jbg Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 "Us" implies that I am an American."Imperialism" is the US penchant for overthrow of even democratically elected leaders, installing brutal dictators when it fits our purposes, war as a business, and a belief that we can militarily take whatever we want. I am barely restraining myself, through clenched teeth, as I type. I am American, and I am extremely well aware that I am on a Canadian forum. I am well aware of the levels of anti-Americanism in your country. Frankly, I'm not impressed. Some of the people in your country, with views like yours, can stick your tongue out with impunity at the US, knowing full well that we are not imperialistic or agressive. If the Internet existed, oh, in 1956, do you think Hungarians would be making angry posts at the real imperialists, the former Soviet Union? Or in the China of Tianamen Square days, or even now, would the Chinese dare mock out their leaders? Or better yet, how about Tibetans? Would they deign to make assinine posts about the Chinese? < sarcasm>Oh no, they love their Chinese brothers, right? </ sarcasm> Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
August1991 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 Tribute? like oil? like the right of way to build pipelines? - or are you suggesting that tribute has to be jewel encrusted statues of birds?Most of the oil produced in the Middle East goes to Asia or Europe, not to the US. Moreover, the Iraqi government will collect royalties on any oil produced.If the US government wanted to invade a country to take its oil, it would make more sense to invade Alberta. like all tribute, it goes in the pockets of those in power- how much have the buschistas pocketed from this war? hundreds of billions! Wait a second.American taxpayers are paying for this war, not Iraqis. So if I understand your logic properly, Bush invaded Iraq so that he could take money from American taxpayers and shovel it to American corporations. Why did he need a war in Iraq to do that? He could have just funneled the money to the corporations directly - after all he's the president and has the power to raise taxes and spend money as he wants. No? Quote
sharkman Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 Come on august! You can't confuse the conspiracy theorists with facts, they just ignore them and continue with the brain on auto-pilot. Quote
GostHacked Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 This has been on TV, Cheney and others have made enourmous profits from these wars, the oil business will make enourmous profit from the wars and the banks will make much more than either of these two put togather (by math not what by mainstream is telling us). So who do you want to elect next time, the Rockefeller Democrats or the Rockefeller Republicans ? Congratulations. One of those sentences has correct grammer and syntax. Oops, no, it's the question at the end. Could you take some lessons either in Canadian or in English? In Canadian OR in English?? This makes as much sense to me as Polynewbie's post to you. This bothers me quite a bit. Pick on the grammer and syntax instead of the meat of the post. How about Polynewbie learn English... or perhands Canadian English. Cheney/Oil/Haliburton/Blackwater/big banks/military industrial complex. I think this is what he was getting at. Everyone in those companies high up are making a KILLING off the 'war on terror'. How many more billions need to be spent on the 'war on terror'. Or the better question is, where is the money comming from to pay for this new 'war on terror'. It seems like the US is borowing against 2 future generations. The reason I think countries are getting together is to fight this new imperialism. The US has been at this for the last 40 years. Venezuela is considered BAD in the US's eye. Pesky Venezuelans actually voted Hugo Chavez into office. Go figure. Those 'idiots' know nothing now right? Same with Iran? Iran has seen the US try to change it. Ousting the Sha (sp) back in the late 70's. Failed embassy rescue. Ect. All the countries that seem to be getting together on the same page are those that the US has pissed off, and they will not stand for it anymore. I am happy this is happening. Wilber Agree to thwart US domination my ass, more like filling their own pockets. All they have is oil, without its revenues they are nothing. Sometimes you have to work with what you got. And they are making the best of it with what they have. Also by that statement, you can say Agree to thwart 'terrorist states' my ass, more live filling their own pockets. All they need is oil, and without invading, there will be no revenues. Iran and Venezuela are offering something other than what the US provides. Can you force countries to deal with only the US or only Iran? Nope. Quote
