going to become the centre of enlightenment on Earth? This is Afghanistan! If they're not giving these prisoners a bullet in the ear and a shallow grave that's a huge improvement. Do you think government rebels get treated better in Iran or Yemen or Egypt? Give us all a break with your crocodile tears about the poor Taliban.

The statement you make above is absolute tripe. All you seem to care about is whom people vote for, vs what is going on and what are the implications of such actions.

Yes, well, we are discussing the politics of the situation, and that is what's driving this. I don't think the tories or liberals really give a crap about Taliban prisoners and what their own government does to them.

5 Taliban Commanders were released last month by the Afghans.

And what has that got to do with us? What control do we have over that?

Your opinion is not only in the minority, it is detrimental to the mission.

My opinion is by far the mainstream opinion. Yours is held by journalists and academics, and other isolated, ivory tower types removed from reality.

[Argus]

No one gives a shit outside of the tiny circle of media types and lib-left lawyers and academics. Nobody. This will not change any votes. The people who care about this sort of thing are the same people who would slit their own throats rather than vote Tory - ever.

I never mentioned voting Tory. I said support for the mission and I think several polls have clearly made connections to support and what is happening in Afghanistan. Casualties, torture and corruption have all contributed to a fall in support.

Bad publicity of any kind causes the winds to shift among those who are flighty and don't really understand much about what is going on. No big surprise there.

[jdobbin]

Bad publicity of any kind causes the winds to shift among those who are flighty and don't really understand much about what is going on. No big surprise there.

That might be true if the shift was instantaneous but it hasn't been. It has been a slow fall since 2002. Canadians have been fairly patient on the issue. The lack of updates by the prime minister last year cited by the military themselves helped push support to a low ebb. This year we are hearing confusion about Afghan policy on detainees and seeing a lack of support from our NATO allies on approaching the war with the Taliban or even engaging the Taliban. It all adds up to a fall of support and calls for immediate withdrawal of troops in recent poll numbers.

[jdobbin]

The latest tact of the Tories is to say that torture of Afghan detainees isn't happening despite no investigation.

It also a diversion from the lack of monitoring in place.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/070427/...fghan_cda_abuse

The embattled Conservative government is pushing a new line about claims of prisoner abuse in Afghanistan - it didn't happen.

But the assurance by Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day on Friday came despite the fact that no full investigation has been conducted.

Meanwhile, the mystery continues over who, if anyone, is monitoring the treatment of detainees handed over to Afghan authorities by Canadian troops.

Day accused the opposition again Friday of believing "false allegations" of torture made by insurgents.

Day also says that Opposition critics are tarring Canadian soldiers.

[madmax]

Bad publicity of any kind causes the winds to shift among those who are flighty and don't really understand much about what is going on. No big surprise there.

Such a dismissive statement.

This isn't about a leader trying to raise the moral of the troops and the country. This is a Prime Minister and Cabinet trying to defend the undefendable.

I am willing to believe that O'Connor is going to become a casualty of this. On MDL they are saying he wasn't allowed to answer a question. After the performance of the past few days, and no one having any confidence in him. I would say he is toast.

[jdobbin]

The ambassador to Canada from Afghanistan contradicts Day about monitoring of detainees.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/st...a6a1f05&k=41661

Urging an end to the "political circus" over Afghan detainees, Afghanistan's ambassador to Canada says no Canadians, including corrections officers, have monitored treatment of prisoners turned over by Canadian military forces.

However, Ambassador Omar Samad said in a Global National interview that Canadian officials will soon have "unrestricted access" to prisons under an agreement currently being worked out with Canada in the wake of political uproar over alleged torture of detainees.

Samad contradicted assertions by Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day that Corrections Canada officers have been monitoring prisoner treatment — an assertion Day repeated in the Commons Friday, saying they are there "to see if there are cases of torture."

Perhaps Day should resign for this.

[daniel]

These discussions seem awfully familiar. Oh yeah, Abu Graib. History is repeating itself.

[buffycat]

come off it - they knew.

So is anyone here going to do anything about it?

Eh?

Write a letter perhaps? make a phonecalll?

What? No?

huh..... okies

So why bother even talking about it in purely partisan drivel? Don't you realize the whole left vs right paradigm is pure propoganda?

Sleeptime is over, time to wake up.

[scribblet]

Mr. Ignatieff should check with the powers that be now and again and find out what Martin and crew were up to.

http://tinyurl.com/25rspl

Torture in Afghanistan: the liberals knew

The old liberal government had been prevented by Canadian diplomats in station in Kabul, in 2003, 2004 and 2005, that torture was a current practice in the Afghan prisons.

In spite of these warnings, the Martin government decided to sign an agreement with the Karzaï government, in December 2005, in order to deliver to the Afghan authorities all the prisoners captured by the Canadian soldiers, reveal documents of the Ministries for Foreign Affairs obtained by the Press.

Between 2002 and 2005, Canada was accustomed to giving to the Americans the Afghan prisoners suspected of having bonds with the talibans. But Ottawa decided to negotiate an agreement of transfer of the prisoners with the Afghan authorities, following the controversy caused by the ill treatments in the center of military detention American of Guantánamo, in Cuba, and the tortures inflicted to the prisoners by American soldiers with the prison of Abou Ghraib, in Iraq.

