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bradco

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Don't forget who was burning witches a few centuries ago, kind of the time space where the cave dwelling muslims are now.

That's kind of a stretch, don't you think so?

I wouldn't compare burning witches at the stake to telling Muslims to stop supporting hatred and advocating death to non-believers....and to make their radicals to stop from making themselve martyrs by blowing up innocent people. For one, there's no muslim being imprisoned for attending mosque service....and second,this reaction is due to a norm called, self-preservation!

BUT I would compare Burning Witches a few centuries ago to the kind of agenda some lefties would want to impose: banning second-hand smoke from homes. This opens up the way to a full witch-hunt galore!

I could see it now, a child mistakenly state ,"my dad smokes at home" or specially trained cigarette smoke-sniffing dogs, AND sniffing neighbors make some accusations ...and the inquisitors swoop down in full force.

:lol:

So okay you've had your say about Christians. What I'm interested to hear is what you have got to say about them Muslim suicide bombers! Anything derogatory at all? None whatsoever?

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Don't get me wrong...I am not denying that Christians have their share of religious extremists...."wing-nuts".

But what I'm doing is making you guys see how FAIR and LOGICAL your reactions are when you are faced with two types of religious order with two different....and practically OPPOSING doctrines!

If you are speaking openly as liberal-thinkers...then I guess there's no longer any arguments there. That's your liberal views.

But do not pretend to make your views seem objective...or try to pass your evaluations and judgments to be without severe bias and prejudice! .

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What sin is to me, "irresponsible acts or intolerance-of-all-kinds" is to you.

What heaven is to me, "quality of life" is to you.

What save the soul is to me, save the world is to you.

What salvation is to me, welfare and social assistance is to you.

What spreading the word is to me, legislation is to you.

What Jesus is to me, the almighty dollar is to you....or whatever it is you favor at the moment.

If you really look HONESTLY into what some of you guys are saying....and to what some of you are advocating and trying to impose on society (the different bannings you try to come up with in our everyday lives)....and to what extent some actions you may take, from your tree-huggers, to your veggie munchers, to your GreenPeace, to your incense, your human-shield volunteers (who probably inspired the human-shield factor now being done in the Middle East), and the list goes on....

...you are also neck-deep in fanaticism! You are fanatics!

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If you really look HONESTLY into what some of you guys are saying....and to what some of you are advocating and trying to impose on society (the different bannings you try to come up with in our everyday lives)....and to what extent some actions you may take, from your tree-huggers, to your veggie munchers, to your GreenPeace, to your incense, your human-shield volunteers (who probably inspired the human-shield factor now being done in the Middle East), and the list goes on....

...you are also neck-deep in fanaticism! You are fanatics!

And by the looks of it...there are more "wing-nuts" among you than Christians and Muslims combined! :lol:

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...But, I've yet to hear some of you who had openly ridiculed and openly criticized this girl with contempt, do the same thing to those religious fanatics who strap bombs on themselves and blow up innocent people.

Can you please explain why your reactions towards this girl is different from those fanatics who deliberately kill?

Betsy, I am actually embarrassed for you that you have asked this. I thought it was a given that none of us likes a suicide bomber, that none of us condones murder. But if it takes an affirmative statement for you to believe that it is true, here you go: suicide bombing is evil and the people who support it and who commit it will burn in Hell.

Happy now?

Can we go back to engaging in a discussion of the potential enemies within our faith or does every discussion about abuses in our society need to be counterposed with the evils of others (e.g., Islam)? Didn't Jesus say something about removing the plank from your own eye first? Must we always divert attention by pointing to the dust mote in another's eye?

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I've had strangers knocking on my door, handing me leaflets (Jehovah's Witness). It could be annoying and an inconvenience for some to be bothered answering the door...however, for some of the comments I've read from that link ("I would slap her face, etc...)...I think those reactions or statements are way too extreme when a polite "no, thanks." would've sufficed.

Again, I can't help but compare the reactions of those who would bash and criticise the girl (and her "trainers") for just giving what you might say is a "sales pitch", which is quite harmless really (even if you think it is fanatism)...

