Jesus Camp

[bradco]

I agree with Canadian Blue. But I don't see anything wrong with the movie. What kind of hypocrite would you have to be to judge this movie or what these people are doing? They are Zealous, take joy in their faith, and with the people around them. How can someone be brainwashed with what they already believe is true? Can a man be brainwashed into believing that he needs to breathe to live?

And who are you to say what is good, and what is right? Doesn't Jesus himself teach about the Zealous without knowledge? They have the Zeal but no knowledge, so their faith is worthless. Jesus says he is truth, so those who are following his teachings, have the knowledge and their Zeal is justified.

When in doubt of yours or others actions, judge it according to the honor of God. Aren't they honoring God by giving him the glory that is his? According to their own Bible, there is nothing to judge of them.

The issue for me isnt with the adults positions vis-a-vis god and their religion. My issue with what this film reveals is how children are being used and manipulated. For example, in the movie you see a 5 year old kid talking about he decided to be "born again" because he found is life empty and void of meaning. Like come on, your 5 years old thats bs. Thats what his parents, his church etc has told him. No real 5 year old kids worry about their lives being void of meaning. I guess Im just thankful my parents didnt force any beliefs on me and provided alternative views, allowing me to decide what i thought was right and not "brain washing" me to their beliefs when I was young.

[bradco]

The extent of the brainwashing/mental warfair on the children is unbelievable. At times the preaching was borderline...almost inciting hatred. Some of the kids scared the crap out of me to be honest!

Unbelievable?

How about a camp that teaches kids about killing others by strapping bombs on themselves and committing suicide. All for the good of God.

And you worry about Jesus kids?

My worrying about radical Christian camps doesnt mean I dont worry about radical Islamic camps. It never ceases to amuse how we call radical Islamists the worst evil on the planet yet compare ourselves to them. We shouldnt be saying "o well we're not as bad as them". We should be striving to better our society.

For the record the camp is unbelievable under what i would consider civilized and modernized norms. The camp leader pretty much says that "we" need to start getting as militant as the islamist radicals. To me that is basically forfeiting the war on terror.

The camp has small children dancing around in army fatigues and war paint chanting and crying. Thats not unbelievable to you? The film shows a camp leader asking children whther they want to give their lifes for jesus and them screaming and saying yes, it shows a young girl talking about wanting to be a martyr. To me this all pretty unbelievable by my standard of what a civlized society should look like.

[bradco]

I've had strangers knocking on my door, handing me leaflets (Jehovah's Witness). It could be annoying and an inconvenience for some to be bothered answering the door...however, for some of the comments I've read from that link ("I would slap her face, etc...)...I think those reactions or statements are way too extreme when a polite "no, thanks." would've sufficed.

Again, I can't help but compare the reactions of those who would bash and criticise the girl (and her "trainers") for just giving what you might say is a "sales pitch", which is quite harmless really (even if you think it is fanatism)...

...But, I've yet to hear some of you who had openly ridiculed and openly criticized this girl with contempt, do the same thing to those religious fanatics who strap bombs on themselves and blow up innocent people.

Can you please explain why your reactions towards this girl is different from those fanatics who deliberately kill?

Its not different. Id be the first to criticise any religous fanaticism. Attempting to paint liberals as proponents of radical Islam and terrorists is a typical right wing conservative fetish, trickery, that is dishonest and really becoming quite tiring. No liberal supports any terrorism. The thing is liberals dont focus that much on criticising Islamic terrorism simply because it is implied we are against it. I see nothng wrong with worrying more about the fate of our own society anyways.

For the record, I dont criticise the girl. I feel sorry that she isnt being taught to think openly and critically. Theres nothing wrong with religious sales pitches in general, I dislike them but I accept the right of others to give them. When the Jehovahs Witneeses come to my door I always take their reading material and actually read it, out of interest. My problem is giving this sales pitch to children who are at an age where they are very impressionable and will believe anything from an adult figure of authourity (trust me I work with young children, its true). Its my belief we should all have the chance to decide for ourselves, when we are mentally capable of doing so, what religion (or no religion) is right for us. One of the priests flat out says its good to get em while theyre young and impressionable....I have issues with that

[Black Dog]

Unbelievable?

How about a camp that teaches kids about killing others by strapping bombs on themselves and committing suicide. All for the good of God.

And you worry about Jesus kids?

I worry about Jesus kids, who will one day grow and become Jesus voters, a helluva lot more than I worry about suicide bombers. I'm from Alberta fer chrissakes. Oh sure, the methods may be different, but the ends are still repulsive.

