Canadian Blue Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Depends on what defines faith. I am a Christian, however I don't rarely go to church because I think that many of the mainstream denomination's are hypocritical and judgemental. I prefer to follow the idea of the Sermon of the Mount, rather then this idea that christianity is more about strict rules which must be obeyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 i know it is not personal, but do we really need a faith? cant we survive on life alone? i can walk to the other side of earth and still have not found a use of faith as strong as my hope in man! i just don't like seeing extreme men shoot the heathens of their mind-hood... does that seem like begging? but i don't want to shed my dilemma, i am still flexible and would like to see an 'alternative' to Jesus camp, and an 'alternative' to radicalist faith. is there one? because i have no answer in this matter. I can only answer for myself alone. I need my faith. My husband and I had been through terrible times together...and I would say, only our faith in God had strengthen us and seen us through those tough times. I feel comforted by my faith. I feel lucky to have my faith. Some may call it a "crutch"....but it works for me. I find it easy dealing with the curves and downside of life....my faith is my personal therapist. Available anytime of the day...or night! It makes housecalls. And it's free. But what about you? You still sound like you are still un-decided...or unsure....or confused. Your posts seem to reflect that your comments are more directed to yourself, in an indirect way....that you are still trying to convince yourself that you do not need faith. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I had criticized the reactions on Rachel in my post #21, but so far no one had bothered to say anything about them. These are some of the comments and reactions towards the little girl: "Jesus wants to love on you. How fun. I have trained my kids to punch kids in the mouth if they attemp to hand them any religious literature or preach them in any form. If it is an adult, then my kids will kick them in the shins." "if this little girl approached me while I was bowling, I would slap the snot out of her. LOL! Not really, I would have accepted her literature and then wiped my poopy butt with it in the bowling alley bathroom." "If i had been waiting for my turn to bowl and some religious lil' freak kid came up to me saying that shit i'd tell her to [censored] off!. Actually i'd just say thanks and take the leaflet..." "I'm gonna teach my kids to only punch kids who hand out Jesus tracts and say things like, "God wants to love on you" "I would have looked her in the eye so that she was really looking at me and said, "There is not God. There is no Santa Clause. There is no Heaven. Here's $10 to use in the arcade. Go kill something." "If she walked up to me, I would grab the leaflets and make her choke on it." "fuck that shit i burned a bible some guy gave me at school and i also threw one at him too and declared "i love satan!!" http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all...v%3D8PXrBQlN9Rw ******************************** And all Rachel did was approach a stranger and said: "Hi. um, God's just telling me that you're on his mind, and he just wants to take you and love on you and he has special plans for you and your life. He just wants you to follow him with your whole heart." ********************************* The whole message of Rachel took what...30 seconds? a minute? I assume that you have been approached by a stranger at least once...asking you to fill up an application for Visa or Mastercard... ...Or your kid had gone knocking on strangers' doors asking if they could sponsor him to enter a hockey league....or buy these chocolates for the school... Have you ever turned around and joked to your friend...or to a family member: "I'd love to grab his hockey stick and use his head for a puck?" or... "I shoulda just shove all those chocolates down his throat! The creep! Slaving away for peanuts...being brainwashed by the school and their parents to do hard labor for what? To get a freakin' limo ride! ************************************* Don't you find those reactions disturbing at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnam Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I can only answer for myself alone. I need my faith. My husband and I had been through terrible times together...and I would say, only our faith in God had strengthen us and seen us through those tough times. I feel comforted by my faith. I feel lucky to have my faith. Some may call it a "crutch"....but it works for me. I find it easy dealing with the curves and downside of life....my faith is my personal therapist. Available anytime of the day...or night! It makes housecalls. And it's free. But what about you? You still sound like you are still un-decided...or unsure....or confused. Your posts seem to reflect that your comments are more directed to yourself, in an indirect way....that you are still trying to convince yourself that you do not need faith. If you can only answer for yourself, is that sufficient to determine for you or others whether anyone else should share in the tenets and/or morality of your faith? The fact that you feel lucky, comforted, etc, does nothing to confirm, for anyone but you, that other people should adopt the tenets of your faith. I might feel lucky and comforted by the taste of chocolate (incidentally I hate chocolate, a bit of info that ought to have little