...But, I've yet to hear some of you who had openly ridiculed and openly criticized this girl with contempt, do the same thing to those religious fanatics who strap bombs on themselves and blow up innocent people.

Can you please explain why your reactions towards this girl is different from those fanatics who deliberately kill?

i'm more then willing to ridicule, but if you insult the actor you insult his act, the next day he'll do better, so ridicule the maker of his drug (emotional stimulus caused from religion) because they are the motive to this act, this play, damage it with truth and he might look at it with less hungry eye's, so what are you talking about? men with bombs on chest? or girl sending holy balls at pins? :lol:

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and i beleive we should be tought all faiths and theorys and choose for ourselves at a more mature time in our lives, not have it 'programmed' or bred into us, i think it is like brainwashing, but on a lesser extent, the qeustion is then, is brain washing right?

I know a man who tried to study different religions because he is "looking for the truth." He was a confused Christian...that his faith was on rocky grounds is probably an understatement. he read different books on different religions, and different theories by atheists. The last I heard of him, he was seeing a psychologist.

I, myself, do not fully understand my own religion. I guess you could say it had been "programmed" or "bred" into me. I have no problem with it...I'm happy with it.

But then again, I know a lot of kids who go to McDonald's...because their parents take them to McDonald's....because their grandparents had taken their parents to McDonald's. So a lifestyle is bred into them. Their taste for a kind of life had been "programmed"...it's like brainwashing, but on a lesser extent.

Was that right?

indeed! it is brain-washing! make one believe it to be true, and so they shall believe it to be true, to them, it shall be true! i love pizza, my friend hates it, the difference is that he had pizza once in his life, but for me it was familiar! from this blindness is the advertisement of reality, "this is so!" is all i hear from these 'sales men' and i doubt them, i have seen their faith and worshiped it, i too read books and found lie's, but in them was a truth! i am like your friend, i wish to find truth as well! have i found anyone’s god? no, but i found 'a' god. i'm righting a book as we speak on the matter, very close to this is a god that you and your kin make, a moral beast thats old and should die! but it's culture, a beautiful thing and i would not see it die, but children who like this for the feeling, will be out of touch of what reality is. who am i to judge what reality looks like? look around. if around you there is no lie, then that god in the good book does not exist, maybe he made man write this book, maybe he is a trick of our mind. but 'WE' do not know, science is a test of reality, but we have not gotten to this test yet. would you still agree to let people be happy to death? would you let kids believe something because it felt good? (also can you eat a faith? diffrent taste.)

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Don't forget who was burning witches a few centuries ago, kind of the time space where the cave dwelling muslims are now.

That's kind of a stretch, don't you think so?

I wouldn't compare burning witches at the stake to telling Muslims to stop supporting hatred and advocating death to non-believers....and to make their radicals to stop from making themselve martyrs by blowing up innocent people. For one, there's no muslim being imprisoned for attending mosque service....and second,this reaction is due to a norm called, self-preservation!

BUT I would compare Burning Witches a few centuries ago to the kind of agenda some lefties would want to impose: banning second-hand smoke from homes. This opens up the way to a full witch-hunt galore!

I could see it now, a child mistakenly state ,"my dad smokes at home" or specially trained cigarette smoke-sniffing dogs, AND sniffing neighbors make some accusations ...and the inquisitors swoop down in full force.

:lol:

So okay you've had your say about Christians. What I'm interested to hear is what you have got to say about them Muslim suicide bombers! Anything derogatory at all? None whatsoever?

good! as i said, men of faith are blind, but there's more to that, as faith means one thing to you, and another to me, faith to me means to believe something so much, that you disagree with anything that calls any part of it wrong. then also, acting out at by-passers as if they are your enemy. if they doubted their own faith, havoc! but it would end less painfully. but the reason they do this, is because they believe in the other-world or after-life, so they do as they are told from child-hood what they must to the enemies of this faith or god to gain their place in heaven, hope is courage, so fear of death is 'to' the moment, not 'in' the moment. in other words its the strongest before their death. they have a idea, like most faiths, that past this wall (or reality) is a higher plain of existence, a heaven in basic, or hell that holds the dead and gods with those under them (god, devil, angels, demons, uncle buck) so they have the wit, to do this act in order to die, to me death is literally death, to end to a new beginning that is more, but in this reality. so as once parts of you where meat and plant, then ghost comes from the human of which you are conceived. back into meat and plant.

they die for their god, their faith, and place in heaven.

