blackascoal

Blueblood, They don't need nor want the US to "sort out their own affairs". they can do that for themselves and they know that the US will sort things out to benefit the US FIRST and that we don't give a damn about their people. Look no further than the Oil Law the US is trying to push on the Iraqis. It is THEM telling the US to go fly a kite ..

Again, BIG difference between Iran and Palestine. They don't need our money .. in fact, the Iranians have converted to the euro .. but WE need their oil. Additionally, try convincing ANYONE that we should leave the middle east, where the oil is, alone. The Chinese and Russians would absolutely love your idea.

Yes, I pretty much agree with this synopsis, of how it will play out. Along with attempting to blow up some nuclear facilities. All they will be doing is ensuring the youth of Iran will turn against the west and stop pushing for democratization. Wasting soldier's lives on trash like that isn't worth it. Just cut them off like the palestinians. That strategy is working too well, they're killing each other. The Iranians don't need US dollars, and, NOT leaving them alone is the entire argument .. and there is a vast difference between the Iranians, who have oil, and the Palestinians, who have nothing.

I disagree. There is a quite discernable difference between left and right perspectives in America. The left has never supported this war and we are perpetyally anti-war except in defense. The right, on the other hand, has pretty much always supported this war until the the preponderance of evidence and failure changed their minds. I agree that there has been a melding of perspectives within the main political parties, but the political differences among American people remain intact .. which is why Hillary Clinton is booed by the left. She may have, out of political conveinence, decided that war is a good thing, but the left didn't. The Republicn Party was taken over by neocons .. who have nothing whatsoever to do with "liberalism" .. who led the party to disaster, but with the support and capitulation of mainstream conservatives. You guys should have fought against them long ago. By the same design, the Democratic Party was taken over by the DLC, which discounted the perspectives of liberals and the left .. which led to the rise of the idiot king. The political differences lie in outcomes, not TV.

And the MVP is ... Prince. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a1AegGKjY0...related&search=

Yes, I pretty much agree with this synopsis, of how it will play out. Along with attempting to blow up some nuclear facilities. All they will be doing is ensuring the youth of Iran will turn against the west and stop pushing for democratization. It would an absolutely mind-blowing ridiculous thing to do .. which is why I'm pretty sure the Bush Administration wants to do it.

Chavez and the people of Venezula can do whatever they want with THEIR resources .. no differently than America or Canada does whatevr they want with theirs. The people of Venezula can bestow whatever powers they want to THEIR leader. The oil corporations have made more money than God has since the invasion of Iraq. Perhaps Chavez has been reading Thomas Jefferson who declared that freedom from corporations was a basic human right. It is hypocritical of you to find nothing wrong with the people of Venezuela bestowing whatever powers they want to THEIR leader and out the other side of your mouth proclaim how evil the U.S. is when they have only done the exact same thing. Not that I'm surprised, but you can't tell up from down. Too bad the American people and those who understand things like "signing statements don't agree with you. Not that I'm surprised. Perhaps you can point out where Chavez or Venezula has EVER attempted to control ANY American resource .. but then again, you aren't too good at pointing shit out. Noticed that you didn't/couldn't actually debate anything I posted. Bluster seems to be your best debating assest.

Keep in mind that George Bush is the president. If an ex-drunk, ex-cocaine using-average-student-wartime-deserter-death-sentence-loving-failed-businessman can get elected president, I'm sure a few cigarettes and whatever else they can throw at him won't stop him. Hillary is getting boos .. he's getting standing ovations .. even at the same events.

If the US attacks Iran it will be through the air and sea only. There will be little to no ground forces. The mission will not be intended to do anything but create a face-saving illusion. America doesn't have the forces or intelligence capability to do anything else. Additionally, this would only be a quick strike because the Congress and the American people aren't buying war at this time. The US will blow some shit up, claim victory, and go home.

I'll answer your question by it's a strawman argument that completely misses the point. I'm an American and I'd rather live in America than Iran or Venezula, but I'd also rather live here than live in Canada. What's the point? I don't believe that where I happen to live gives me any more authority than what the color of my skin is .. and your question is dependent on what time it is. If asked that question 50 years ago, my answer would have been different. If the US continues its downward spiral as it is currently doing, 20 years from now your answer might be different .. and that is the point. The problem with your question, in my opinion, is that it's an escape from the mirror. Instead of looking at our own (America) reflection in the mirror, you seem to suggest that we look out the window at somebody else that might be uglier. I started this thread to discuss AMERICA and its faltering place in the world, which has only gotten worse since I first posted it. What Iran and Venezula have in common regarding US imperialim is that they've both been victims of it. .. Discussing whether one would rather live here or in one of the countries we've intervened in their political affairs to the detriment of their people and society is hardly germaine to the issue .. and it's a long ass way from honest discussion, in my opinion. Why not ask if one would rather live in New York or Hiroshima or Nagasaki? What is germaine is the blowback from our actions such as in Iran and Venezula .. and Hiroshima and Nagaski .. and Iraq .. and throughout the middle east .. and all of Latin America. But that takes the ability to look in the mirror, not out the window.