As anoher observation, I sure wonder about just how peaceful radical Chrsitians really are, given their embrace of violent rhetoric and imagery.

[DarkAngel_]

Unbelievable?

How about a camp that teaches kids about killing others by strapping bombs on themselves and committing suicide. All for the good of God.

And you worry about Jesus kids?

I worry about Jesus kids, who will one day grow and become Jesus voters, a helluva lot more than I worry about suicide bombers. I'm from Alberta fer chrissakes. Oh sure, the methods may be different, but the ends are still repulsive.

As anoher observation, I sure wonder about just how peaceful radical Chrsitians really are, given their embrace of violent rhetoric and imagery.

i dont worry about their vote, personally, i worry about their motive once they grow up TO vote. we need a less stubern beleif system. or our own kids will be fighting a war for THEIR god, but i do beleive the faith should not be attacked, though id disagree with the method, and result for that matter, we need to keep a higher moral standered, or we are no better then them (religous radicalistes), i think this is an outrage, dancing to a god? is that not looked down upon in the bible?

[betsy]

Here's a thought experiment for you to try. Imagine the same blonde girl at the same bowling alley, sitting and drinking her coffee in peace. She is approached by a cute little girl with a loving religious message:

"Hi! Um, I just want to let you know that Allah loves you very much, and he hopes that you will join him in paradise some day. That's why I have to tell you that you need to cover your hair, and wear modest clothes, and not go out without a male relative to escort you. Please follow Allah's teaching so that you can go to paradise some day."

-k

A Muslim girl comes to me saying that...I'd just be polite and treat her the same as I would any solicitor. It's a different story when they start to sit down and open up the Bible/Koran...and start preaching.

Or when they start getting pushy and wouldn't take no for an answer. I had one jehovah Witness who wouldn't budge even though I told her I was busy. Finally I just said "bye...." and closed the door. I didn't slam it.

Sure it sounds annoying. But then there's a difference when the annoyance comes from a kid. It's the same as when they come knocking on your door, interrupting you in the middle of something...selling chocolates...or asking donations/sponsorship for some sports (especially when we aren't into sports)...but still, we support them in their little endeavors, and if we totally disapprove, as civilized people we decline graciously or politely. No need to be rude.

It's the viciousness...and the fantasy of violence towards the girl, or anyone who might have approached them with Jesus (as one of the comment emphasized)...that came as a shock to me. In a way, I am glad that you've given that link for it really opened my eyes.

[betsy]

My problem is giving this sales pitch to children who are at an age where they are very impressionable and will believe anything from an adult figure of authourity (trust me I work with young children, its true). Its my belief we should all have the chance to decide for ourselves, when we are mentally capable of doing so, what religion (or no religion) is right for us. One of the priests flat out says its good to get em while theyre young and impressionable....I have issues with that

Our parents are our main adult figures of authority. We learn values from them. I don't see any difference learning and growing up in their beliefs from learning simple table manners and other things we normally learn from home.

Anyway, how many among us decide to think for ourselves when we reach teenhood? Isn't it the norm for teens to usually make an exaggerated effort to go against their parents' teachings and beliefs?

Well, as for exploitation of kids...I have a problem seeing the schools, with the help of parents...get children go door-to-door selling products. Yes, companies give donations to schools...or the schools raise funds from these....but the companies end up taking advantage of these children.

A 9 year old girl was trying to get subscriptions of magazines (mainstream glamour popular names)....she was hoping to reach a quota of subscribers so she can have the prize: a limo ride.

The companies know that no one can refuse children...especially grandparents and other close relations and friends of the families.

I know it has merits...teamwork or learning how to go for it...etc.., But it's still exploitation, because somebody is makig a profit out of the labor of these children.

[betsy]

My problem is giving this sales pitch to children who are at an age where they are very impressionable and will believe anything from an adult figure of authourity (trust me I work with young children, its true).

Sports give such "sales pitch." The little leagues, being rallied by coaches. Every now and then, we see proof that it is more than just an innocent fun game...when we hear of brawls breaking out among parents and coaches! Yes, it is not about religous belief that they preach....but about behaviour, or conduct.

How many kids are really not into sports...but doing it any way...to please a dad...or because it is expected of him to do so?

It is a part of life that parents steer their children into some directions.

[betsy]

i think this is an outrage, dancing to a god? is that not looked down upon in the bible?

I think you are referring to worshipping idols. But as to dancing for God in the bible...I think it was King David who danced, and if I'm not mistaken God was pleased with him. hence some Christian denominations include dancing in their services.

[betsy]

[ All I meant to do hear is re-articulate and emphasize your intial point that when I talk about my tastes and/or religious preferences that I am really saying that I can't speak for anyone else...