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indeed! it is brain-washing! make one believe it to be true, and so they shall believe it to be true, to them, it shall be true! i love pizza, my friend hates it, the difference is that he had pizza once in his life, but for me it was familiar! from this blindness is the advertisement of reality,

You know what you call as the "advertisement of reality" is not reality at all...because YOUR OWN health guru are saying pizza clogs your heart!

So that statemnet is pure bologna.! :lol:

Typical liberal gibberish!

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but for me it was familiar!

And it's comforting, isn't it? Hence it's called "comfort food." :)

My religion offers me comfort! Your pizza gives me heartburn...but at least it gives you comfort...nothing wrong with that! You're big guy, you can make you own choice, right?

Gotta go!

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indeed! it is brain-washing! make one believe it to be true, and so they shall believe it to be true, to them, it shall be true! i love pizza, my friend hates it, the difference is that he had pizza once in his life, but for me it was familiar! from this blindness is the advertisement of reality,

You know what you call as the "advertisement of reality" is not reality at all...because YOUR OWN health guru are saying pizza clogs your heart!

So that statemnet is pure bologna.! :lol:

Typical liberal gibberish!

but i never said it clogs your heart... the "advertisement of reality" or "pizza" is a brew of words that fits the empty space, are you full?

if you read it right, then the "advertisement of reality" is indeed not true, but religion is the "advertisement of reality" would you beleive all your told? my point was to the pizza, i would stop eating it if i felt unhealthy, but i am not eating a lie, it does not hurt to eat, but it will? i guess then i will stop eating pizza, i like other foods as well anyways.

Typical liberal gibberish? am i liberal? hmmmm... please, i do not like the title, it seems insulting in the way you said it, would you take it back? it is a helper to find a lable, but i do not wish it to stick, i dont like blue cheese!!!

(liberals like blue cheese... long story.)

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Those dirty, filthy, drug using, dangerous, threatening Christians!

Yup - they are to be feared for their ways and to be hated for their thoughts.

On the other hand let's forgive those who would be willing to kill all Christians for their religion.

Let's allow those who would be appy to bring down western civilization in North America - all in the name of tolerance.

Gotta' love that word tolerance.

It applies to all but those dirty, filthy, drug using, dangerous, threatening Christians!

Borg

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Those dirty, filthy, drug using, dangerous, threatening Christians!

Yup - they are to be feared for their ways and to be hated for their thoughts.

On the other hand let's forgive those who would be willing to kill all Christians for their religion.

Let's allow those who would be appy to bring down western civilization in North America - all in the name of tolerance.

Gotta' love that word tolerance.

It applies to all but those dirty, filthy, drug using, dangerous, threatening Christians!

Borg

I DONT LIKE BLUE CHEESE!!!

and...

well i think thats it, but... do they use drugs and lay in dirt with knives and curses? i dont think so, did i miss something? also i think tolerance is not to be condesending (use that word too much... sorry) but to be diffrent and learning eachothers differences in a passionate chaotic, yet free manner of which the rules ar self contained, not war of worlds, but war of words. i'm atheist soooooo............BOO!

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...But, I've yet to hear some of you who had openly ridiculed and openly criticized this girl with contempt, do the same thing to those religious fanatics who strap bombs on themselves and blow up innocent people.

Can you please explain why your reactions towards this girl is different from those fanatics who deliberately kill?

So okay you've had your say about Christians. What I'm interested to hear is what you have got to say about them Muslim suicide bombers! Anything derogatory at all? None whatsoever?

Good grief.

Are you so hypersensitive that you can't bear to see wing-nut Christians being talked about without pointing out something Muslims do that's worse?

Doesn't it kind of go without saying that people disapprove of suicide bombs?

