An intresting observation today

[moderateamericain]

Every Tuesday and Thursday my buddy Ray and I take lunch at this little Mexican restaurant in downtown Charlotte. A little about Ray, hes a bit younger than I at 26. He recently went Inactive with the United States Marine Corps. (squibbys that can shoot) He did two tours in Iraq. Was in the thick of the Fallujah campaign and also did a his first tour in Afghanistan. Anyways, were walking down the street and theres some Anti-war protesters handing out leaflets with statistics on the war. I see them coming up to us, and I try to distract Ray away. Not happening in this situation. He grabs the leaflet and reads it, and I can just see his face getting purple. The leaflet had some misleading facts. Like 20,000 children under 5 killed in the war. Which is just horse shit. Maybe 20k since operation desert storm maybe.

Anyways Ray launches into these guys about putting out misleading facts, explains that he was there in the thick of the fighting. These guys tell him he does not know anything about it. At this point I'm in pure shock. A decorated Marine just told you eyewitness experience from not 1 but 2 tours of duty and you believe some piece of fact that he probably got off the internet? Ray in a few drunk moments told me about being ambushed in Afghanistan by Terrorist who used a play ground as cover and shot 3 children. But other than that, he says he saw very few children killed as a result of US fire. The guy has no reason to lie to me about this stuff. He also helped build one of the first Hospitals in Fallujah. Did you know they can actually do heart surgery in Fallujah? Three years ago, they did not even have a hospital.

[sharkman]

In any war, the facts take heavy casualties. In a war bleeding heart liberals hate, the truth is their number one target.

[Shakeyhands]

Sharkman.... It's never too late to give up your prejudices

Imagine that.... people wanting war to end... silly eh.

[PolyNewbie]

ModerateAmerican:Ray in a few drunk moments told me about being ambushed in Afghanistan by Terrorist who used a play ground as cover and shot 3 children.

I don't understand how Ray can call an Iraqui a terrorist when he is part of the invading force.

I don't understand how Ray being there makes him a better statician wrt casualties.

What does Ray think of the Geneva convention ?

I'm sure Ray's and most of the other troops have noble intentions and believe they are fighting for freedom but my guess is that someone that isn't emotionally connected to the events can be a better judge of the morality related issues of the war.

Responsible citizens do research and develop opinions about the war and express them to politicians and engage in debates. Its sad but Ray is part of a professional army and the establishment doesn't give a hoot what he thinks.

I do care what he thinks but can put his opinion into context of an example of what war may be like as a soldier and that is part of what the war is about. It does not make him any more qualified to judge the moral correctness of the war or its historical context. Does Ray know there are 40,000 British troops lying dead under dumps from the previous imperial invasion of Iraq (pre ww2)

There have been estimates by independent bodies of 500,000 dead Iraquis. 10,000 kids under 5 dead sounds reasonable. If you consider Iraq war 1 and Bushes sanctions its probably quite a bit higher than that.

It we the voting citizens that should be accepting the moral responsibility for the war, not Ray. Ray is no more responsible if it was wrong than we are.

BTW: Canada is just as involved as the USA. We helped facilitate the invasion, Canadians help with the war effort. Just because the politicians and TV tell us otherwise doesn't mean anything.

[kuzadd]

Every Tuesday and Thursday my buddy Ray and I take lunch at this little Mexican restaurant in downtown Charlotte. A little about Ray, hes a bit younger than I at 26. He recently went Inactive with the United States Marine Corps. (squibbys that can shoot) He did two tours in Iraq. Was in the thick of the Fallujah campaign and also did a his first tour in Afghanistan. Anyways, were walking down the street and theres some Anti-war protesters handing out leaflets with statistics on the war. I see them coming up to us, and I try to distract Ray away. Not happening in this situation. He grabs the leaflet and reads it, and I can just see his face getting purple. The leaflet had some misleading facts. Like 20,000 children under 5 killed in the war. Which is just horse shit. Maybe 20k since operation desert storm maybe.

Anyways Ray launches into these guys about putting out misleading facts, explains that he was there in the thick of the fighting. These guys tell him he does not know anything about it. At this point I'm in pure shock. A decorated Marine just told you eyewitness experience from not 1 but 2 tours of duty and you believe some piece of fact that he probably got off the internet? Ray in a few drunk moments told me about being ambushed in Afghanistan by Terrorist who used a play ground as cover and shot 3 children. But other than that, he says he saw very few children killed as a result of US fire. The guy has no reason to lie to me about this stuff. He also helped build one of the first Hospitals in Fallujah. Did you know they can actually do heart surgery in Fallujah? Three years ago, they did not even have a hospital.

The leaflet had some misleading facts.

an obvious ASSUMPTION. Do you KNOW that to be accurate?