Guthrie Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 This has been on TV, Cheney and others have made enourmous profits from these wars, the oil business will make enourmous profit from the wars and the banks will make much more than either of these two put togather (by math not what by mainstream is telling us). So who do you want to elect next time, the Rockefeller Democrats or the Rockefeller Republicans ? Congratulations. One of those sentences has correct grammer and syntax. Oops, no, it's the question at the end. Could you take some lessons either in Canadian or in English? Is grammar a proper debate point, in these halls? Perhaps it is an issue peculiar to you? Personally, I only object to improper word usage. If someone, for example, wants to discuss Canada's hegemony over parts of the arctic, I would point out the misuse of the word, 'hegemony.' Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
Wilber Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 Iran and Venezuela are offering something other than what the US provides. Can you force countries to deal with only the US or only Iran? Nope. Offering what other than oil? The reason I think countries are getting together is to fight this new imperialism. The US has been at this for the last 40 years. Venezuela is considered BAD in the US's eye. Pesky Venezuelans actually voted Hugo Chavez into office. Go figure. Those 'idiots' know nothing now right? Same with Iran? Iran has seen the US try to change it. Ousting the Sha (sp) back in the late 70's. Failed embassy rescue. Ect. The US didn't oust the Shah and they were trying to rescue their own people. Civilized countries who go to war don't even kidnap embassy personnel, they kick them out. Lets see them try and get Chavez out of office. It's pretty plain that he has visions of being the next Castro. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
jbg Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 In Canadian OR in English?? This makes as much sense to me as Polynewbie's post to you. This bothers me quite a bit. Pick on the grammer and syntax instead of the meat of the post. How about Polynewbie learn English... or perhands Canadian English. My point is that when someone starts a thread that's largely gibberish and takes up 53 pages of bandwidth, arguing that a tall building, struck by a plane, won't collapse, something is wrong. Cheney/Oil/Haliburton/Blackwater/big banks/military industrial complex. I think this is what he was getting at. Everyone in those companies high up are making a KILLING off the 'war on terror'. How many more billions need to be spent on the 'war on terror'. Or the better question is, where is the money comming from to pay for this new 'war on terror'. It seems like the US is borowing against 2 future generations. *** Agree to thwart 'terrorist states' my ass, more live filling their own pockets. All they need is oil, and without invading, there will be no revenues. Does that mean that we shouldn't fight terrorism? Does that mean that militant Islam is not out to enslave the world? You obviously do not understand. What Islamic country is doing well (other than oil plutocrats)? None. There's a reason for that. These countries have no work ethic. Why, for example, is Indonesia not more prosperous, overall (I mean the average person) than people in very similar Caribbean islands such as Barbados. They should be wealthier than Barbados (which is basically middle class) because they have oil. They're not. Obviously, the reason is lack of work ethic. The system of dhimmitude is based upon everyone but Muslims working, and supporting Muslims through payment of "ghiza" (sp) or tax paid by dhimmis. They get enraged when a country such as the US has the gonads not to listen to their garbage, but "tell it like it is". That's what's going on here. The reason I think countries are getting together is to fight this new imperialism. The US has been at this for the last 40 years. Venezuela is considered BAD in the US's eye. Pesky Venezuelans actually voted Hugo Chavez into office. Go figure. Those 'idiots' know nothing now right? Same with Iran? Iran has seen the US try to change it. Ousting the Sha (sp) back in the late 70's. Failed embassy rescue. Ect. Learn your history. I think you mean putting the Shah in for Mossadegh in 1953. Frankly, when American property is nationalized (stolen) that's what we should do. All the countries that seem to be getting together on the same page are those that the US has pissed off, and they will not stand for it anymore. I am happy this is happening. Wilber Would you move to one of those countries? If you couldn't stay in Canada, would you move to the US, Iran or Venezuela? Your choice. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
August1991 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 All the countries that seem to be getting together on the same page are those that the US has pissed off, and they will not stand for it anymore. I am happy this is happening.That's it really. You know nothing about these countries and you probably care even less.Your obsession is with the United States. You don't like it. You want to see someone, anyone, stand up to the bully. If Martians invaded Earth, you'd cheer them if they attacked the White House. There's a wonderful world all around you and yet you don't see it because of your obsession with the United States. Quote