And for the record, if you look at my posts going back months or years on this forum, you'll find that I really really really dislike fundamentalist Muslims and have never been shy about saying so.

But what I'm doing is making you guys see how FAIR and LOGICAL your reactions are when you are faced with two types of religious order with two different....and practically OPPOSING doctrines!

I dislike fanatics whether Christian, Muslim, Scientologist, or whatever.

As for whether these Christian fanatics are very different or opposing to the Muslim fanatics, did you watch the Jesus Camp movie preview?

-kids chanting and screaming and pumping their fists in the air with tears running down their faces?

-convulsions?

-"there's only two kinds of people in this world. People who love Jeeezus, and people who don't."

-"how many of you would give up your lives for Jeeezus?"

-"we're being trained to be God's army!"

-"This means war! This means war! Are you a part of it or not?"

-they've even got their own flag that they swear allegiance to.

They're not very different at all. The same "if you're not with us, you're against us" crap. These particular fanatics don't make women dress up in tents, and these fanatics will fight their holy war using ballots instead of bombs, but those are just details. Underneath the trappings, it's the same dogmatic devotion.

-k

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I've said it before...

I used "only" because every time someone trots out a facile comparison between fundamentalist conservative Christianity and its Islamic counterpart, the response from outraged Xtians is invariably an invocation of suicide bombing and/or terrorism in general. From that, one can assume that the methods and degree of violence the respective groups favour is the key distinguishing feature between them, since it is the one that comes most readily to the lips of those who defend fundamentalist Christianity.

IOW, when I read that, it comes off as an admission that yeah, fundamentalist Christians would be happy with a society where young women are stoned to death for having sex, where gays are hung from cranes, and where absolute obediance to religious law as set down on some ancient scrap of papyrus is demanded. It's just that they are not about to blow themselves up to acheive their goals (apparently prefering to "advance (their) cause by peaceful, legal means.")

Now, I'm glad Christianity has mostly given up its old habits of putting non-belivers to the sword and is mostly working peacefully to acheive its ends. It's just that I find the ends some of its radical members are working towards and the ideas they esposue to be utterly repugnant.

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Betsy, I am actually embarrassed for you that you have asked this. I thought it was a given that none of us likes a suicide bomber, that none of us condones murder. But if it takes an affirmative statement for you to believe that it is true, here you go: suicide bombing is evil and the people who support it and who commit it will burn in Hell.

I feel embarrassed!

When you put it that way....it seems I'm standing here with a pair of pliers and a hot poker...and that I wrung that "confession" from you out of extreme duress! :lol:

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Can we go back to engaging in a discussion of the potential enemies within our faith or does every discussion about abuses in our society need to be counterposed with the evils of others (e.g., Islam)? Didn't Jesus say something about removing the plank from your own eye first? Must we always divert attention by pointing to the dust mote in another's eye?

Dammit Liam. Don't you know that unless you are on record as opposing something, no matter how grotesque and self-evidently immoral it is, it is to be taken as a given that you endorse it? Now, let's talk about betsy's support of bashing kittens with a shovel....

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indeed! it is brain-washing! make one believe it to be true, and so they shall believe it to be true, to them, it shall be true! i love pizza, my friend hates it, the difference is that he had pizza once in his life, but for me it was familiar! from this blindness is the advertisement of reality, "this is so!" is all i hear from these 'sales men' and i doubt them, i have seen their faith and worshiped it, i too read books and found lie's, but in them was a truth! i am like your friend, i wish to find truth as well!

Is it blindness indeed?

In the case of your pizza, there is already proof that gives you the truth. Medical studies and findings had already given the evidences. But the advertisement still lures you to that pizza....offering the familiar comfort. You still believe it ...and even refer to it as a "reality", even though you know it only offers an illusion of that reality.

Oh man, reading that makes me think of the comparison to the devil and temptation.

Well I don't know how to explain it...so I'll tell you about my mother. My mother had a near-death experience. She saw the light and she felt so wonderful that she did not want to go back....she just wanted to go to the light. But she got yanked back to life.

