Is it time to throw out multiculturalism

[August1991]

There seems to be some question as to what actually constitutes multiculturalism, some question of line-drawing. Does welcoming folks with funny names or other skin-tones make us multicultural? Does welcoming folks with funny hats and tasty food make us multicultural? Or are those things superficialities? Do we only become truly multicultural if we allow people to practice their traditions and beliefs, in whole, in the way they're practiced "back home"?

Here's a good quote, said over 150 years ago, by Charles James Napier that illustrates well the dilemma of multiculturalism:

A quote for which Napier is famous involves a delegation of Hindu locals approaching him and complaining about prohibition of Sati, often referred to at the time as suttee, by British authorities. This was the custom of burning widows alive on the funeral pyres of their husbands. The exact wording of his response varies somewhat in different reports, but the following version captures its essence:

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

IOW, we each have a right to follow the customs of our ancestors but certain principles of civilized, liberal society must take precedence. It is unfortunate that perhaps because of political correctness, these principles are now confused.

[Black Dog]

Well, for one thing, you're not supposed to be proud of Canada except insofar as we are multicultural. When you see some people here talk about how they are proud of Canada, what do they bring up? Multiculturalism, tolerance, health care. Geeeze. That's a huge heaping cry from what gives pride to Americans.

Who's keeping you from being proud of something else. What would that be, anyway?

No, it was London. There are any number of such stories from the UK. Their multicuralism is taken to an insane degree.

The only cite I found was to South Africa. If you have another, please provide it.

The point was the prison being spineless enough to take down their own nation's flag because some muslims might not like it.

Yeah, I suppose it's always a good idea to provoke criminals.

IOW, we each have a right to follow the customs of our ancestors but certain principles of civilized, liberal society must take precedence. It is unfortunate that perhaps because of political correctness, these principles are now confused.

Are they? Do we tolerate wife burning? i find it strange is that so many of multicultralisms foes blame it for so many problems without demonstrating how a nebulous government policy can have such dramatic social effects. If multicultralism is really to blame for as much as its detractors say, it can probably be considered the most successful government project in history. Me, I don't see it.

[Argus]

Well, for one thing, you're not supposed to be proud of Canada except insofar as we are multicultural. When you see some people here talk about how they are proud of Canada, what do they bring up? Multiculturalism, tolerance, health care. Geeeze. That's a huge heaping cry from what gives pride to Americans.

Who's keeping you from being proud of something else. What would that be, anyway?

How about Canada's military history. Except they don't teach that any more in schools. And it's not like we do anything much to recognize it. How many statues are there, how many memorials to our great battles and victories and generals?

The point was the prison being spineless enough to take down their own nation's flag because some muslims might not like it.

Yeah, I suppose it's always a good idea to provoke criminals.

So give up, give in, suck up to anyone with violent inclinations? Is that the way to get your respect, attention, and cooperation. If the anti-gay people start burning down buildings and bombing subways will you immediately reverse your support of gay rights on the basis that it's too provocative to violent people?

IOW, we each have a right to follow the customs of our ancestors but certain principles of civilized, liberal society must take precedence. It is unfortunate that perhaps because of political correctness, these principles are now confused.

Are they? Do we tolerate wife burning? i find it strange is that so many of multicultralisms foes blame it for so many problems without demonstrating how a nebulous government policy can have such dramatic social effects. If multicultralism is really to blame for as much as its detractors say, it can probably be considered the most successful government project in history. Me, I don't see it.

It would be successful if they had actually intended it to turn out this way. They didn't. But every facet of our immigration and cultural policies over the last few decades have been influenced by multiculturalism. It was multiculturalism which changed this country from a largely homogenous Judeo-Christian nation, to one with millions upon millions of visible minorities, ethnic minorities, and religious minorities. That has led to considerable social strife and adjustment for the population, considerable cost in the form of welfare, social services and policing, increased size and crowding in our cities, etc. etc. etc.

Did they want this to happen? Was this the plan? If so, nobody ever asked the people of Canada when they started the program thirty five or forty odd years back. No one ever asked the people of Toronto if they wanted to be swamped with so many immigrants that more than half the population would be foreign born. Nobody ever asked the people in BC if they wanted to be minorities in many of their communities. Do you think parents in BC or Toronto ever wonder about why little Johnny's class is two thirds filled with immigrants from failed cultures, most of whom speak little English?