[jdobbin]

Mr. Ignatieff should check with the powers that be now and again and find out what Martin and crew were up to.

If the Tories wish to bring that up now, fine. However, Harper is now saying that abuse doesn't take place.

[Argus]

Mr. Ignatieff should check with the powers that be now and again and find out what Martin and crew were up to.

If the Tories wish to bring that up now, fine. However, Harper is now saying that abuse doesn't take place.

Odd how you decided that Day making a statement about the opposition believing "false and misleading" allegations jumps to Harper in the space of a couple of posts. I guess you figured Harper denying torture sounded better, eh?

The confusion around this issue is obviously because no one was really paying a lot of attention, and the powers in Ottawa aren't entirely sure what various ministries, ie, Justice, Foreign Affairs, Defense, etc. are doing in Afghanistan vis a vis monitoring prisoners.

Odd how we've been there for ten years but no one bothered to inquire earlier or set up any kind of monitoring, eh? I wonder where all the horror and teeth gnashing about human rights was among you guys on the left back when the Liberals were in power.

[Canuck E Stan]

DION HYPOCRISY ? LIBS KNEW TORTURE IN 2003 2004 2005

Same old,same old....

[jdobbin]

Odd how you decided that Day making a statement about the opposition believing "false and misleading" allegations jumps to Harper in the space of a couple of posts. I guess you figured Harper denying torture sounded better, eh?

The confusion around this issue is obviously because no one was really paying a lot of attention, and the powers in Ottawa aren't entirely sure what various ministries, ie, Justice, Foreign Affairs, Defense, etc. are doing in Afghanistan vis a vis monitoring prisoners.

Odd how we've been there for ten years but no one bothered to inquire earlier or set up any kind of monitoring, eh? I wonder where all the horror and teeth gnashing about human rights was among you guys on the left back when the Liberals were in power.

Harper called the whole thing "baseless accusations" in the House.

http://www.thestar.com/News/article/208192

Meanwhile, Harper insists the abuse allegations are "baseless accusations," while Day labels them part of a Taliban disinformation campaign.

If there is confusion on the issue, it is the Tories who are creating it.

As far as what the Liberals did when they were in power, by all means investigate it.

[jdobbin]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/28/n...fghanistan.html

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the government in Afghanistan will investigate allegations that Afghan prisoners suspected of fighting for the Taliban have been abused, the head of NATO said on Saturday.

NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, speaking at a security forum in Brussels, praised the decision to investigate allegations that prisoners are being abused after troops hand them over to Afghan authorities.

De Hoop Scheffer said NATO forces are in Afghanistan to "defend universal values," including proper treatment of detainees.

Looks like NATO is going to make Harper's nightmare come true: An investigation is coming into the treatment of detainees.

[Keepitsimple]

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/04/28/n...fghanistan.html

The North Atlantic Treaty Organization and the government in Afghanistan will investigate allegations that Afghan prisoners suspected of fighting for the Taliban have been abused, the head of NATO said on Saturday.

NATO Secretary General Jaap de Hoop Scheffer, speaking at a security forum in Brussels, praised the decision to investigate allegations that prisoners are being abused after troops hand them over to Afghan authorities.

De Hoop Scheffer said NATO forces are in Afghanistan to "defend universal values," including proper treatment of detainees.

Looks like NATO is going to make Harper's nightmare come true: An investigation is coming into the treatment of detainees.

On the contrary. It just goes to show that if there is a severe and systemic problem - and that is yet to be proven, it is not just a Canadian problem but one that affects all NATO countries - regardless of what official agreements are in place. We know that Afghans do not run a Club Fed like we do in Canada - and who would expect them to? This inquiry might bring to light whether there is pervasive, systemic torture. I'm sickened by the opposition attempts to demonize the conservatives.....and though the opposition denies it, I'm also sickened by how they have demonized our Military who are simply following the procedures that are laid out by NATO and our politicians - and that is - hand them over to the Afghans. Canada is part of NATO. NATO forces are led by De Hoop Scheffer. He has acknowledged that there may be a problem with prisoners handed over by any NATO country. So let the inquiry do its job and lets move on.

[jdobbin]

On the contrary. It just goes to show that if there is a severe and systemic problem - and that is yet to be proven, it is not just a Canadian problem but one that affects all NATO countries - regardless of what official agreements are in place. We know that Afghans do not run a Club Fed like we do in Canada - and who would expect them to? This inquiry might bring to light whether there is pervasive, systemic torture. I'm sickened by the opposition attempts to demonize the conservatives.....and though the opposition denies it, I'm also sickened by how they have demonized our Military who are simply following the procedures that are laid out by NATO and our politicians - and that is - hand them over to the Afghans. Canada is part of NATO. NATO forces are led by De Hoop Scheffer. He has acknowledged that there may be a problem with prisoners handed over by any NATO country. So let the inquiry do its job and lets move on.

The Conservatives in Canada deny there is a problem at all. That should sicken you as well since their own censored reports show it is happening. No, let's not move on. After five days of the story changing, the answer is still not forthcoming.

Canada is also part of the Geneva Convention.