She had been religious throughout her life....but after that experience, she became even more so....that at her old age, she became an active participant and was part of an effort that saw the restoration of our church. She may have halllucinated the whole thing....or she may have indeed seen something beyond. But whatever it was, it gave her a surge of strength...and had her faith soaring even more. To the end.

We all want to see an evidence, a proof. But just because there is no evidence proving it is true....it does not mean it is not true.

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...But, I've yet to hear some of you who had openly ridiculed and openly criticized this girl with contempt, do the same thing to those religious fanatics who strap bombs on themselves and blow up innocent people.

Can you please explain why your reactions towards this girl is different from those fanatics who deliberately kill?

So okay you've had your say about Christians. What I'm interested to hear is what you have got to say about them Muslim suicide bombers! Anything derogatory at all? None whatsoever?

Good grief.

Are you so hypersensitive that you can't bear to see wing-nut Christians being talked about without pointing out something Muslims do that's worse?

Doesn't it kind of go without saying that people disapprove of suicide bombs?

And for the record, if you look at my posts going back months or years on this forum, you'll find that I really really really dislike fundamentalist Muslims and have never been shy about saying so.

Well I don't know if you've read most of the threads here, but from what I've read from a lot of those that do bash Christians, they do not distinguish "fanatics" or "fundamentalists" when they do. And yet, most of these same posters go out of their way to point out that only "extremists" or "fundamentalists" create havoc among the Muslims.

Of course Islam is going to be mentioned. Comparison is inevitable!

Hey, if Christianity can be brought out and used to rebutt in the Smoking Ban thread...and my views on Smoking Ban can be used to advance the burqua argument....of course, anything is a tool! :lol:

I was sensitive to the extreme comments made about the girl with the bowling ball. Those said comments, some of which fantacised of doing her violence, were on that link. One can't help but think that there is a strong anti-Christianism going on.

No I did not bother to see the other video. Your descriptions were enough...for I know that there are religious zealots...and extremists....among those who call themselves Christians too.

No I have not read your posts from the past. I've read some that you've made every now and then...

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indeed! it is brain-washing! make one believe it to be true, and so they shall believe it to be true, to them, it shall be true! i love pizza, my friend hates it, the difference is that he had pizza once in his life, but for me it was familiar! from this blindness is the advertisement of reality, "this is so!" is all i hear from these 'sales men' and i doubt them, i have seen their faith and worshiped it, i too read books and found lie's, but in them was a truth! i am like your friend, i wish to find truth as well!

Is it blindness indeed?

In the case of your pizza, there is already proof that gives you the truth. Medical studies and findings had already given the evidences. But the advertisement still lures you to that pizza....offering the familiar comfort. You still believe it ...and even refer to it as a "reality", even though you know it only offers an illusion of that reality.

Oh man, reading that makes me think of the comparison to the devil and temptation.

Well I don't know how to explain it...so I'll tell you about my mother. My mother had a near-death experience. She saw the light and she felt so wonderful that she did not want to go back....she just wanted to go to the light. But she got yanked back to life.

She had been religious throughout her life....but after that experience, she became even more so....that at her old age, she became an active participant and was part of an effort that saw the restoration of our church. She may have halllucinated the whole thing....or she may have indeed seen something beyond. But whatever it was, it gave her a surge of strength...and had her faith soaring even more. To the end.

We all want to see an evidence, a proof. But just because there is no evidence proving it is true....it does not mean it is not true.

you all have convinced me...but don't get me wrong, i speak broadly, all faiths are like this to a point, in the sense that they are condescending. but can they help it? i myself am condescending in my belief, but what have they done to test their bounds? are they making their reality with clay?! that is an insult to what is in front of them, but they want and hope to see past it, all they've done is dream... all i say is, "WAKE UP!" but me myself am dreaming, so i am judging, i am happy for their truths, but it is only 'their' truths and it worries me... is that a judgment? is that prejudice?

i think it is, so i agree. i should not tell them what is so, it damages their pride, because i have pride as well! but a selfish pride that hopes others will have pride as well, in me. as they also have this pride. i think i will find this on my own, but i need not artifice to see it. so thank you for your outburst! it was a good fight! i enjoyed it! but this is not a battle to the death, it's with words out-spoken and teaching, i need to see the truth in the lie, are we not clashing heads uselessly?