Guthrie Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 Tribute? like oil? like the right of way to build pipelines? - or are you suggesting that tribute has to be jewel encrusted statues of birds?Most of the oil produced in the Middle East goes to Asia or Europe, not to the US. Moreover, the Iraqi government will collect royalties on any oil produced.If the US government wanted to invade a country to take its oil, it would make more sense to invade Alberta. like all tribute, it goes in the pockets of those in power- how much have the buschistas pocketed from this war? hundreds of billions! Wait a second.American taxpayers are paying for this war, not Iraqis. So if I understand your logic properly, Bush invaded Iraq so that he could take money from American taxpayers and shovel it to American corporations. Why did he need a war in Iraq to do that? He could have just funneled the money to the corporations directly - after all he's the president and has the power to raise taxes and spend money as he wants. No? Come on august! You can't confuse the conspiracy theorists with facts, they just ignore them and continue with the brain on auto-pilot. Facts??? sorry, you haven't a fact in both your posts put together http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum#Top...uming_countries ...Top petroleum-consuming countries 1. United States - 20,030,000 bbl/day ------- #1 consumes more than the next 6 countries combined 2. China - 6,391,000 bbl/day 3. Japan - 5,578,000 bbl/day 4. Russia - 2,800,000 bbl/day 5. Germany - 2,677,000 bbl/day 6. India - 2,320,000 bbl/day 7. Canada - 2,300,000 bbl/day ... Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
Wilber Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 The US imports almost the same amount of oil from Canada as it does from all of the Middle East. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
Black Dog Posted January 16, 2007 Report Posted January 16, 2007 I am barely restraining myself, through clenched teeth, as I type. I am American, and I am extremely well aware that I am on a Canadian forum.I am well aware of the levels of anti-Americanism in your country. Frankly, I'm not impressed. Some of the people in your country, with views like yours, can stick your tongue out with impunity at the US, knowing full well that we are not imperialistic or agressive. If the Internet existed, oh, in 1956, do you think Hungarians would be making angry posts at the real imperialists, the former Soviet Union? Or in the China of Tianamen Square days, or even now, would the Chinese dare mock out their leaders? Or better yet, how about Tibetans? Would they deign to make assinine posts about the Chinese? < sarcasm>Oh no, they love their Chinese brothers, right? </ sarcasm> The hubris in such rhetoric always cracks me up. "You're lucky you have the freedom to say what you want, but you should not excercise that freedom." The United States does have a penchant for overthrowing even democratically elected leaders (as jbg is advocating in this very thread), and installing brutal dictators when it fits their purposes. War is a business, and many Americans hold and treasure the belief that might makes right. Whaddaya gonna do? Quote
Guthrie Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 The US imports almost the same amount of oil from Canada as it does from all of the Middle East. except Canada is a petroleum importer to the tune of 963,000 bbl/day and the number one importer of Saudi oil is the USA - you guys really need to get your facts straight before you spew that crap https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/sa.html Exports - partners: US 16.4%, Japan 16.1%, South Korea 9.1%, China 6.9%, Singapore 5.1%, Taiwan 4.2% (2005) Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
Wilber Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 US oil imports Canada's imports are split between North Sea and Middle East oil. If Canada reduced exports to the US by the same amount it imports, would the US make up the difference entirely from the Middle East? Maybe, but they don't. Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 Canada's imports are split between North Sea and Middle East oil. If Canada reduced exports to the US by the same amount it imports, would the US make up the difference entirely from the Middle East? Maybe, but they don't. No, the US has a purposeful oil diversification strategy to avoid Jimmy Carter disease. Also, Canada actually imports oil and distillates from the USA because of refineries and distribution efficiencies between East and West. God bless the hydrocarbon economy....petrol derived from far away crude is still cheaper than a Diet Coke. My gas comes from Canada, and we surely do appreciate it! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Guthrie Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 Tribute? like oil? like the right of way to build pipelines? - or are you suggesting that tribute has to be jewel encrusted statues of birds?Most of the oil produced in the Middle East goes to Asia or Europe, not to the US. Moreover, the Iraqi government will collect royalties on any oil produced.If the US government wanted to invade a country to take its oil, it would make more sense to invade Alberta. ... and none of the current right wing spew defends the above - how predictable!! Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