Didn't Chavez attempt a coup d'etat. If Canadian's view China as favorably as they view America then they need a serious kick in the ass. Their probably just ignorant about the world outside of Canada and the US. I didn't say America, I said Bush .. and that makes it completely understandable. And, it's the other way around. A coup was attempted on the Chavez government. Venezuela coup linked to Bush team Specialists in the 'dirty wars' of the Eighties encouraged the plotters who tried to topple President Chavez Sunday April 21, 2002 The Observer http://observer.guardian.co.uk/internation...,688071,00.html Any wonder why the name "Bush" is hated all over Latin America or why Chavez call Bush the devil?

"The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it always to be kept alive. " "The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government, and to protect its free expression should be our first object." "Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." Thomas Jefferson If Jefferson lived today, people like you would think he was "unpatriotic", "unamerican", and hated his own country. That's because you don't understand the difference between a citizen and a subject. A citizen has a right and a duty to question his government .. and because American citizens understand that, the truth of the fraud of electronic voting has been exposed. Neither political party led this challenge, in fact, both stood in the way. American citizens, activists, and technology professionals, did the researcg, documentation, and exposure. Politicians were forced to follow along behind. I post this because I'm proud to have been one of those citizens. Subjects played no part in this effort. They simply did what they were told and thought what they were told to think .. as you seem to be implying is the "American" thing to do. "My culture and generation" would be that of the 60's and my rebellion and resistance to FEAR is quite indicative of that time .. a resistance that brought about great social and political changes in America. If you look closely, you'll see a lot of the same elements desire for change in the American people today. Keeping America true to it's values, principles, and greatness are the responsibility of citizens, not politicians nor corporations, nor scary people. Too bad you don't understand that. My advice is that you could spend your time better sticking to issues, which I'll gladly debate you on, rather than trying to define me because I simply don't care. I appear to understand democracy a lot better than you do. Dissent against bad government is a critical component of any successful democracy, and democracy, like life, is dynamic, not static. Now if you'd like to debate the merits of electronic voting and try to demonstrate that nothing is wrong with it, I can tell you up front that you will lose that argument .. badly. I'm a DBA, I know software, and I've worked on this issue for at least 6 years. Start with "software negative votes Leon County Florida" .. search on that. get back to me.

Then again, you aren't Venezulan. Bet they wouldn't choose Bush, and in their country, theirs is the only opinion that really counts. In Venezula, 63% have an unfavorable view of Bush .. and in America, 64% have an unfavorable view of Bush. Damn, they seem to hate him almost as much as we do. From the polls I've seen, Canadians view China with about as much favorability as they view Bush, so Chavez may have better numbers than Bush even in Canada. At least he leads a democracy.

The president has the power to respond to provocation and attack, which is the case they are trying to build with "seized Iranian weapons" and "seized Iranian agents". He can respond to a created "provocation" which is what Zbigniew Brzezinski is warning the US Congress of right now. He almost came right out and said that we did 9/11 and are capable of doing it again. Then the Bush Administration can claim "defense" as their rationale. However, nobody is buying it this time and Brzezinski's warning may have complicated their plans even further.

Chavez and the people of Venezula can do whatever they want with THEIR resources .. no differently than America or Canada does whatevr they want with theirs. The people of Venezula can bestow whatever powers they want to THEIR leader. The oil corporations have made more money than God has since the invasion of Iraq. Perhaps Chavez has been reading Thomas Jefferson who declared that freedom from corporations was a basic human right. Perhaps Chavez, as is the rest of the world, aware of the Oil Law that the Bush Administration is pushing on the Iraqis which gives extrodinary control of Iraq's oil resources to western corporations for an exagerrated price and for an exagerrated period. Perhaps Chavez is aware of the hand that US and British oil corporations played when Iran nationalized their oil resources .. and the US and British governments overthrew Iran's democratically elected government to install a brutal dictator that immediately gave the oil back to the oil corporations .. especially given that the CIA has already tried to topple his democratically elected government but failed. Perhaps Chavez is aware that there ain't shit the US can do about what he has to say or do in HIS country. What are you suggesting, that we now attack Venezula .. while we're attacking Iran .. and attacking Iraq .. and attacking Afghanistan .. and making plans to attack Syria .. all by ourselevs? NATO wants out of Afghanistan .. and just about everybody has already left Iraq. The British and Japanese will be leaving any minute now. All by ourselves See, didn't mention the idiot once.