Cause you know what, I was around in the early seventies, and I don't remember Trudeau and his minions ever suggesting this was the way it was going to be, that this was what they were aiming for. When I went through school there were NO visible minorities in any of my classes, from kindergarten through the end of high school. Now you've got a wild hodgepodge of peoples from around the globe, some of them violent, many with poor language skills, others with bad attitudes towards women and girls and authorities. So when I see a class today I can't help thinking "Whatever happened to the Canadian kids?"

And if these are the new Canadian kids, someone better teach them how to speak English.

Mind you, we're so cooperative you don't need to speak English to get welfare. The forms are available in multiple languages. That's multiculturalism for you.

[scribblet]

"In the shadow of Sept. 11, it is time to confront the unsettling truth that radical multiculturalism creates tribes that could destroy the society that produced it."

I to am convinced that the Liberal concept of multiculturalism involving freedom, equality and tolerance has been distorted into their opposites.

For instance it is acceptable under our definition of free speech to attack Christianity, but say anything critical of Islam and you could risk being charged with hate speech.

By accepting this Liberal concept of multiculturalism as in the federal public service with it's twisted qualifications normally dependent on a variety of skills as been readjusted to include primary qualifications derived from an obsolete minority language that form the base of federal hiring practices.

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/s...;k=9844&p=1

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

Multiculturalism actually highlights the differences between groups while ignoring the similarities, it is also political. My answer is YES.

This is a letter to the editor I wrote a few years back which was published, it is apprapro for this thread I believe.

Canada's identity and culture is no longer of any importance; it has been tossed aside in favour of official

multiculturalism and group rights which has resulted in a trend in this country whereby special interest groups and certain organizations are now telling you what you should believe in, how we should feel, and who we should hire.

The huge mass of immigrants coming from alien cultures has also resulted in what Canadians euphemistically refer to as 'Employment Equity" otherwise known as affirmative action, or, elevating incompetents beyond their level of capability. This in turn has resulted in widespread 'reverse discrimination'.

Canadians have recently been shocked at images of violent protests in support of Milosevic by Serbs living in Canada (I won't call them Canadians). Their support of Milosevic's genocide of the Albanians is akin to supporting Hitler as he marched the Jews to the gas chambers.

Millions of dollars of taxpayers' money has gone into supporting ethnic councils, foreign language newspapers and ethnic lobby groups. Taxpayer funded ethnic enclaves have spawned organized (and often violent) demonstrations, confirming feelings that many cultures bring with them the old ethnic hatreds, passing them on to children born here.

The concept of multiculturalism may invoke a warm fuzzy feeling for the cultural elite, but the left wing have seized on it purely as a cynical exercise to segment the voting market and buy ethnic support (with tax payers' money of course). They have given new and undefined meaning to the word 'racist' to allow it to be used as an emotional battering ram to stifle public discussion and opinion.

Refugees are treated better than our working poor; they receive free medical aid and dental care, but working class Canadians are not given those benefits while the 'intellectual elite' constantly screams 'racist' and 'bigot' at those who don't subscribe to their views.

Most of Canada is not arable, and the majority of people come to the large cities creating further overcrowding, shortage of housing etc.. Canada (and the rest of the world) does not need more people; morepeople...more consumption, more pollution, more environmental problems.

It is time there was a moratorium on immigration until the current economy unemployment rate, and the social fabric of Canada, can sustain additional people. Adequacy in one of our official languages should be

a prerequisite for entry in this country, and these immigrants should be financially and morally responsible for teaching their children English (or French) before dumping them into a school system and expecting tax

payers to fund their language training.

[Argus]

It is time there was a moratorium on immigration until the current economy unemployment rate, and the social fabric of Canada, can sustain additional people. Adequacy in one of our official languages should be

a prerequisite for entry in this country, and these immigrants should be financially and morally responsible for teaching their children English (or French) before dumping them into a school system and expecting tax

payers to fund their language training.

And the front runner in the Liberal leadership contest wants to almost double immigration - for no good reason I have heard of except sucking up to the immigrant community.

[jdobbin]

And the front runner in the Liberal leadership contest wants to almost double immigration - for no good reason I have heard of except sucking up to the immigrant community.

Which immigrant community?

[M.Dancer]

How many statues are there, how many memorials to our great battles and victories and generals?