blackascoal Posted January 17, 2007 Author Report Posted January 17, 2007 The US imports almost the same amount of oil from Canada as it does from all of the Middle East. If you live in Canada .. you should be worried about that. Of course, as usual, your facts are wrong .. but don't let that stop you. Quote
blackascoal Posted January 17, 2007 Author Report Posted January 17, 2007 "Us" implies that I am an American.You are aware that this is a Canadian forum? I frankly find your presumption self-centred and arrogant but not imperialistic."Imperialism" is the US penchant for overthrow of even democratically elected leaders, installing brutal dictators when it fits our purposes, war as a business, and a belief that we can militarily take whatever we want.What is the US "taking militarily"?To my knowledge, the US does not exact tribute from colonies. So I'm on a Canadian forum .. so what? And you couldn't possibly be dim enough to think that I actually care how you find my posts. Did you read a comment from me that said we exact tribute from colonies? Do you think I don't know why you didn't address what I actually said? Incredible. Quote
blackascoal Posted January 17, 2007 Author Report Posted January 17, 2007 "Us" implies that I am an American. "Imperialism" is the US penchant for overthrow of even democratically elected leaders, installing brutal dictators when it fits our purposes, war as a business, and a belief that we can militarily take whatever we want. I am barely restraining myself, through clenched teeth, as I type. I am American, and I am extremely well aware that I am on a Canadian forum. I am well aware of the levels of anti-Americanism in your country. Frankly, I'm not impressed. Some of the people in your country, with views like yours, can stick your tongue out with impunity at the US, knowing full well that we are not imperialistic or agressive. If the Internet existed, oh, in 1956, do you think Hungarians would be making angry posts at the real imperialists, the former Soviet Union? Or in the China of Tianamen Square days, or even now, would the Chinese dare mock out their leaders? Or better yet, how about Tibetans? Would they deign to make assinine posts about the Chinese? < sarcasm>Oh no, they love their Chinese brothers, right? </ sarcasm> Hmmm .. "anti-american" .. which I would define as that which works against the best interests of the United States .. and I can't think of anything more anti-american than the attack on Iraq which has isolated the US, wasted billions upon billions of taxpayer money, sent thousands of our own troops to their needless deaths, mass-murdered hundereds of thousands of innocent people, most of them women and children and committed atrocities before the gaze of the entire world, turned Iraq over to Iran another so-called enemy, made the US and the world less safe, and brought an end to the American Century .. all things that it appears you supported. Anti-American And I'm not Canadian, I'm just another of the VAST MAJORITY of AMERICANS, including many REPUBLICANS, who have rejected your nonsensical definition and idiotic right-wing "leadership". Why are you screaming at Canadians when the American people and planet earth feel the exact same way? Quote
August1991 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 ...and the number one importer of Saudi oil is the USA - you guys really need to get your facts straight before you spew that crapExports - partners: US 16.4%, Japan 16.1%, South Korea 9.1%, China 6.9%, Singapore 5.1%, Taiwan 4.2% (2005) Using your inexact data, America receives 16.4% of Saudi's exports and Asia receives at least 44.4%. That kind of was my point.More generally, Bush Jnr may have been a fool or just plain wrong to invade Iraq but he didn't invade Iraq for oil. The Left is/was barking up the wrong tree. Quote
August1991 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 So I'm on a Canadian forum .. so what?Well, posting on a Canadian forum and using "we" is kind of like a white guy walking into a NAACP meeting and saying "we". It just looks self-centred or arrogant or both. Quote
blackascoal Posted January 17, 2007 Author Report Posted January 17, 2007 So I'm on a Canadian forum .. so what?Well, posting on a Canadian forum and using "we" is kind of like a white guy walking into a NAACP meeting and saying "we". It just looks self-centred or arrogant or both. It's not that difficult to discern actually, given that I've qualified myself as an American many times. Interesting you used the "white guy" analogy given that I attended a Martin Luther King celebration, at an NAACP event, just yesterday, where I listened to several "white guys" using the term "we". I guess like me, they assumed that people had brains. Quote