A decorated Marine just told you eyewitness experience from not 1 but 2 tours of duty and you believe some piece of fact that he probably got off the internet? Ray in a few drunk moments told me about being ambushed in Afghanistan by Terrorist who used a play ground as cover and shot 3 children. But other than that, he says he saw very few children killed as a result of US fire.

"a decorated marine"

, now, as we have seen "American soldiers would never lie, nor have they committed attrocities,????? facetious

"Ray in a few drunk moments told me about being ambushed in Afghanistan by Terrorist " so an Afghani citizen, who ambushes the invader/occupier in his own country is the terrorist???

what kinda double speak are you actually into here???

" But other than that, he says he saw very few children killed as a result of US fire."

he, personally, in one area, saw very few children killed as a result of US fire, NOTE: he said, very few,

how much is very few???? is it 5, 10, 15, 20????? more??? How does he quantify very few???

Let's as an example , throw out a hypothetical scenario, if "Ray" in his little neck of the woods on his 3 tours of duty, saw an average of 5 kids,(very few) killed by American fire, multiplied by the number of American soldiers in Iraq/ afghanistan which I will guesstimate at 140,000. Now lets say 1/2 of those soldiers 70,000 of them ,saw 5 kids killed by American fire, how many kids have died by American fire power??? well I did the math, and it comes to 350,000 kids.

Let's even low ball it more, and say , only 35,000 soldiers, just 1/4 of the deployed, saw 5 children killed by American firepower, that would still be 175,000 kids!!!!

That of course doesn't include fire power from the British, the private mercenaries etc.,

In all likelihood, far more then 20,000 children have died since America invaded both countries, given both Afghnaistan and Iraq had millions and millions of people within their borders, and there populations consisted of very large segments of children/ opposite of US/Canada, where are population is older.

In other words Ray story is very far from correct, as he has access to such limited information, strictly his own.

[scribblet]

Every Tuesday and Thursday my buddy Ray and I take lunch at this little Mexican restaurant in downtown

Anyways Ray launches into these guys about putting out misleading facts, explains that he was there in the thick of the fighting. These guys tell him he does not know anything about it. At this point I'm in pure shock. A decorated Marine just told you eyewitness experience from not 1 but 2 tours of duty and you believe some piece of fact that he probably got off the internet? Ray in a few drunk moments told me about being ambushed in Afghanistan by Terrorist who used a play ground as cover and shot 3 children. But other than that, he says he saw very few children killed as a result of US fire. The guy has no reason to lie to me about this stuff. He also helped build one of the first Hospitals in Fallujah. Did you know they can actually do heart surgery in Fallujah? Three years ago, they did not even have a hospital.

Misleading facts, sure and here's how newspapers twist the news, they are playing to their unsuspecting readership and know that many people aren't interested in hearing both sides. It is always - U.S. Wrong - terrorists right.

PHOTO EDITING: TWO VIEWS OF THE SAME WAR

http://www.innovationsinnewspapers.com/ind...f-the-same-war/

same war.

Two different views.

Photo editing for “viewspapers.”

The power of choice.

[bush_cheney2004]

...Anyways Ray launches into these guys about putting out misleading facts, explains that he was there in the thick of the fighting. These guys tell him he does not know anything about it. At this point I'm in pure shock. A decorated Marine just told you eyewitness experience from not 1 but 2 tours of duty and you believe some piece of fact that he probably got off the internet?

These folks insist that Soldiers and Marines are telling the truth when they protest against the war in Iraq or Afghanistan.....not so the other way around. And so it goes.....

[kuzadd]

...Anyways Ray launches into these guys about putting out misleading facts, explains that he was there in the thick of the fighting. These guys tell him he does not know anything about it. At this point I'm in pure shock. A decorated Marine just told you eyewitness experience from not 1 but 2 tours of duty and you believe some piece of fact that he probably got off the internet?

These folks insist that Soldiers and Marines are telling the truth when they protest against the war in Iraq or Afghanistan.....not so the other way around. And so it goes.....

No one said he was lying, only you implied that was the case, why?

In fact I quantified probable children's deaths based on this ONE man eye witness acount.

Unfortunately based on ONE man's eyewitness account, on the number of deaths that he witnessed, he himself invalidates the claim made by the poster, that the people handing out the pamphlets were innacurate.

the poster claimed "he says he saw very few children" which means he saw a few children killed by American fire, math above.

Now to go back to my original question......

No one said he was lying, only you implied that was the case, why?

[sunsettommy]

Polynewbie:

I don't understand how Ray can call an Iraqui a terrorist when he is part of the invading force.

The same terrorists who kill their own and does not accept the ELECTED BY THE IRAQI PEOPLE government.

The "invading force" that topples a murderous thug and free the populace.

The same "invading force" that makes it possible for Iraq to form a democratic government.Thereby eliminating the dictatorship that was under Saddam the butcher.The bloodbaath party disposed of.