or no meaning for you or anyone who does not have a say regarding the contents of my grocery list). I might even use chocolate as a 'crutch' with which to get through the hard times in my life. I might enjoy chocolate and give thanks to the inventor of chocolate for helping me get through the downside of life. I might even take the writings of other chocolate lovers to be theraputic for me... if I take the time to grow and process cocoa I might even have access to plentiful and free chocolate. Why would it matter at all if someone else were unsure about, undecided about, or confused about the effect that chocolate has in their life? What is the point of suggesting that a person remains undecided about a thing? Is there a right answer concerning those things that concern nothing more than personal opinion or beliefe? Clearly (or perhaps I am mistaken) you have an opinion about what decision the above person 'ought' to come to. Why not just come out with with your opinion... the one that obviously follows from your personal testimony? From the context of your preceding comments we can all be clear that you are only speaking on the grounds of personal experience and opinion, and as such don't really believe that anyone else need actually believe what you believe. If this is the case, why bother? Do you desire that everyone just get to know you? Perhaps, on the other hand, you think your faith has something to do with some universal truth... if so, then you might offer some reasons or instructions by which the rest of us might gain access or insight to these gems of human wisdom??? Then again, perhaps you are just expressing your opinion.... hmmm...???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 If you can only answer for yourself, is that sufficient to determine for you or others whether anyone else should share in the tenets and/or morality of your faith? The fact that you feel lucky, comforted, etc, does nothing to confirm, for anyone but you, that other people should adopt the tenets of your faith. I can only answer for myself...because I can say ACCURATELY how I feel. It would not be speculation...or hearsay. As for sharing the tenets and morality of our faith......you are being invited, and given the news. You are not being dragged to the church and baptized against your will. You can always decline the invitation if you wish to have no part in it at all. Think of it in terms of an advertisement. You want to buy or not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I might feel lucky and comforted by the taste of chocolate (incidentally I hate chocolate, a bit of info that ought to have little or no meaning for you or anyone who does not have a say regarding the contents of my grocery list). I might even use chocolate as a 'crutch' with which to get through the hard times in my life. I might enjoy chocolate and give thanks to the inventor of chocolate for helping me get through the downside of life. I might even take the writings of other chocolate lovers to be theraputic for me... if I take the time to grow and process cocoa I might even have access to plentiful and free chocolate. Would you have known of chocolates...that chocolates do exists... if no one had ever told you about it? How would you know it got discovered at all...if the discoverer or anyone did not announce that he discovered it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Why would it matter at all if someone else were unsure about, undecided about, or confused about the effect that chocolate has in their life? What is the point of suggesting that a person remains undecided about a thing? Is there a right answer concerning those things that concern nothing more than personal opinion or beliefe? Clearly (or perhaps I am mistaken) you have an opinion about what decision the above person 'ought' to come to. Why not just come out with with your opinion... the one that obviously follows from your personal testimony? I was responding to his posts. We were having a discussion. I think my observation is quite reasonable considering he himself had said he studied and read different theologies...that he was searching for the truth! Someone would not spend that amount of time and go through all the trouble reading various materials and trying to learn something about them, if they don't have very serious questions about faith...and that they don't take it too lightly! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 From the context of your preceding comments we can all be clear that you are only speaking on the grounds of personal experience and opinion, and as such don't really believe that anyone else need actually believe what you believe. If this is the case, why bother? Do you desire that everyone just get to know you? Have you heard of that guy who lost 8 children and his wife in a fire about 3 years ago? It was well-publicised. He is a Christian. And he said it was his faith that got him through. Think of my "testimony"...and his "testimony"...as a referral....to something you ought to try. Think of it like someone recommending tylenol for a headache...since they find it's the best brand! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Perhaps, on the other hand, you think your faith has something to do with some universal truth... if so, then you might offer some reasons or instructions by which the rest of us might gain access or insight to these gems of human wisdom???Then again, perhaps you are just expressing your opinion.... hmmm...???? Hmmm...thinking of tips and hints to give you.... I'd say you'll never know for yourself until you try it. I can't really describe to you the taste of chocolate...but I'm telling you, it's good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnam Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 If you can only answer for yourself, is that sufficient to determine for you or others whether anyone else should share in the tenets and/or morality of your faith? The fact that you feel lucky, comforted, etc, does nothing to confirm, for anyone but you, that other people should adopt the tenets of your faith. I can only answer for myself...because I can say ACCURATELY how I feel. It would not be speculation...or hearsay. As for sharing the tenets and morality of our faith......you are being invited, and given the news. You are not being dragged to the church and baptized against your will. You can always decline the invitation if you wish to have no part in it at all. Think of it in terms of an advertisement. You want to buy or not? Ok great, I can only talk accurately about my disposition regarding chocolate; but only if I am talking about 'my' disposition would avoid I the charge of hearsay or speculation insofar as it is I who expresses any inclinations one way or the other in the matter. SFW? You are cordially invited to share in the moral premisses and conclusions of those of us who enjoy chocolate. Feel free to buy in, or not. But if you aren't buying, why should the morality associated with this thing that you are free to buy (or not) be proposed as a matter for public implemetation? Likewise, why should the morality associated with your religion, a religion you imply is merely a matter of taste, be proposed as a model for public behaviour? In other words, if you think your religion has something to do with truth (capital T) then say so. If you are simply talking about 'small t' truth (i.e. "I like callico cats") then why should anyone else care about that?? If your religion is simply one more commodity, and only conveys truth for you, then what possible political (public) significance could it have? If it's all about advertising and everyone is free to buy or not (believe or not), then I guess it doesn't matter (beyond preference) what your religion has to say about homosexuality, drugs, buddhism, Nietzsche, liberalism, etc??? Is this what you mean? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I can only talk accurately about my disposition regarding chocolate; but only if I am talking about 'my' disposition would avoid I the charge of hearsay or speculation insofar as it is I who expresses any inclinations one way or the other in the matter. SFW? I don't exactly understand what you're saying here. Please explain. And what does SWF means? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 You are cordially invited to share in the moral premisses and conclusions of those of us who enjoy chocolate. Feel free to buy in, or not. But if you aren't buying, why should the morality associated with this thing that you are free to buy (or not) be proposed as a matter for public implemetation? Likewise, why should the morality associated with your religion, a religion you imply is merely a matter of taste, be proposed as a model for public behaviour? Same as why would the morality of those un-associated with religion be proposed as a matter for public implementation or as a model for public behaviour? Why should schools dabble in morality at all? Anyway, who were the pioneers who built the foundation of this country? What religion did they have? What religion did they bring with them? Therefore what type of belief is incorporated into the system? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 If it's all about advertising and everyone is free to buy or not (believe or not), then I guess it doesn't matter (beyond preference) what your religion has to say about homosexuality, drugs, buddhism, Nietzsche, liberalism, etc??? Is this what you mean? An ad can offer you an all-you-can-eat buffet, or your child eats free....or you can go for fine dining...or a great deal for the whole family! If you're watching your diet, buffet may be a very bad idea. On the other hand, if you've got 10 children, option b might be the best way to go. But of course, you get what you pay for. What comes with the package? Can you pick and choose? Depends if you can have it custom-made. That's why others open up their own kitchen...so they can choose all the ingredients! They can eliminate hot peppers from the list if they don't agree with it. At the end of the day....it's your choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 It's not strapping bombs to chests -- yet -- but this article shows that religious intolerance can take root even in Christianity and that we must, therefore, be mindful of the enemies within: http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp...date=11/21/2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 It's not strapping bombs to chests -- yet -- but this article shows that religious intolerance can take root even in Christianity and that we must, therefore, be mindful of the enemies within:http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp...date=11/21/2006 I'd be more worried of our children SOLICITING for various organizations (schools, sports, etc..,)...knocking on STRANGERS" DOORS...now that we know what kind of vicious mentality some "peace-loving" lefties fantacize about! All it takes is being at the wrong time and one leftie wing nut answering that door! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liam Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Typical right wingnut reaction -- when they can't address facts presented before them they revert to throwing mud at liberals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Typical right wingnut reaction -- when they can't address facts presented before them they revert to throwing mud at liberals. I have already said several times that our religion have wignnuts too! And no one had to goad me...into saying it! I had printed vicious comments...which I find disturbing. You have not even commented on it. And here you post a link...which I had already addressed before: we've got wingnuts. What is there left to say? So I tried to draw your attention back to my previous post: the fanatics on your own side of the fence. And what reply do I get? Deflection. So I throw back the ball to you and say... Like typical left wingnut reaction -- when they can't address facts presented before them---in this case, FANATICISM exists on non-religious sides -- they try to bury the issue. Deflect. Throw mud. And use the bigot race card? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 It's not strapping bombs to chests -- yet -- but this article shows that religious intolerance can take root even in Christianity and that we must, therefore, be mindful of the enemies within:http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp...date=11/21/2006 Okay Liam...I'll comment on your link. We've got wing nuts on our side too. There, I've said it again, just for you. Happy now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kimmy Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 But I think you'd agree that fanaticism is not only found in religions. Of course. I had criticized the reactions on Rachel in my post #21, but so far no one had bothered to say anything about them. (...) Don't you find those reactions disturbing at all? I agree that expressing a desire to slap or punch a little girl is somehwat pathetic. I assume that they are exaggerating, to express their dislike of proselytizing. And all Rachel did was approach a stranger and said: "Hi. um, God's just telling me that you're on his mind, and he just wants to take you and love on you and he has special plans for you and your life. He just wants you to follow him with your whole heart." The whole message of Rachel took what...30 seconds? a minute? Here's a thought experiment for you to try. Imagine the same blonde girl at the same bowling alley, sitting and drinking her coffee in peace. She is approached by a cute little girl with a loving religious message: "Hi! Um, I just want to let you know that Allah loves you very much, and he hopes that you will join him in paradise some day. That's why I have to tell you that you need to cover your hair, and wear modest clothes, and not go out without a male relative to escort you. Please follow Allah's teaching so that you can go to paradise some day." Is it still cute? -k Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnam Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 I can only talk accurately about my disposition regarding chocolate; but only if I am talking about 'my' disposition would avoid I the charge of hearsay or speculation insofar as it is I who expresses any inclinations one way or the other in the matter. SFW? I don't exactly understand what you're saying here. Please explain. And what does SWF means? Sorry... that was entirely mixed up. All I meant to do hear is re-articulate and emphasize your intial point that when I talk about my tastes and/or religious preferences that I am really saying that I can't speak for anyone else... that my religious beliefs, or my preference (or lack thereof) for chocolate is merely that, a preference... and therefore has no public force as a moral system. I then followed this rather trite observation with the acronym SFW? which means "So What?" Morality and ethics are about the things that ought to be the case or that we ought to do... buffet's and chocolate are about what we like. By your own admissions in stating that religion is about preference, religion has nothing to do with political morality. Have I misinterpreted you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkAngel_ Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 deleted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnam Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 You are cordially invited to share in the moral premisses and conclusions of those of us who enjoy chocolate. Feel free to buy in, or not. But if you aren't buying, why should the morality associated with this thing that you are free to buy (or not) be proposed as a matter for public implemetation? Likewise, why should the morality associated with your religion, a religion you imply is merely a matter of taste, be proposed as a model for public behaviour? Same as why would the morality of those un-associated with religion be proposed as a matter for public implementation or as a model for public behaviour? Why should schools dabble in morality at all? Anyway, who were the pioneers who built the foundation of this country? What religion did they have? What religion did they bring with them? Therefore what type of belief is incorporated into the system? Well, actually, in talking about ethics and morality in the public sphere it has traditionally been agreed among the learned men of a number of religions (for example, see maimonedes the medieval jewish thinker, St. Thomas Aquinas the medeival christian thinker, and muslims help me out here since my memory has failed me... I think the medieval