Why do you ask such ridiculous questions? Do you actually know how many there are or do you want to know? If you want to know, why don't you find out how many? And when you find that the answer is 2,376....will you be satisfied that there are enough or will you set up a trust to build one more?

[M.Dancer]

The flag in question wasn't the red ensign or the union jack, it was the english flag, the cross of st george, which can infuriate Scots as quickly as muslims......

.....and example would be having our usual suspects in a federal prison and I choose to fly the fleur de lys.....

[Argus]

How many statues are there, how many memorials to our great battles and victories and generals?

Why do you ask such ridiculous questions? Do you actually know how many there are or do you want to know?

Perhaps when you get to school, someone will introduce the concept of the rhetorical question to you.

[Argus]

The flag in question wasn't the red ensign or the union jack, it was the english flag, the cross of st george, which can infuriate Scots as quickly as muslims......

.....and example would be having our usual suspects in a federal prison and I choose to fly the fleur de lys.....

Pretty silly example, and completely incorrect. If the flag of St. George was being flown it was because this is England's flag and the prison in question was in England. I am taking a not-very-wild leap here in guessing that prisons in Scotland fly the Scottish flag, and prisons in Wales and Ireland similarly fly their flags.

A more appropriate example would be some Quebec seperatist prisoners in an Ontario provincial prison demanding the Ontario flag be pulled down because part of it is the union jack they despise.

[Argus]

And the front runner in the Liberal leadership contest wants to almost double immigration - for no good reason I have heard of except sucking up to the immigrant community.

Which immigrant community?

Why do you ask such ridiculous questions?

[Leafless]

Depending on how you define the term (I think Kimmy's funny hats definition about sums it up), the U.S. is a de facto multicultural society. If it were not, then there would be no Chinatowns, Little Italies, or barrios. The "melting pot" is primarily symbolic, just as Canadian multicultralism is primarily symbolic.

Canadian multiculturalism is not primarily symbolic.

It's the law.

[M.Dancer]

How many statues are there, how many memorials to our great battles and victories and generals?

Why do you ask such ridiculous questions? Do you actually know how many there are or do you want to know?

Perhaps when you get to school, someone will introduce the concept of the rhetorical question to you.

I'm certainly happy you know what a rhetorical qquestion is....Perhaps you would like me to show you how to use it effectively.

[M.Dancer]

The flag in question wasn't the red ensign or the union jack, it was the english flag, the cross of st george, which can infuriate Scots as quickly as muslims......

.....and example would be having our usual suspects in a federal prison and I choose to fly the fleur de lys.....

Pretty silly example, and completely incorrect. If the flag of St. George was being flown it was because this is England's flag and the prison in question was in England . I am taking a not-very-wild leap here in guessing that prisons in Scotland fly the Scottish flag, and prisons in Wales and Ireland similarly fly their flags.

A more appropriate example would be some Quebec seperatist prisoners in an Ontario provincial prison demanding the Ontario flag be pulled down because part of it is the union jack they despise.

http://www.hmprisonservice.gov.uk/

England doesn't have prisons. Prisons are designated, Her Majesty's Prison and are part of the United Kingdom.......but thanks for the irrelevancy.

[M.Dancer]

And the issue with the prisons wasn't even a flag...it was tie pins and other personal effects.

So how about....Black prisoners in Alabama have some issues with guards wearing confederate and KKK symbols.......

Do you think the prison officials would allow that? Huh?

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/1...ross/index.html

[Leafless]

And the issue with the prisons wasn't even a flag...it was tie pins and other personal effects.

So how about....Black prisoners in Alabama have some issues with guards wearing confederate and KKK symbols.......

Do you think the prison officials would allow that? Huh?

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/1...ross/index.html

What do barbaric Muslims have to with sensitivities?

They still do, to-day, severe heads and promote that barbaric ideology.

"A lot of Muslims and Arabs view the Crusades as a bloody episode in our history," he told CNN. "They see those campaigns as Christendom launching a brutal holy war against Islam."

"Muslim or Arab prisoners could take umbrage if staff wore a red cross badge. It's also got associations with the far-right. Prison officers should be seen to be neutral."

Ha-HA-Ha-Ha-Ha!

[M.Dancer]

What do barbaric Muslims have to with sensitivities?

Orange!!

[jdobbin]

Why do you ask such ridiculous questions?