jbg Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 If the Internet existed, oh, in 1956, do you think Hungarians would be making angry posts at the real imperialists, the former Soviet Union? Or in the China of Tianamen Square days, or even now, would the Chinese dare mock out their leaders? Or better yet, how about Tibetans? Would they deign to make assinine posts about the Chinese? < sarcasm>Oh no, they love their Chinese brothers, right? </ sarcasm> The hubris in such rhetoric always cracks me up. "You're lucky you have the freedom to say what you want, but you should not excercise that freedom." The United States does have a penchant for overthrowing even democratically elected leaders (as jbg is advocating in this very thread), and installing brutal dictators when it fits their purposes. War is a business, and many Americans hold and treasure the belief that might makes right. Whaddaya gonna do? As usual, you decline to respond to the a major portion of my remarks, which I culled from my post and left quoted. That is imperialism. Quote Free speech: "You can say what you want, but I don't have to lend you my megaphone." Always remember that when you are in the right you can afford to keep your temper, and when you are in the wrong you cannot afford to lose it. - J.J. Reynolds. Will the steps anyone is proposing to fight "climate change" reduce a single temperature, by a single degree, at a single location? The mantra of "world opinion" or the views of the "international community" betrays flabby and weak reasoning (link).
Liam Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 On top of new China and Russia alliances, and alliances throughout the arab/Persian world being formed to repel American military and political imperialist intentions, many Latin American countries are now joining together to stand against us.Many of these countries that are lining up against us are oil producing nations and are fast moving to the euro as a way of attacking our colonialist nature. Instead of galvanizing the world against "terror", all the hapless Bush Administrtaion has managed to do is distance and isolate us. Even the British people want no part of our reign of terror. Soon, the only "ally" we'll have left is Israel, a country devoid of resources, and one that consistently spies on us and marches to its own drummer. I would hardly characterize the friendship between Chavez and Ahmenijad as the world's lining up against US imperialism. Chavez and Ahmenijad are politicians who can fan the flames of their own supporters by rallying against the evil Yankee. Chavez realizes the grandfather of Latin Socialism, Fidel, will soon be joining Lenin in some bleak, nihilistic void, and wants to set himself up as the go-to guy in terms of Latin America's poor. Ahmenijad's popularity is on the decline in Iran and he wants to shore up his political support. Ask the average Venezuelan or Iranian what they think of the US and you'd probably get a mixed response trending toward positive. American movies, TV, innovations, economic successes, medical research, etc. are huge plusses. US military activity and lack of diplomacy, Guantanamo, etc. are huge minuses. The thing is, most of the minuses can be directly attributed to the Bush administration. Once Bush is gone and the US strikes out on a slightly different trajectory, I wager that US popularity will certainly not go down. For what it's worth, I think if you polled all the nations asking "would you rather be an ally of the US' or an ally of Iran/Venezuela's?" you'd find out pretty quickly that the US is far more popular, globally, than you're portraying. Without any scientific studies to back it up, I'd be willing to wager the results would be somewhere in the vicinity of 10:1 in favor of the US over Iran/Venezuela. Quote
Guthrie Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 I would hardly characterize the friendship between Chavez and Ahmenijad as the world's lining up against US imperialism. Of course not. Not by themselves. Coincidentally, they aren't by themselves. Quote “Most middle-class whites have no idea what it feels like to be subjected to police who are routinely suspicious, rude, belligerent, and brutal” - Benjamin Spock MD
Wilber Posted January 17, 2007 Report Posted January 17, 2007 The US imports almost the same amount of oil from Canada as it does from all of the Middle East. If you live in Canada .. you should be worried about that. Of course, as usual, your facts are wrong .. but don't let that stop you. As of November 06, of the top 15 exporters of crude oil to the US only three were in the Middle east and the total from those countries was 2.286 million barrels a day. The same month, 2.065 million were imported from Canada Quote "Never trust a man who has not a single redeeming vice". WSC
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