muslim thinker was called Al Fassad) who debated with one another and agreed that the language of "reason" and not "faith" is the proper way to communicate ethical and moral theorems across religious boundaries. In other words, it has been agreed upon during times far more civil than ours that religious faith was not an appropriate basis upon which to publicly discuss morality. It looks as though you have said as much in your previous posts when you likened religion to a mere matter of taste which we are free to enjoy or not. In contrast, reason aims for (though often falls short... however, it is the best we have) truth, justice, and beauty. None of these are thought to be a matter of preference. Earlier, I suggetsed that if you thought there was some important truth in your religious convictions then you ought to be willing to share it by reasoning with us about how to come to see that truth. However, you have yet to give us any reason to buy your religious doctrine, and by extension the moralities grounded in it that go beyond an appeal to preference. If you cannot compell us to share in your faith then on what grounds would we be compelled to accept, as valid, any of your moralising(s)? As for the pioneers who built the "foundation" of this country and their religions, I guess you would have to be a little more specific about what you take to be the 'foundations' you refer to. I assume you are not talking about the firts-nations people of Cananda who often subscribed to some variation of animist and mystical religious belief before white intervention, though there are many reasons why they should be thought of as foundational peoples. Maybe you are talking about the French catholicism that came to North america with the fur trade (is this the foundation you mean?), or perhaps the English protestantism that came with England's imperialist aspirations and was integral in setting up confederation. Perhaps by 'foundations' you mean those eastern Europeans (ie. Ukrainians, et al) who came and setteled much of the agricultural land of the prairies and brought with them their brand of Christian orthodoxy. Or maybe by 'foundation' you meant the railroad and were refering to the large chinese population that came here and brought their buddhist, confucian, daoist, etc, beliefs with them. Or perhaps when you say 'foundation' you mean those contemporary labourors (often though not always immigrants) who work at many of the least desirable jobs in canada and yet contribute in the most foundational ways to the continued operation of society. These people bring a number of religions with them ranging from hinduism, to muslim, to other varied forms of christianity. At any rate you might want to start a new thread if you are going to make any serious attempt to answer this question... or maybe we should move over to the Canada's history thread that I think is already running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnam Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 If it's all about advertising and everyone is free to buy or not (believe or not), then I guess it doesn't matter (beyond preference) what your religion has to say about homosexuality, drugs, buddhism, Nietzsche, liberalism, etc??? Is this what you mean? An ad can offer you an all-you-can-eat buffet, or your child eats free....or you can go for fine dining...or a great deal for the whole family! If you're watching your diet, buffet may be a very bad idea. On the other hand, if you've got 10 children, option b might be the best way to go. But of course, you get what you pay for. What comes with the package? Can you pick and choose? Depends if you can have it custom-made. That's why others open up their own kitchen...so they can choose all the ingredients! They can eliminate hot peppers from the list if they don't agree with it. At the end of the day....it's your choice. So again, we are back to this personal taste and choice business. This seems to suggest, by your own admission, that religious belief and all of the moral dictates that go with it have something to do with choice... or as dark Angel might have it, with 'will'. Is this what you mean to say? Can I really just decide that I don't like the flavor of the judeo-christian religion... goodbye repression? hello adultry, killing and ox-coveting? Yahoo I thought the day would never come! man you should see my neighbor's ox!!... boy do I ever wish i had that ox! and his wife! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LonJowett Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 We've got wing nuts on our side too. That's for sure. Some of them probably look a lot like you, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnam Posted November 23, 2006 Report Share Posted November 23, 2006 Here's a thought experiment for you to try. Imagine the same blonde girl at the same bowling alley, sitting and drinking her coffee in peace. She is approached by a cute little girl with a loving religious message:"Hi! Um, I just want to let you know that Allah loves you very much, and he hopes that you will join him in paradise some day. That's why I have to tell you that you need to cover your hair, and wear modest clothes, and not go out without a male relative to escort you. Please follow Allah's teaching so that you can go to paradise some day." Is it still cute? -k Awwwhhhh... that's the cutest thing I ever heard... are they selling those dolls for christmas this year??? where can i adopt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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