You stated "immigrant community", I wondered what you meant. My wife is an immigrant. I don't think her vote is dependent on immigration policy. I wonder which immigrants you are referring to? Your statements are so broad.

I think some people thought Ignatieff (among others) was listening to businesses who are asking for more immigrants.

He was also listening to governments. Calgary is recruiting nearly 250 police officers from the U.K. for the Calgary force. They'd like to get 500 or more recruited but it is dependent on higher number of immigrants.

[Leafless]

What do barbaric Muslims have to with sensitivities?

Orange!!

Prove it, asshole!!

[Michael Hardner]

This thread has descended into a sort of surreal vulgarity, but I do enjoy the humour.

Now, back to the discussion ... ?

[Argus]

Why do you ask such ridiculous questions?

You stated "immigrant community", I wondered what you meant. My wife is an immigrant. I don't think her vote is dependent on immigration policy. I wonder which immigrants you are referring to? Your statements are so broad.

I think some people thought Ignatieff (among others) was listening to businesses who are asking for more immigrants.

He was also listening to governments. Calgary is recruiting nearly 250 police officers from the U.K. for the Calgary force. They'd like to get 500 or more recruited but it is dependent on higher number of immigrants.

Ignatieff did not speak of bringing over more skilled immigrants, but more family class immigrants. That's a direct appeal to immigrants who want family members here - however poorly educated and unskilled they are. As for Calgary - any normal city in Canada has no trouble finding police officers. Generally, you get several hundred applicants for every job. I'm supposing they have an urgent, and immediate need of cops without training them first.

[Rue]

Official Multiculturalism should be eliminated before it's to late.

What do you suggest as an alternative?

A return to normal provincial and federal control of minority concerns prior to the 'Charter of rights and Freedoms' along with a form of guaranteed assimilation dedicated to Canadian national values especially directed at any new immigrant but generally encouraged and promoted for all Canadians to harbour.

Ahahahahah. That was good. I can't wait until the Guaranteed Assimilation Police get hired to enforce your new assimilation laws. Hey you there, shave off that beard. You-you are too tanned, stay out of the sun! You, get your nose fixed-too broad. Hey you, off with that turban! Hey you-yah you buddy, I better see you listening to an Ann Murray record the next time I walk by here. None of that ethnic shit!

Oh Canada. Everyone must wear maple-leaf under-wear and have maple syrup twice weekly.

Everyone must drink a Molson Canadian at least once a day.

[jdobbin]

Ignatieff did not speak of bringing over more skilled immigrants, but more family class immigrants. That's a direct appeal to immigrants who want family members here - however poorly educated and unskilled they are. As for Calgary - any normal city in Canada has no trouble finding police officers. Generally, you get several hundred applicants for every job. I'm supposing they have an urgent, and immediate need of cops without training them first.

The Calgary police chief said that there has been some recruitment problems all over the west because the oil industry has been snatching up officers from cities across Canada. Subsequently, several forces are below numbers in recruits. That story was in the Calgary Herald.

As far as family class immigrants, what is the proportion now?

[Argus]

Ignatieff did not speak of bringing over more skilled immigrants, but more family class immigrants. That's a direct appeal to immigrants who want family members here - however poorly educated and unskilled they are. As for Calgary - any normal city in Canada has no trouble finding police officers. Generally, you get several hundred applicants for every job. I'm supposing they have an urgent, and immediate need of cops without training them first.

As far as family class immigrants, what is the proportion now?

I don't know what it was last year. At one point is over 50%, but they've been cutting back over the last 5-10 years in recognition of the poor economic performance of family class immigrants. It was about 26% in 2004.

[jdobbin]

I don't know what it was last year. At one point is over 50%, but they've been cutting back over the last 5-10 years in recognition of the poor economic performance of family class immigrants. It was about 26% in 2004.

I have no idea what a suitable number of family class of immigrants ought to be. I do know Harper mentioned that levels were going to be the same or a bit more. It will be interesting to see some of the new census data sorted out because it most likely show a better picture of the immigration situation in Canada. It may be that family immigration numbers have sunk quite a bit more than 2004's level.

I know that some Alberta companies have been headhunting in the States for front office oil staff but run into problems when the exec they want can't get his family in as well.

I wonder if Calgary when they are recruiting all these cops in Britain is able to get their families in as well. I don't think all of these men and women they are after are all single.