Because I cannot...and don't want to presume how others might feel. I cannot answer for them. That's all.

I was answering Dark Angel's question: Do we really need faith?

Thus I answered: I can only answer for myself alone. I need my faith.

[blueblood]

Unbelievable?

How about a camp that teaches kids about killing others by strapping bombs on themselves and committing suicide. All for the good of God.

And you worry about Jesus kids?

I worry about Jesus kids, who will one day grow and become Jesus voters, a helluva lot more than I worry about suicide bombers. I'm from Alberta fer chrissakes. Oh sure, the methods may be different, but the ends are still repulsive.

As anoher observation, I sure wonder about just how peaceful radical Chrsitians really are, given their embrace of violent rhetoric and imagery.

They are just as scary as the followers of Lenin, both sides of the extreme scare me.

[betsy]

Well, actually, in talking about ethics and morality in the public sphere it has traditionally been agreed among the learned men of a number of religions (for example, see maimonedes the medieval jewish thinker, St. Thomas Aquinas the medeival christian thinker, and muslims help me out here since my memory has failed me... I think the medieval muslim thinker was called Al Fassad) who debated with one another and agreed that the language of "reason" and not "faith" is the proper way to communicate ethical and moral theorems across religious boundaries. In other words, it has been agreed upon during times far more civil than ours that religious faith was not an appropriate basis upon which to publicly discuss morality.

I don't know much about that so I cannot really say anything.

Your question which I answered to was: "But if you aren't buying, why should the morality associated with this thing that you are free to buy (or not) be proposed as a matter for public implemetation? Likewise, why should the morality associated with your religion, a religion you imply is merely a matter of taste, be proposed as a model for public behaviour?"

But what I do know is that the values of colonizers usually end up getting into the system of colonized countries....which is only understandable if they're the ones who established the politics and the laws... of course their religious values are understandably reflected into those laws.

The pioneers /colonizers of America are Christians. So the model for public behaviour that was established by those pioneers/colonizers reflect the Christian values.

[betsy]

It looks as though you have said as much in your previous posts when you likened religion to a mere matter of taste which we are free to enjoy or not.

Unless you belong to a society in which you are forced into it.

[betsy]

In contrast, reason aims for (though often falls short... however, it is the best we have) truth, justice, and beauty. None of these are thought to be a matter of preference. Earlier, I suggetsed that if you thought there was some important truth in your religious convictions then you ought to be willing to share it by reasoning with us about how to come to see that truth. However, you have yet to give us any reason to buy your religious doctrine, and by extension the moralities grounded in it that go beyond an appeal to preference. If you cannot compell us to share in your faith then on what grounds would we be compelled to accept, as valid, any of your moralising(s)?

Faith and reason do not go hand in hand.

Faith is believing in something that has no proof.

[betsy]

[As for the pioneers who built the "foundation" of this country and their religions, I guess you would have to be a little more specific about what you take to be the 'foundations' you refer to. I assume you are not talking about the firts-nations people of Cananda who often subscribed to some variation of animist and mystical religious belief before white intervention, though there are many reasons why they should be thought of as foundational peoples. Maybe you are talking about the French catholicism that came to North america with the fur trade (is this the foundation you mean?), or perhaps the English protestantism that came with England's imperialist aspirations and was integral in setting up confederation. Perhaps by 'foundations' you mean those eastern Europeans (ie. Ukrainians, et al) who came and setteled much of the agricultural land of the prairies and brought with them their brand of Christian orthodoxy. Or maybe by 'foundation' you meant the railroad and were refering to the large chinese population that came here and brought their buddhist, confucian, daoist, etc, beliefs with them. Or perhaps when you say 'foundation' you mean those contemporary labourors (often though not always immigrants) who work at many of the least desirable jobs in canada and yet contribute in the most foundational ways to the continued operation of society. These people bring a number of religions with them ranging from hinduism, to muslim, to other varied forms of christianity. At any rate you might want to start a new thread if you are going to make any serious attempt to answer this question... or maybe we should move over to the Canada's history thread that I think is already running.

See post #87.

[betsy]

my point is that i see beleif as reason to kill, as well as die, or live.

If there is nothing to live or die for......what's the meaning of life?

[gnam]

In contrast, reason aims for (though often falls short... however, it is the best we have) truth, justice, and beauty. None of these are thought to be a matter of preference. Earlier, I suggetsed that if you thought there was some important truth in your religious convictions then you ought to be willing to share it by reasoning with us about how to come to see that truth. However, you have yet to give us any reason to buy your religious doctrine, and by extension the moralities grounded in it that go beyond an appeal to preference. If you cannot compell us to share in your faith then on what grounds would we be compelled to accept, as valid, any of your moralising(s)?