The same "invading force" that enforces the penalty for thumbing at all those U.N. resolutions over WMD for 12 years.

I don't understand how Ray being there makes him a better statician wrt casualties.

Well at least better than you since you said even less than he did over it.

LOL.

What does Ray think of the Geneva convention ?

At least he goes out of his way NOT to kill civilians including the children.The terrorists are killing civilians including children.They recently used children in a car bombing.

The terrorists have broken the Geneva convention many times and care less doing so.

I will skip the part where you attempt to divine what Ray thinks and go on to this last part:

There have been estimates by independent bodies of 500,000 dead Iraquis. 10,000 kids under 5 dead sounds reasonable. If you consider Iraq war 1 and Bushes sanctions its probably quite a bit higher than that.

It we the voting citizens that should be accepting the moral responsibility for the war, not Ray. Ray is no more responsible if it was wrong than we are.

Estimates that vary considerebly.

Meanwhile you seem willing to overlook the part where Saddam and his goons killed many HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS.Maybe as many as a MILLION (the high end of the estimates)Many with sadistic methods and bury them in sand.Already 100,000 + have been found in mass burials in the sand.

That Saddam for 12 years running fights against the UNITED NATIONS resolutions for not complying with the agreed documentation and destruction of WMD he admitted having.

That he and his sons and select goons raped women in rape rooms.Taking women from homes and killing the husbands.This went on for many years.

Terrorising the populace.

That Saddam was supporting terrorism with money and more.

Shelters international terrorists.

A menace to the region starting TWO wars.

Do you remember how the Iraqi people cheered at Saddams death?

Do you remember how the Iraqi people happily toppled his statue in Baghdad?

Do you know that Kurdistan is very happy of being liberated by coalition forces?

Do you realize that because he is gone Iraq could ELECT people into the government offices and that they have a constitution?

The only terror going on these days are from the so called insurgents (terrorists).Lately even the regional shieks are tired of the Al queda's destructive ways.Recently a surge in recruitments in the police and army forces has been noted and may have been because the Shieks want to help stop the terrorists and make a lot more money with a stable nation being more attractive to the worlds investers.

If they stop attacking and become part of a democratically elected nation.

Then the coalition forces will leave.

[Charles Anthony]

The same terrorists who kill their own and does not accept the ELECTED BY THE IRAQI PEOPLE government.

The "invading force" that topples a murderous thug and free the populace.

The same "invading force" that makes it possible for Iraq to form a democratic government.Thereby eliminating the dictatorship that was under Saddam the butcher.The bloodbaath party disposed of.

You are kidding. You think the Iraqi people are free?

You have NO right to make any of your claims until the foreign invaders are out of Iraq.

[M.Dancer]

Every Tuesday and Thursday my buddy Ray and I take lunch at this little Mexican restaurant in downtown Charlotte. A little about Ray, hes a bit younger than I at 26. He recently went Inactive with the United States Marine Corps. (squibbys that can shoot) He did two tours in Iraq. Was in the thick of the Fallujah campaign and also did a his first tour in Afghanistan. Anyways, were walking down the street and theres some Anti-war protesters handing out leaflets with statistics on the war. I see them coming up to us, and I try to distract Ray away. Not happening in this situation. He grabs the leaflet and reads it, and I can just see his face getting purple. The leaflet had some misleading facts. Like 20,000 children under 5 killed in the war. Which is just horse shit. Maybe 20k since operation desert storm maybe.

Anyways Ray launches into these guys about putting out misleading facts, explains that he was there in the thick of the fighting. These guys tell him he does not know anything about it. At this point I'm in pure shock. A decorated Marine just told you eyewitness experience from not 1 but 2 tours of duty and you believe some piece of fact that he probably got off the internet? Ray in a few drunk moments told me about being ambushed in Afghanistan by Terrorist who used a play ground as cover and shot 3 children. But other than that, he says he saw very few children killed as a result of US fire. The guy has no reason to lie to me about this stuff. He also helped build one of the first Hospitals in Fallujah. Did you know they can actually do heart surgery in Fallujah? Three years ago, they did not even have a hospital.

WHat makes Ray an expert on Iraqi mortality figures?

I would say 20,000 kids in 4 years might be pretty close to the mark....with over 1000 non combatant civilians being killed each and every month.......

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy:That Saddam was supporting terrorism with money and more.

Do you think that Saddam Hussein had something to do with 911 ? If so, what exactly ?

Kimmy:The same "invading force" that makes it possible for Iraq to form a democratic government.Thereby eliminating the dictatorship that was under Saddam the butcher.The bloodbaath party disposed of.

Iraq was the only middle eastern government that had Muslims, Christians and Jews sitting at the same table. The banking establishment does not like this because it depends on conflict to maintain control which is why they started the war against this nationalist government. Even Bush used the term "crusade" in describing the Iraq war.

kimmy:Do you remember how the Iraqi people happily toppled his statue in Baghdad?