'betsy', its passion not rage, i would not say this to anyone, i say it to thinkers that i've grown to respect, what is to me my favor, is mankind, i would see you all be free from these jails of moral malcontent, are you really ok with happiness without truth? also it has no proof, test your bounds and find truth in that, not in throwing geusses at half cracked doors. no one person is right in their beleif, what i'm saying is there is a world that is here, and the boundry of here lays on the beholder? life is not art, not art that we made, but we still define it? we make the painting over our world, as i said, the "advertisement of reality" is what the preistests and wisemen spread, it is the fake reality that others choose to beleive, would you beleive a lie if it made you happy? i never read this in books, that pizza is bad for you, but as i said i like other foods anyway, i do not have to eat pizza, the realiy is the pizza, in my words this means we all eat it, dispite the warning, but i would not as often, reliogon is not the pizza, it is the illusion that pizza is in fact 'good for you' (advetisment) an instance is the first, fear spelling words out of a JW, "we are here to save your soul!" i am not afraid of this, but others are and joined because of this and their lack of escape to another hope, that is what i hope to offer, but then my offer is a fake reality? mine i can prove...

but this is no way to speak, i will find other means, mabye then i can convince you something of what i say is true?

'liam'

i agree, back on topic, and stay on topic, but there is a commonality in both the girl and the bomber, i don't know what it is, but i see it as a degrading tolerance or overwhelmingly condescended ego.

i'm covenced that my words were radical, and over-spoken, not out-spoken, we need a more tolerant system of argument, my problem is that i forgot you all were not godless...

i thank you.

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you all have convinced me...but don't get me wrong, i speak broadly, all faiths are like this to a point, in the sense that they are condescending. but can they help it? i myself am condescending in my belief, but what have they done to test their bounds? are they making their reality with clay?! that is an insult to what is in front of them, but they want and hope to see past it, all they've done is dream... all i say is, "WAKE UP!" but me myself am dreaming, so i am judging, i am happy for their truths, but it is only 'their' truths and it worries me... is that a judgment? is that prejudice?

i think it is, so i agree. i should not tell them what is so, it damages their pride, because i have pride as well! but a selfish pride that hopes others will have pride as well, in me. as they also have this pride. i think i will find this on my own, but i need not artifice to see it. so thank you for your outburst! it was a good fight! i enjoyed it! but this is not a battle to the death, it's with words out-spoken and teaching, i need to see the truth in the lie, are we not clashing heads uselessly?

i'm covenced that my words were radical, and over-spoken, not out-spoken, we need a more tolerant system of argument, my problem is that i forgot you all were not godless...

i thank you.

I think we all tend to condescend at some point (for various reasons),....sometimes, unwittingly or without meaning to....for condescension is rooted in what we believe, (and it may be about anything)....thinking we are right. Condescension is not exclusive to religion.

And yes...debate about religion or faith....leads to nowhere. It is one of those that just goes on and on and on... :)

I just want to let you know that I am not angry with you...or anyone here in this forum. We do get heated up sometimes....but nothing personal.

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I think we all tend to condescend at some point (for various reasons),....sometimes, unwittingly or without meaning to....for condescension is rooted in what we believe, (and it may be about anything)....thinking we are right. Condescension is not exclusive to religion.

And yes...debate about religion or faith....leads to nowhere. It is one of those that just goes on and on and on... :)

I just want to let you know that I am not angry with you...or anyone here in this forum. We do get heated up sometimes....but nothing personal.

i know it is not personal, but do we really need a faith? cant we survive on life alone? i can walk to the other side of earth and still have not found a use of faith as strong as my hope in man! i just don't like seeing extreme men shoot the heathens of their mind-hood... does that seem like begging? but i don't want to shed my dilemma, i am still flexible and would like to see an 'alternative' to Jesus camp, and an 'alternative' to radicalist faith. is there one? because i have no answer in this matter.

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