Faith and reason do not go hand in hand.

Faith is believing in something that has no proof.

My question stands... on what grounds should any of your moral views, grounded as they are in a religious belief that you yourself say people are free to adopt or not as they see fit, carry any weight with anyone?

In other words, why do you think your moral opinions should matter to anyone who does not shre your taste?

[betsy]

In contrast, reason aims for (though often falls short... however, it is the best we have) truth, justice, and beauty. None of these are thought to be a matter of preference. Earlier, I suggetsed that if you thought there was some important truth in your religious convictions then you ought to be willing to share it by reasoning with us about how to come to see that truth. However, you have yet to give us any reason to buy your religious doctrine, and by extension the moralities grounded in it that go beyond an appeal to preference. If you cannot compell us to share in your faith then on what grounds would we be compelled to accept, as valid, any of your moralising(s)?

Faith and reason do not go hand in hand.

Faith is believing in something that has no proof.

My question stands... on what grounds should any of your moral views, grounded as they are in a religious belief that you yourself say people are free to adopt or not as they see fit, carry any weight with anyone?

In other words, why do you think your moral opinions should matter to anyone who does not shre your taste?

Why would you think your moral opinions should matter to anyone who does not share your views?

No one is forcing you to accept views and opinions you don't agree to. And I surely think, (and I should hope not), you do not believe in forcing anyone to accept yours either...do you?

So we're back to what I've said before: at the end of the day...it boils down to your own choice (if you live in a free society). If you don't like the show on tv...simply switch the channel. Or turn it off.

This practice of free will in a free society makes life and decision-making less complicated.

[jefferiah]

In contrast, reason aims for (though often falls short... however, it is the best we have) truth, justice, and beauty. None of these are thought to be a matter of preference. Earlier, I suggetsed that if you thought there was some important truth in your religious convictions then you ought to be willing to share it by reasoning with us about how to come to see that truth. However, you have yet to give us any reason to buy your religious doctrine, and by extension the moralities grounded in it that go beyond an appeal to preference. If you cannot compell us to share in your faith then on what grounds would we be compelled to accept, as valid, any of your moralising(s)?

Faith and reason do not go hand in hand.

Faith is believing in something that has no proof.

My question stands... on what grounds should any of your moral views, grounded as they are in a religious belief that you yourself say people are free to adopt or not as they see fit, carry any weight with anyone?

In other words, why do you think your moral opinions should matter to anyone who does not shre your taste?

Lol. Has the military wing of Jesus camp busted down your door, gnam, and forced you to join them?

[betsy]

The film shows a camp leader asking children whther they want to give their lifes for jesus and them screaming and saying yes, it shows a young girl talking about wanting to be a martyr. To me this all pretty unbelievable by my standard of what a civlized society should look like.

Although it is being refuted by others, remember Cassie Bernall? She's one of the victims from the Columbine massacre who was asked "Do you believe in Jesus?" ...to which she tearfully replied, "yes," and right after, the killer pulled the trigger.

The Amish children massacre that happened recently involved the older girls asking the killer to spare the small children, and offered their lives instead.

How many young children..or even teens...would willingly offer their lives, in exchange for others?

To me, this is not unbelievable. Faith had given these children who died, the strength...the courage...or the dignity, at least....to face the horror that came.

[betsy]

My problem is giving this sales pitch to children who are at an age where they are very impressionable and will believe anything from an adult figure of authourity (trust me I work with young children, its true). Its my belief we should all have the chance to decide for ourselves, when we are mentally capable of doing so, what religion (or no religion) is right for us. One of the priests flat out says its good to get em while theyre young and impressionable....I have issues with that

A 9 year old girl was trying to get subscriptions of magazines (mainstream glamour popular names)....she was hoping to reach a quota of subscribers so she can have the prize: a limo ride.

The companies know that no one can refuse children...especially grandparents and other close relations and friends of the families.

I know it has merits...teamwork or learning how to go for it...etc.., But it's still exploitation, because somebody is makig a profit out of the labor of these children.

I failed to add that I declined the girl's pitch for magazine subscriptions. I guess her mother felt slighted because of that....and didn't speak to me for years.

But you see how kids are being used here by the companies...through schools and the childrens' parents?

And we're no longer talking $3.00 worth...the minimum subscription from what I remember was around $20.

I feel the method of coercion being applied by companies' marketing tactics.

[kimmy]

Unbelievable?

How about a camp that teaches kids about killing others by strapping bombs on themselves and committing suicide. All for the good of God.