I remember that - seeing the people on CNN pulling the statue down. Then I remember a another mainstream story with a wide angle camera view showing the scene surounded by American tanks and exposing the fact that those people pulling the statue down were prisoners with guns pointed at them.

[Black Dog]

Like 20,000 children under 5 killed in the war. Which is just horse shit. Maybe 20k since operation desert storm maybe.

Sounds like a reasonable number to me. Between 1991 and 2001, its estimated that there were between 350,000 and 500,000 excess deaths among children under the age of five. Given the war, the ongoing violence and the detrioration of services, 20,000 excess deaths since 2003 seems conservative.

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy:and bury them in sand

They buried 20,000 Irag Public Guards alive in Iraq War 1.

[PolyNewbie]

kimmy:I will skip the part where you attempt to divine what Ray thinks and go on to this last part:

These intentional re interpretations are a form of trolling.

[guyser]

Why Ray decided to take on a bunch of protesters is beyond me. Ray must know that the first casualty of war is the truth.

Ray has to know his govt got involved with faulty goods . But thats another thread.

The protesters put up numbers that may or may not be truthful in a final analysis, but neither are experts at determining that. So why bother ?

But I can certainly understand the frustration a soldier feels after returning from hell on earth only to be greeted by skepticism to his job, the very job that he envisioned signing up to do for the betterment of the American people. Only to find out that perhaps 50% of the people think it a bad idea in continually being there.

Its either that or he looked at his pay stub . We ask, on both sides of the border, that men and women risk their lives , yet we pay a pittance to them and worse, we ask (rather the US ones do) that they get treatment in a VA hospital.

Sure I' d be pissed too.

[PolyNewbie]

Anybody remember the anthrax attacks right after Sept 11 2001. These were shown to orginate from inside the US military establishment. The story was dropped.

[PolyNewbie]

guyser:Sure I' d be pissed too.

I'd be pissed at the American public for putting up with this nonsense if I was a soldier.

[guyser]

In any war, the facts take heavy casualties. In a war bleeding heart liberals hate, the truth is their number one target.

I happen to think that is the counterbalance to the conservative side trying to fudge the numbers . If Bush and Co had their way, the press would be allowed nothing .

[PolyNewbie]

Here is a nice picture of GW in the context of the war link

[guyser]

Here is a nice picture of GW in the context of the war link

And WTF does that have to do with anything ?

Really, is it your intention to poison EVERY GD thread with your conspiracies? We getit, you dont like Bush, Banks, Govt, 9-11 , puppy dogs , candy et al.

Sheesh..

[Black Dog]

PolyNewbie has started hallucinating as well: above he quotes kimmy twice despite her non-participation in this thread.

sunsettommy /= kimmy.

[PolyNewbie]

Black Dog:PolyNewbie has started hallucinating as well: above he quotes kimmy twice despite her non-participation in this thread.

I did. I often confuse the two when reading their posts.

Sorry.

[Black Dog]

Misleading facts, sure and here's how newspapers twist the news, they are playing to their unsuspecting readership and know that many people aren't interested in hearing both sides. It is always - U.S. Wrong - terrorists right.

PHOTO EDITING: TWO VIEWS OF THE SAME WAR

http://www.innovationsinnewspapers.com/ind...f-the-same-war/

same war.

Two different views.

Photo editing for “viewspapers.”

What's really odd about that blog post is that it shows the NYT's cover story on the Iraq war anniversary, and then shows a Miami Herald cover with nothing about Iraq at all.

So the text should have read:

"The Iraq war seen from Washington DC New York City (fear) and from Miami (hnope)."

[moderateamericain]

Misleading facts, sure and here's how newspapers twist the news, they are playing to their unsuspecting readership and know that many people aren't interested in hearing both sides. It is always - U.S. Wrong - terrorists right.

PHOTO EDITING: TWO VIEWS OF THE SAME WAR

http://www.innovationsinnewspapers.com/ind...f-the-same-war/

same war.

Two different views.

Photo editing for “viewspapers.”

What's really odd about that blog post is that it shows the NYT's cover story on the Iraq war anniversary, and then shows a Miami Herald cover with nothing about Iraq at all.

So the text should have read:

"The Iraq war seen from Washington DC New York City (fear) and from Miami (hnope)."

A definite variety of opinions there, and thats what i asked for and thats what I received. It is always interesting to see how people react to those situations. I think Ray has not quite left the desert so to speak. He does not like to talk about his friends that he lost there. But I have yet to meet a guy who does. All he says about the Iraqi populace is that they are the nicest people by day, they will smile at you as the detonate whatever IED they have. I think he got to the point where he treated every Iraqi as a possible terrorist.