It appears that there is another voice that knows the ins and out of US foreign policy, military and intelligence operations, and deceptions and coverups, who believes the Bush Administration is capable not only of the deceit of 9/11 .. but should be watched so they don't do it again. A political bombshell from Zbigniew Brzezinski Ex-national security adviser warns that Bush is seeking a pretext to attack Iran 2 February 2007 http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/feb2007/brze-f02_prn.shtml You can dismiss a man with Brzezinski's knowledge and experience if you choose .. but the fraud of 9/11 is unraveling. Soon, lots of people will be talking as the Bush Administration's power continues to wane. Just like the fraud of Iraq and all the other frauds and deceptions by this administration that are now known. Many of the frauds were revealed by those who were inside the administration, like Colin Powell and Richard Perle. So, shall the 9/11 fraud be revealed, and there will be nowhere to hide, and all the volumes and pages of excuses and ignorance and fear of reality, will be added to the pages of denial about the truth of the US attack on Iraq. There's no need to argue about obvious truth to those who refuse to see .. many of whom were the same people who couldn't see the truth of Iraq until they were overwhelmed by it. The truth is already known and ye shall be overwhelmed by it.

Perhaps you can list all the other nations in the world that are saying that Iran should be attacked .. or you can continue to hide behind the "blame it on the jews" escape clause. The world, including all Arab/Islamic, nations don't want it to happen .. the American people don't want it to happen .. democrat AND republican politicians don't want it to happen .. military planners in and out of the Pentagon don't want it to happen .. YOU claim you don't want it to happen .. tell me just who is it, outside of Isreal, that is calling for an attack on Iran? Of course, your escape clause or calling me a name would be much easier than answering the question.

Few people within the US are dumb enough to believe that ANY attack on Iran would be in our best interest. Even the warhawks like McCain and Hillary Clinton are now backing down as they recognize there is no support for it. The ONLY nation on earth pushing for an attack is Israel and if they want to attack Iran, then THEY and ONLY THEY should try it. Israel has its own military and only they should do the dying and pay the consequences for such a foolish misadventure.

A political bombshell from Zbigniew Brzezinski http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/feb2007/brze-f02_prn.shtml 9/11 anyone?

No doubt that you were wondering the same thing about Iraq, Afghanistan, and Vietnam. While you're "wondering" .. the American people have decided.

Any attack on Iran would unleash genies out of the bottle that America has no plans to deal with .. no different that what has happened in Iraq. The focus solely on military power is misguided, and in the face of what is before us today, quite non-sensical. Focusing solely on military power is the exact same snake oil that led the US to believe that Iraq would be a "cakewalk" .. and why I titled this thread as I did. Even the US military is not convinced that it would make any sense .. nor the politicians .. nor the American people. LAST STAND: The military’s problem with the President’s Iran policy. http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060710fa_fact

Iran's Point Defense Upgraded Wednesday, 10 May 2006 http://www.iranmilitaryforum.com/index.php...id=58&Itemid=54 excerpt ... Not suggesting that Iran is the most formidable military power, only that it is better than during the Iraq/Iran conflict and attacking Iran would not be the cakewalk sugested by others. There is no military solution for Iran that will not hurt US interests as much or even more. Diplomacy is the only option that makes any sense.

Bet you can't back that up either..... Not going to play this silly game with you. Clear signal that I've won this argument.

Sure it is.....do you have a reputabel source for that airclaim? I have plenty and so does anyone who knows how to get them .. which does not matter to you so I won't burden you with it. You made the claim that the Iranian military isn't any better than it was in the 80's .. so how about you backing that up.

First, the US has no ability to "eliminate the Iranian leadership" PERIOD, especially from the air. Any attack would only solidify the current leadership. Most of the world, including the American people, believe that getting rid of the current AMERICAN leadership would make the world safer. Secondly, the Iranian military is far superior today than it was during the Iraq/Iran conflict .. and it has far more allies. In fact, they would have more allies than the US would or does. Even moderate Arab states don't want Iran attacked. Additionally, the US has troops stationed in Iraq and throughout the region who would immediately be facing a far worse challenge than what they face today in an already lost cause .. AND the US economy would suffer tremendously with such an attack. The US could not meet all the challenges it would face without a military draft and there is no question whatsoever that the American people aren't going to buy into such a mindless course. Finally, what would be the point of attacking Iran? .. The US cannot eliminate the Iranian leadership by such an attack and we cannot ensure that any hardened nuclear facility would be destroyed. Iran, at some point, will acquire nuclear weapons and there is nothing the US can do to prevent that.