And you worry about Jesus kids?

I worry about Jesus kids, who will one day grow and become Jesus voters, a helluva lot more than I worry about suicide bombers. I'm from Alberta fer chrissakes. Oh sure, the methods may be different, but the ends are still repulsive.

When I see Muslims in traditional garb bumping around town, I feel a negative reaction. And it's not because I suspect that this person is planning to blow something up. When Muslims complain that people look at them as possibly terrorists, that's not it at all. I really don't. That's not what causes me to react negatively. My reaction is because I suspect that this person looks at me as (to coin a phrase) "a piece of uncovered meat."

If I'm face to face with a woman who believes that it's a sin if more than her face or her hands are showing... uh, I guess that makes me a sinner. There's a judgment implied. I don't blame her for dressing as she believes she has to, but at the same time, it's a very visual signal that we have different world views and that I don't conform to her idea of what's moral. And try as we might, that's going to color our interactions.

If conservative Muslims had the power to make rules in this country, my life would be a lot different. And as you say, if conservative Christians had the power to make rules in this country, or this province, my life would be different too.

But the hardcore Christians don't visually identify themselves... if they're judging me, they seem to keep it to themselves.

As anoher observation, I sure wonder about just how peaceful radical Chrsitians really are, given their embrace of violent rhetoric and imagery.

On that note, another clip from Jesus Camp. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JECP9qzjmF0

Becky, one of the adults, explains that they work with kids because their enemies work with kids. She notes that in the middle east, kids are taught at a young age to fight and die for their religion, and incredibly, she approves:

"I want to see young people who are as committed to the cause of Jesus Christ as the young people who are committed to the cause of Islam. I want to see them as radically laying down their lives for the Gospel as they are in Pakistan and Israel and Palestine and all those different places, because, excuse me, but we have the Truth."

-kimmy

[Charles Anthony]

My reaction is because I suspect that this person looks at me as (to coin a phrase) "a piece of uncovered meat."

Turn that around: if women can be free to dress scantily (I believe they should have that right), is it fair for them to complain that men do not look at their eyes? or to "see them for the person they truly are" yadda yadda yadda?

[kimmy]

Here's a thought experiment for you to try. Imagine the same blonde girl at the same bowling alley, sitting and drinking her coffee in peace. She is approached by a cute little girl with a loving religious message:

"Hi! Um, I just want to let you know that Allah loves you very much, and he hopes that you will join him in paradise some day. That's why I have to tell you that you need to cover your hair, and wear modest clothes, and not go out without a male relative to escort you. Please follow Allah's teaching so that you can go to paradise some day."

A Muslim girl comes to me saying that...I'd just be polite and treat her the same as I would any solicitor. It's a different story when they start to sit down and open up the Bible/Koran...and start preaching.

Or when they start getting pushy and wouldn't take no for an answer. I had one jehovah Witness who wouldn't budge even though I told her I was busy. Finally I just said "bye...." and closed the door. I didn't slam it.

If an adult came up to me and told me that if I didn't put on a burqa I would go to hell, there'd be harsh words, and maybe punches. If an adult came up to me and was more polite about it, I'd probably be more polite about it, but the message would be about the same: mind your own business.

If they sent a little kid to do their dirty work, I guess I'd try to spare the kid's feelings.

But at its core, it's all the same. If someone approaches you with a religious message, it basically boils down to this: "follow our teachings or you'll go to hell." And however polite they might be about it, it's still a message that I don't really give a crap about hearing.

-k

[Higgly]

When I see Muslims in traditional garb bumping around town, I feel a negative reaction. And it's not because I suspect that this person is planning to blow something up. When Muslims complain that people look at them as possibly terrorists, that's not it at all. I really don't. That's not what causes me to react negatively. My reaction is because I suspect that this person looks at me as (to coin a phrase) "a piece of uncovered meat."

If I'm face to face with a woman who believes that it's a sin if more than her face or her hands are showing... uh, I guess that makes me a sinner. There's a judgment implied. I don't blame her for dressing as she believes she has to, but at the same time, it's a very visual signal that we have different world views and that I don't conform to her idea of what's moral. And try as we might, that's going to color our interactions.

If conservative Muslims had the power to make rules in this country, my life would be a lot different. And as you say, if conservative Christians had the power to make rules in this country, or this province, my life would be different too.

But the hardcore Christians don't visually identify themselves... if they're judging me, they seem to keep it to themselves.

Kimmy, you say you suspect that Moslems are judging you, but go on to say that if Christians are judging you, they keep it to themselves. Sorry to say, but I think it's all in your head.